"Fiscal Year 2013 Financial Highlights "

But again...   what percentage of this was subscription and what percentage CS6?

It would make a BIG difference.

Of course Adobe Marketing is going to put a spin on published numbers.  Everything is put out as a positive.

I'm sure that's the reason why they don't publish customer satisfaction numbers.  If you can't put a positive spin on it, don't publish it.  Believe you me, Adobe is gonna keep with subscription models for as long as people keep spending the cost, despite the massive price hike and miserable ala carte pricing.

I'm just wondering how long it'll be before Adobe attempts to creep the cost upwards

It's a good question.

The primary reason for the switch was novelty. The first set of subscribers are already in. The second set of subscribers is the entry-level crowd.

I'm still of the opinion that $9.99 is very good value for PS + LR for stay at home moms and students just dipping their toes into Adobe's sweet waters. As Piracy for CC becomes more difficult, there will be a split between the community (people who pirate because they like to... often the providers of cracks) and those who just plain couldn't afford it, who now can.

The marketing folk are likely looking for the second group to migrate to that exact package. And as someone who also makes the recommendation to the ***MANY*** people that I meet that are in that boat to go legit with that package, I feel that this will continue to bring in droves of people to the CC subscription model.

The PROBLEM is that while it's well suited to these hobbyists, there is no equivalent deal for anyone who exists between "hobbyist" level and "serious full-time professionals" who don't mind paying to stay updated with the Master Collection. Although many of us paying customers exist in that range. And almost NONE of us think about Adobe in terms of 1 month. Or even 1 year for that matter.

I'd like to see numbers for their conversion rates from CS6 Premium Suites to the CC Complete plan.

I'd also like to see their numbers for people who primarily used AI (and maybe indesign).

Heck, even as a guy who got started doing photography alone and used to be quite happy with PS 7.0, I am no longer happy with that because the role of photographer has expanded to include video. Few serious photographers have the luxury of ignoring that and just sticking with Photoshop/LR.

I am system administrator and work with quite a few people who use AI with a little PS on the side and so far, including companies in Europe, Asia, Canada and the US, to date, I have only encountered ONE company that has made the move to CC for AI users. And that was last week.

The next raft of conversions will doubtlessly come when 2 development cycles have passed (probably the 3 year point) and people who ordinarily upgrade every 2-4 years will start looking at their budget and thinking "time to upgrade" and "man, CS6 is getting long in the tooth".

Begrudging subscribers will be the last and least fruitful conversions.

Why Adobe has created a marketing plan where such a huge portion of their target market is relegated to the slowest type of converters and most likely to exhaust ALL possible alternatives before conceding to a payment plan TRIPLE their normal budget is mind-boggling to me.

"As Piracy for CC becomes more difficult,-"

How do you see this happening? I don't use pirated software, but it seems they can crack anything and since the application resides on your own computer, there is no difference from the previous CS software. Perhaps if/when they end upgoing to the "real cloud," then perhaps it MAY become more difficult. Otherwise, I don't see any difficulty on the horizon for cracking CC at all.

As I recall, it was hacked the first day it was released! As an ex-programmer, I have respect for what it takes to write a program like Photoshop and have always paid for it... but I think that day... well, maybe I felt a little bit of joy when CC was hacked so quickly.

(If anyone at Adobe is listening... I have always paid for it... but I will never rent it. It seems that you want me to spend my purchasing dollars somewhere else now. OK, fine.)

CC is a bargain (as far as price goes, not for the fact that you aren't buying something you can own), if you want 1 program, or all 17.  If you want 2-16, you're pretty much screwed over.

For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use.

To be honest, I didn't really look at it, but I would assume that it requires a different method. I do know that the method to crack it was deliberately left open from PS 7.0 or earlier all the way to CS6.

It's one of the reasons why Adobe is considered essential and ubiquitous by so many today instead of just another piece of software like ACD See, ULead, Cyberlink and Corel's offerings.

              - "(If anyone at Adobe is listening... I have always paid for it... but I will never rent it. It seems that you want me to spend my purchasing dollars somewhere else now. OK, fine.)"

Same here. I will NOT rent production software. There will ALWAYS be software that you can own a license because there will always be groups who want to flip the bird to these greedy companies.

             - "For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use."

I don't care what they charge for it - it can be $1 a month for everything and I won't give Adobe one penny. Forcing the customer into a one-size fits all by subscription only is WRONG. They do not care about providing great software, they only care about their revenue. They have realized that they can't compete by convincing us to buy the next suite because they have better features, so the force us to subscribe. No way. Not now. Not ever.

I´m not a friend of pirated software - absolutely not.

(But one can ask in this discussion: Who is the pirate here? Adobe or the others?)

But: As discribed on many web-sites CC is already pirated. There are existing torents.

It seems, it´s only a little bit more difficult to hack than before - but possible.

But: There are discussions, that Adobe "used" piracy-users to get their reputation, their No 1 possition with.

They didn´t really track that & gave away many "educational" licenses without "real" aproving.

Now - as competition grows and gets better and better - they try to change that.

But: Again: Don´t use pirated Software. It´s not fair.

If you (like me) don´t trust Adobe any longer or don´t like the distribution - leave them.
It´s absolutely possible.

Google: Adobe Alternatives & inform yourself. It´s surprising. Overwhelming. Amazing.

For many of their Apps.

I think it's commonly accepted fact that Adobe allowed simple backdoors that never changed from version to version, allowing easy first day cracks. I discussed it with the Adobe rep when I was buying the upgrade to CS6 and he didn't come out and say it, but he basically acknowledged it.

They did the same thing with Photoshop Touch. Although it wasn't as easy, you could download the APK. I discovered this because I got it when that was the only version available and it was somewhat legit because it was in the early stages. Then when I went to try to buy it ($500 phone, $9.99 app, of course I'll buy it!), the play store for some odd reason said my device wasn't able to use it (I was running it at the time). When I told the Adobe rep that I wanted to buy it with my upgrade since my credit card was handy, he said he couldn't and I should just wait. Actually, I hardly ever used it because a fingertip is a poor tool for PS Touch.

Nearly a year later, it still wasn't purchasable for the One X and I upgraded to the Note 3 - which did have a purchasable option. Took me under a minute to eagerly thrust my cash into Adobe's pocket. Why did that need to wait a year?

And "giving away educational license without real approving"? wtf? I tried 7 times over 3 years to buy Educational version Photoshop Standard, even speaking directly with the rep at an education and work fair at the University I was attending. Even when I went back home and took a supplementary course at the University of Victoria, it was virtually impossible to convince them to let me buy an edu version. It took 3 weeks and 4 trips to the campus store to get that sorted out.

As to leaving them, I have a fully legit copy of Adobe Production Premium CS6 and a fully legit copy of Vegas Pro 12. I use Adobe because A) it works better and crashes less (albeit less user-friendly) and B) I work on another computer for much of my video editing and that doesn't have Vegas Pro 12. I used Vegas Pro since version 9 and honestly, I prefer the interface a LOT, but Adobe's Premiere does actually seem to do a better job. Plus I work in an office where we need to cooperate with other partner businesses, printing shops etc. Can't do that without AI.

Good video editing suites are out there, but not that many to choose from. Sure, there's Edius Grass Valley and Avid, but neither of those are cost effective when compared with a computer already fitted with Premiere. And Photoshop. And to a lesser extend, Audition and Speedgrade - both of which I'd like to use, but really haven't found necessary yet.

Adobe does indeed have market saturation. And I strongly, strongly doubt that many of the companies that we interact with are all using legitimate versions.

Aegis Kleais wrote:

 

CC is a bargain (as far as price goes, not for the fact that you aren't buying something you can own), if you want 1 program, or all 17.  If you want 2-16, you're pretty much screwed over.

 

For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use.

The fact Adobe thinks removing choice from their customers is moving the company forward should make everyone take notice (and not in a good way).

CC isn't a good value for myself and many others at any price (including $1 a month) when we have to give up Choice.

It's not really about whether it's a bargain or not for first time buyers.

Anyone looking at Adobe Master Collection is *NOT* a short term buyer.

People who are going for $10/month photoshop + LR often are, so that pricing makes sense - except for the people who change life circumstances. The guy who got me into serious photography has Photoshop from his wife, who was a graphic designer for about 10 years in Vancouver. But then they moved to live overseas, and after some years here, she got cancer. Now she has some long years ahead of her where she's got a lot of time sitting in bed back in Vancouver, where rent is high... Think she might do some graphic design work on the side to help pay the bills? pretty likely.

There's a couple of upgrades in there, but she's mostly satisfied with CS2 or CS3 AI that she has with a single upgrade after leaving Vancouver. That has been sufficient for her for quite a few years and is indeed sufficient for her now.

If she had been a CC user at that time, could she have kept her skills up while she wasn't working in the field just by doing hobby level stuff and the odd bit of freelancing?

Maybe, but it sure as heck wouldn't have been cost effective.

It's just simple math really.

And it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of serious Adobe users currently in existence already have the package.

It's probably also fair to say that anyone considering a first time purchase of a major Adobe package like a Suite or Master Collection *IS* planning on using it for many years.

People don't go out and buy $2500 software packages with a HUGE learning curve for a summer job or a 1 year term. These people are in it for the long haul - mostly looking at things as 5, 10 or 25 year careers. They look at pricing in terms of upgrade paths. Initial purchase costs are almost totally irrelevant.

The pricing may look ok for 1-2 years, but compare it on a 5 year or 10 year term and CC is TERRIBLE value for anyone other than: A) entry level PS users, B) MASSIVELY multi-talented Adobe Djinni with a thriving business (like the Filmriot guys) and C) guys who are in the top end of their industry and have enough income that even the cost of subscribing to CC for 100 years is just a grain of sand on the beach.

Curiously, that excludes: Z) All Suite users, Y) Broadly talented guys in mid-sized businesses that wear a few hats and switch between them occasionally, X) ALL serious amateurs, W) Narrow Talented users in small-mid sized businesses that usually do just one type of task, V) ANYONE who uses CC for more than 5 years.

I was really excited about cc when it was announced, but once I realized your software use ended once you stopped paying, I knew that it was not for me.  I went to college for digital art and media and used adobe cs.  I Pirated software while I was in school (as everyone in my class did).  Once I graduated I bought the software, and upgraded when I could afford to only.  I don't work in "the industry" , I now work as a baggage handler at the airport in one of the poorest provinces in Canada.  But I still enjoy using Adobe software for creative purposes.  If I lose my current job, then there is not much of hope of me being able to afford "the cloud".    I believe that "the cloud" is just a fad anyway.  It would be better for Adobe to go back to "perpetual licensing" but just through download only.  We don't need boxes and discs anymore.  Companies like Apple and Ableton do a really good job of distributing software through "download only"  and they don't require a subscription.  In a few years we will all look back and remember "the cloud".  Oh yea that was a stupid idea.  I'll still be using my external hard drives for years to come.

Subscription pricing models are to help even out cash flow and keep people paying for the use of licensed software.  Using the term Cloud to describe a subscription pricing model is likely a fad, but the subscription pricing model, itself, is not, I don’t think.

Subscription pricing models are also to help thin the herd and keep people from spending $ with a company.

The only aspect of subscription pricing models I like is that it saves me a ton of $ every month since I will never subscribe.

There was a comment here recently where someone asked what you could do to avoid Adobe's subscription sevice. People replied that it is what best to move other to other companies software so that could be funded instead. I agree with that but something else that is equally important and that is to evangelize competitor's software that you really like. I just wrote a review on Amazon where I talked about how much more I liked Sketch then Fireworks and Photoshop (for webdesign.)

http://www.amazon.com/review/R37N9QYFC1JY6L/ref=cm_cr_notf_fhv_prd

It's fine to say that you don't like CC but telling people that there is a great alternatives to replace it with is twice as effective.

Sketch looks interesting. Too bad it's only works on Apple's computers.

Yes, that is true, Sketch sort of has to be Mac based since it's runs on technologies that I don't believe have an equivalent on Windows computers. However this provides a number of advantages:

- The developers don't have to write the program from scratch which then allows them to spend their time coming up with more features or fix bugs.

- It works like other Mac apps.

- When focusing on one platform developers can take the time to take adtantage of the latest hardware. Apps like Pixelmator and FCPX are optimized for the new Mac Pro where the competing Adobe products Photoshop and Premier are not.

I actually think focusing on one platform makes sense these days, I have to say I get a little tired of Apple introducing new tech and watching Adobe continue to ignore adding support for it. I also have no doubt that great competition will keep coming up on Windows as well. I don't use Windows these days so I am not sure what those options are. But if you have a Windows app that you think does a great job let the world know about it on social networking, Amazon, wherever. A lot of people almost seem to hold this belief that Adobe is the best at most things but it some areas (like web graphics) they have fallen way behind and not enough people are aware of this fact.

Below is a great article on Sketch. I not only like the article itself but the Twitter comments that run down the side of it. Several developers on the Photoshop team keep trying to rationalize sticking with PS CC and yet they keep getting shut down over and over again!! Hysterical! They simply can't make a good case.

https://medium.com/design-ux/25545f6cb161

Did you hear the news? Adobe is now pulling the plug on CS6 perpetual licensing... Seems like even that little amount of choice was too much for the management.

If true, it's just another heavy-handed tactic that monopolies use to dictate consumer action.

I'm going to buy a new PC later this year. Will be using WIndows 7 (have been happy with it) Plus, I can just re-install Creative Suite 5. No way in hell they're going to retro-actively rescind a CS5 license. No way in hell I'll use Adobe Cloud. Just too much of a scam.

Please provide a link so everyone can read the news

Where did you here this? is there a link to this news?

Seems like there will be a rush to buy CS6 and that will prop up Adobe's bottom line for another 6 months?, after that the shareholders may see the fiscal results of a terrible business move,

I have been an Adobe user from the very first version, I have upgraded faithfully every upgrade.

Will I ever join the cloud subscription - NEVER

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/enterprise/387724/adobe-to-halt-volume-sales-of-cs6-at-end-of- may

1 app for $20/mo

2 apps for $40/mo

17 apps for $50/mo

Anyone else see a skew in ala carte pricing here?

>Adobe is now pulling the plug on CS6 perpetual licensing

As already posted, that is true for volume licenses to commercial customers ONLY... from the link

"CS6 products will remain available for individual purchase via electronic download on Adobe.com, as well as via licensing for education customers,"

John I just read that part too.. Can it be interpreted to mean that only single CS6 products can now be purchased (and no longer suites)? I'm not a native english speaker so I'm not sure how to read this..

I hate CC as much as anyone, but let's make sure about facts.  Here is what Todd Kopriva from Adobe posted just last week at Creative Cow:

Re: Adobe 2014 Q1 by Todd Kopriva on Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08:13 pm

I have seen a lot of misunderstanding of one part of this, so I want to clarify:

 

The "general availability of CS6 perpetual licensing in the channel" refers to resellers. We are still selling---and will continue to sell---perpetual licenses for CS6 applications and suites through Adobe.com.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------

So, in other words the only way to buy CS6 is by giving Adobe your credit card info even though their website has been repeatably hacked into over the last few years.

Through Adobe's website.

And if you think they won't price the software in a way to entice you to use Cloud...well.  It's basically a cowardly move by Adobe to make themselves the only distributor of the software. Expect a heavy price hike.  Looking at the scale of 1-2-17 that Adobe uses for Creative Cloud, I could see a 6-program CS6 license running for about $2000+USD.  They may even go so far as to retroactively alter the license to prevent people to get upgrade pricing to it.  Remember, to Adobe, you're nothing more than $$$. The only thing creative about CC, is how they think up new ways to cut the creative community's heels.

pik80 wrote:

 

So, in other words the only way to buy CS6 is by giving Adobe your credit card info even though their website has been repeatably hacked into over the last few years.

Yes, but my point is that the guy who started this thread claims that Adobe is completely cutting off CS6 licenses.  According to Adobe statements as of last week, licenses can still be purchased.  If the guy who started this convo has additional info to the contrary, that is important and should be backed up by some actual links.

Andy Bay wrote:

 

John I just read that part too.. Can it be interpreted to mean that only single CS6 products can now be purchased (and no longer suites)? I'm not a native english speaker so I'm not sure how to read this..

I read that to say that if you are a business, you may no longer buy multiple copies at a discount

You as an individual may still buy one of anything on the CS6 page... one program or a suite

http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_c reativesuite6.html?promoid=KFPMZ

A proper purchase scale.

1 App - $20/mo.

All Apps -$50/mo

You can (one time) add 5 program of your choice for +$10/mo so...

1 app - $20/mo. (you choose)

6 apps - $30/mo. (you choose)

All Apps - $50/mo.

That way, you have some kind of middle-ground that is affordable. For what I budgeted for my upgrade, to get the software I wanted, I'd have to do the $50/mo, and that's 100% more than I had budgeted. It's just not doable. But I can see a 20% increase at $30/mo for 6 apps of my choosing (Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, Edge Inspect, Edge Reflow, Typekit Porfolio Plan for example).  If Adobe did something like that, I could bite. But at the same time, you'd have to be able to lock in rates for 1-year (if buying month to month) or at current cost (if buying by years) ie, if I pay $30/mo X 24 months = $720, my subscription could not be price hiked for that long (but all further subscriptions would be at current value at time of purchase).

Of course, there's still all the other issues with source files and the like but...

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

Yes, but my point is that the guy who started this thread claims that Adobe is completely cutting off CS6 licenses.

The thread originator was speaking of going forward, that there would be no more perpetual licenses, CS6 was the last as Adobe chose to screw its customers and offer their software as "subscription only", along with all the negatives of doing so discussed throughout this thread concerning the fictitious Creative "Cloud" offering. Clearly Adobe could care less about it's customers and our concerns.

W_J_T wrote:

 

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

Yes, but my point is that the guy who started this thread claims that Adobe is completely cutting off CS6 licenses.

 

The thread originator was speaking of going forward, that there would be no more perpetual licenses, CS6 was the last as Adobe chose to screw its customers and offer their software as "subscription only", along with all the negatives of doing so discussed throughout this thread concerning the fictitious Creative "Cloud" offering. Clearly Adobe could care less about it's customers and our concerns.

I think we are talking about different people.  I was responding to this comment:

1,617.Andy Bay,

 

Mar 24, 2014 1:36 PM   in reply to pik80

Report

 

Did you hear the news? Adobe is now pulling the plug on CS6 perpetual licensing... Seems like even that little amount of choice was too much for the management.

So my point stands.  If, as Andy is alluding, they are completely pulling the plug on CS licenses, that is news, and as some of us are asking, please provide a link.

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

I think we are talking about different people.

Or perhaps you mis-worded your comment to which I then responded.

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

Yes, but my point is that the guy who started this thread claims that Adobe is completely cutting off CS6 licenses.

Someone whom "posts in a thread" is different that that whom "started" the thread. That is why I responded.

Anyway, carry-on. Carefully of course however, as I am sure Adobe could pull the plug at anytime regardless of news, company comments, etc., since they lied about CS7 before they went Cloud Only, if you remember.

W_J_T wrote:

 

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

I think we are talking about different people.

 

Or perhaps you mis-worded your comment to which I then responded.

Corndogs R Us wrote:

 

Yes, but my point is that the guy who started this thread claims that Adobe is completely cutting off CS6 licenses.

 

Someone whom "posts in a thread" is different that that whom "started" the thread. That is why I responded.

 

Anyway, carry-on. Carefully of course however, as I am sure Adobe could pull the plug at anytime regardless of news, company comments, etc., since they lied about CS7 before they went Cloud Only, if you remember.

No worries W_J_T, this entire CC mess has all of us on edge.  For some interesting commentary, take a look at this thread over at Creative Cow, especially the charts that are posted about half way down:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/7099#7119

Cheers

Great thread at CreativeCow. One thing that kind of shocks me though is that thread appears to have more input from Adobe than this one does.

Other eye openers:

CC went from 400,000 to 1,800,000 subscribers. Perpetual licenses were 12 MILLION+ In what universe is that a success story?

70% of subscribers are full license!

Adobe professionals are still looking at initial purchase price of Master collection as somehow relevant for businesses instead of the upgrade path costs. I don't know of any businesses that have business plans longer than one year that consider only the initial cost and ignore maintenance costs...

Adobe is still ignoring the fact that this "no way out" model that either requires working with outdated software or tripling your budget for the same product means that the only other available option is piracy. Pretty strange since just a couple of years ago they had the single greatest piracy->legit conversion strategy in the industry.

Just canceled my creative cloud subscription. Saddly I am paying the penalty to ditch the service. Still I am happy to get off the Adobe train. I only signed on to it for newer version of Dreamweaver, but only installed Dreamweaver and avoided installing the other products like Photoshop, Ilustrator and Indesign. I didn't want to get trapped into having to keep on the Adobe train and was always looking for way off. I'm pretty sure I have found other alternatives that will work for me. I will just continue to use CS6 untill I can't. Any clients I have, have been informed I will only accept CS6 formats. Seems to be alot of people out there thinking the same thing. Sad, as I had always liked adobe products and will miss them down the road.

Mike

yeah, we had the same thing. Of the 90 or so companies we deal with on a regular basis for exchanging artwork, only 3 of them are using CC and we only had a file we couldn't access because of it once. We installed a demo on a test computer and saved the format to CS6 compatible and have not had another problem with this since.

Two of the three companies I know of that used CC were using pirated versions and have since stopped using CC, reverting instead to CS6.

Interesting that it used to be that Adobe's permissiveness towards piracy and cracks was the key to gaining market dominance, resulting in more paying customers when these people grew up (and saved up)... now their policy towards CC is creating no forward goal for those users to save up for and is rapidly eroding that market dominance that they got because of rampant piracy...

This results in less pirates because of less market dominance.

12 million paying customers in the days before CC -> 1.8 million users with CC -> ?

What's this trend going to look like in 5 years time? Are people going to hang on to their aging CS6 packages?

Will they become part of the slowing trend to upgrade to CC?

Who will step up to fill Adobe's shoes? or will their "Suite" mentality fade away while the fragmented choices take over the market?

1.8m licenses, many of which are on first year promo pricing. When the hammer drops, the pain comes with it. And then, invariably, a greedy monopoly like Adobe will raise rates and put the screws to them even more.