Lightroom Drop of quality exporting to jpeg

[gustup]

Good Evening,

I'm facing an issue with Lightroom 5.6. When I develop a photo and I export it to jpeg the result is far from the original Raw.

There is a loss of quality, particularly in term of noise reduction and sharpening. It seems that Lightroom doesn't take into consideration the changes made in these parameter.

I always export with all the metadata and sRGB Jpeg 80%, but I also tried 100% or Tiff and the result is always the same. When I export photos whitout changes in noise reduction and/or sharpening everything is ok.

I have many photos to be exported jpeg in order to share them with my family but if I touch the noise or the sharpening I'm lost.

Do you have any idea why is it happening?

I don't know if it is related, but it sometimes happens also when I open a photo fullscreen in the Library module. In order to show it properly I have to switch to fullscreen in the Develop module.

Thank you

Alessandro

[Todd Shaner]

Fit of Fill Zoom View settings cause LR to apply a 2nd interpolation to the preview, which can soften the image. Try viewing the Export images at the Pyramid Zoom View settings (1:8, 1:4, 1:2, 1:1). If still experiencing loss of quality using these Zoom settings please provide the following information:

OS version

Camera Model

ISO images were shot

Develop module Sharpening and Noise Reduction settings,

Export module File Settings, Image Sizing, and Output Sharpening settings

A screenshot showing the export image and raw image at same size onscreen using Compare mode would also be helpful.

[Jao vdL]

>I don't know if it is related, but it sometimes happens also when I open a photo fullscreen in the Library module. In order to show it properly I have to switch to fullscreen in the Develop module.

Yes this is related. The Develop fullscreen view does NOT show you the correct noise reduction and sharpening. You can only judge NR and sharpening at 1:1 view. Do not touch those sliders when you are in Fill or fit. Please compare your 1:1 view in Develop or Library (they should be identical) to an exported jpeg that wasn't resized. You should see they are identical when you zoom 1:1 on the exported jpeg.

[Todd Shaner]

Correct–Only use 1:1 Zoom View when adjusting the Develop module Detail panel sliders AND for checking full-size exported images (i.e. Resize to Fit unchecked). This applies to the Develop module and when reviewing images for those settings in the Library module.

When exporting images with 'Resize to Fit' (i.e. image resolution less than full-size) the most accurate preview is obtained using the Library module's Pyramid Zoom View settings 1:8, 1:4, 1:2, 1:1. The Develop module uses a less accurate (but faster) interpolation algorithm, which makes the "original raw image file look sharper than the reduced size exported image file at less than 1:1 Zoom view. The Library module uses a processed JPEG preview file containing an image pyramid (numerical Zoom view sizes) that has the Develop module settings applied. This produces a preview image that is nearly identical to a resized JPEG export file, especially if it is close to 1:8, 1:4, 1:2 ratio of the original raw image.

Depending on your screen size, resolution, and loupe view size (i.e. full-screen) the differences seen my be very obvious or hardly visible. It is most obvious with high ISO raw image files that have excessive Sharpening applied and/or insufficient Luminance Noise Reduction applied. Further discussion here if interested:

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/afm8rbh6tnc31

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

"It is a current trade-off of down-scaled display accuracy versus LR performance."

[gustup]

Thank you both for your replies.

I'm sorry I think I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me.

When I work in Develop I make my changes and from time to time I switch to fullscreen to better check the results of my changes because the loupe view is too small (I use a laptop).

Sometimes it happens that if I go to Library and I watch the same picture fullscreen it is full of noise and/or pixels. It seems it happens after I work for more than one hour or so, in fact when I start working on Lightroom there are not differences in watching pictures fullscreen in Library or Develop modules.

Regarding the Jpeg Export issue, the “bad result” is visible in Lightroom or any photo viewer.

I have several jpeg pictures where the noise/sharpening issue is more visible because I used very high noise reduction values, but they are family pictures with children and I prefer not to put them in a public forum

Please follow the links below to see two samples related to difference in sharpening

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wc50noae6f8na0j/Compare%20Raw%20vs%20Jpeg.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onvvidl0hyligox/Raw%20vs%20Jpeg.jpg

The “select” is the Raw and the “candidate” is the Jpeg.

I guess it better to download them to appreciate the difference in sharpening.

Details:

Windows 8.1

Nikon d7000

First image:

ISO 100

Sharpening 150, Noise Reduction untouched

Export file settings: Jpeg, quality 80, Color sRGB, Limit file size unchecked.

Image sizing: Resize to fit unchecked

Output sharpening unchecked

Second image:

ISO 1600

Sharpening 60, Noise Reduction Luminance 41

Export file settings: Jpeg, quality 80, Color sRGB, Limit file size unchecked.

Image sizing: Resize to fit unchecked

Output sharpening unchecked

[Jao vdL]

Make sure you do the comparison of the two pictures at 1:1. These

differences are tiny and probably caused by a different preview size for

the two files. When you do a compare in Lightroom, the sharpness of the

"fit" image is strongly influenced by the size of the preview built for the

specific file which is determined by lots of factors (have you ever zoomed

in on the image, etc.). Lightroom shows you a downscaled image generated

from those previews in Fit view. The difference between these two images is

probably due to this. You should also see that as soon as you have zoomed

in to 1:1 and then zoom back out, the previews should look very similar

suddenly as Lightroom now has full size previews generated on both files.

It's also good advice to set the standard preview size (catalog settings)

to a number that is higher than your screen resolution. Nowadays this means

that you should usually select the highest number available.

P.S. sharpening at 150 is really extreme. You should never have to go that

far except maybe for out-of-focus images to try to rescue them. Usually

when people get to values that high, they are trying to sharpen the Fit

view in Develop. This often leads to very distorted sharpening and noise

reduction amounts as the preview in Develop for sharpening and noise

reduction is not at all correct for extreme values when zoomed out. So it

is very important to only touch the sharpening and noise reduction sliders

at 1:1 or higher zoom. They are meant to increase pixel-level sharpness,

not sharpness after downscaling which is dealt with by output sharpening if

you downscale in Export.

[Todd Shaner]

gustup wrote:

Sometimes it happens that if I go to Library and I watch the same picture fullscreen it is full of noise and/or pixels. It seems it happens after I work for more than one hour or so, in fact when I start working on Lightroom there are not differences in watching pictures fullscreen in Library or Develop modules.

When you import images LR builds Library previews using your default Develop settings. The images should look very similar in both the Develop and Library modules. Once you start making edits in the Develop module the Library previews are no longer correct and must be updated. If you simply view the edited images in the Library module at less than 1:1 Zoom view they may in fact look different, which is normal. There are two ways you can "update" the Library previews:

Go into the Library module:

1) Click on each image to launch it in 1:1 Zoom view and wait until the 'Loading' icon goes away.

2) Select all of the image files you just edited, go to Library> Previews>, and select 'Build 1:1 Previews> 'Build All.'

Concerning the posted Compare view JPEGs I see only a slight difference in sharpness and no real difference in noise. I agree with Jao vdl's observation and suggestions. You may also want to read my suggestions again concerning using the Library module's Pyramid Zoom View settings 1:8, 1:4, 1:2 and NOT Fit or Fill to get the most accurate preview image inside LR. PS and most other image editors suffer from the same 2nd interpolation issue, so this is not something unique to LR.

[gustup]

Good Evening,

I read everything carefully but I'm still confused.

Let's forget for a moment the Jpeg Export problem and concentrate on the difference between previews in Library and Develop modules.

I just shot a picture with very high ISO for test purposes. I imported it in LR and I didn't touch it, I DID NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES and I DID NOT USE "FIT" OR "FILL" ZOOM.

The standard preview size is already set to 2048 pixels (my monitor is 1920x1080).

I set the image 1:1 in Develop and Library and they are identical.

I switched to 1:2 in both modules and they are still identical.

Then I switched to 1:4 and there is a big difference.

Please have a look at the wall in the screenshots:

Develop module zoom 1:4   https://www.dropbox.com/s/hn7qsbzp93kd4ku/Develop%20module%20preview.jpg?dl=0

Library module  zoom 1:4   https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rf3ipvvbgu1gck/Library%20module%20preview.jpg?dl=0

It still doesn't make any sense to me, if the picture is untouched and not edited I'm expecting to see the same preview in both modules at any zoom.

[Jao vdL]

>It still doesn't make any sense to me, if the picture is untouched and not

edited I'm expecting to see the same preview in both modules at any zoom.

That's an erroneous expectation. Library and Develop can only look

perfectly the same at 1:1 and higher. At any other level, Develop does a

rendering using only a subset of the data. This is to make sure you don't

have to wait several seconds every time you touch a slider even on the very

fastest hardware. Usually this gives results that are only subtly different

and most people will not notice, but it will make in extreme cases (i.e.

high ISO) the preview incorrect with respect to noise and sharpness.

Usually in such cases, the Develop zoomed out view, EVEN at 1:2 and 1:4,

will look slightly too sharp and slightly too smooth because it is

approximating the noise reduction and sharpening with a much lower res

version of the raw file. There is not much to be done about this except for

computers catching up with camera hardware, which is not going to happen

anytime soon as they both follow Moore's law to some extent. The Library

preview is actually more correct in such cases as it is rendered from the

raw at full resolution and then downscaled to the preview size after which

it is scaled again to your display size. Usually the library preview is

slightly softer than an ideal downscaled result as there is no output

sharpening applied but the noisiness is pretty much correct. This is a

consequence of the way the Develop module works in order to keep speed

acceptable.

[Todd Shaner]

gustup wrote:

I imported it in LR and I didn't touch it, I DID NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES and I DID NOT USE "FIT" OR "FILL" ZOOM.

It still doesn't make any sense to me, if the picture is untouched and not edited I'm expecting to see the same preview in both modules at any zoom.

I have to agree with you. The posted 1:4 Zoom Library and Develop images have more of a difference than I would expect to see using LR's default settings. My Canon 5D MKII raw images shot at ISO 12800 setting have less noise in the Library module at 1:4 Zoom view with LR's default Develop settings and the Develop module preview is also almost identical to the Library module.

Can you upload the NEF file to Dropbox that is shown in your post #7 so we can better determine what's happening? Also please provide your LR Develop module default settings for all controls in the 'Detail' panel. There's something else going on here!

[gustup]

Here the original NEF:   https://www.dropbox.com/s/px4n888dxolo1tq/20140822_001.NEF?dl=0

And here the Details default settings:   https://www.dropbox.com/s/waltmv60n5uy7g5/Details%20default%20settings.jpg?dl=0

Jao, you said "Usually the library preview is

slightly softer than an ideal downscaled result as there is no output

sharpening applied but the noisiness is pretty much correct. This is a

consequence of the way the Develop module works in order to keep speed

acceptable."

So I took the NEF of an already exported photo which has a lot of noise in the Jpeg version, I rebuilt the 1:1 Library preview as Trshaner said, and I edited it adding more Luminance Noise Reduction until it looked good in the LIBRARY preview (total luminance value 50). Then I exported it again and the result is much much much better than before, now the Jpeg looks nice, no evident noise.

At the end, in case of noise or sharpness problems, the correct workflow is: work in the Develop module for the editing, look at the result in the Library module after rebuilding the preview, if more editing is needed go back to Develop, edit and check in Library, rebuilding again the preview. When the result in the Library is good I can Export to Jpeg.

Am I right?

[gustup]

gustup wrote:

So I took the NEF of an already exported photo which has a lot of noise in the Jpeg version, I rebuilt the 1:1 Library preview as Trshaner said, and I edited it adding more Luminance Noise Reduction until it looked good in the LIBRARY preview (total luminance value 50). Then I exported it again and the result is much much much better than before, now the Jpeg looks nice, no evident noise.

At the end, in case of noise or sharpness problems, the correct workflow is: work in the Develop module for the editing, look at the result in the Library module after rebuilding the preview, if more editing is needed go back to Develop, edit and check in Library, rebuilding again the preview. When the result in the Library is good I can Export to Jpeg.

Am I right?

No, I spoke too early. It worked very well for some Jpeg pictures, while others Jpegs are still "grainy", "noisy" or "unsharpened".

I will never understand

[Todd Shaner]

gustup wrote:

No, I spoke too early. It worked very well for some Jpeg pictures, while others Jpegs are still "grainy", "noisy" or "unsharpened".

I will never understand

Gustup I can confirm the issue on my Windows 7 64bit system with LR5.6. At 1:1 and 1:2 Zoom view size the Develop and Library module previews look identical, but at 1:3 and below the Library module preview is noisy (Ref. 20140822_001.NEF). This is with LR's default Develop settings as you posted on Dropbox:

To download the below image left-click to open it, right-click, and select 'Save Image As.'

(LR Zoom View Setting 1:4)

The LR exported JPEG looks identical to the NEF in both the Library and Develop modules. None of my Canon 5D MKII CR2 raw files exhibit this issue, even ones shot at ISO 25,600. I'm at a loss to determine the cause other than an issue with the demosaic processing that Adobe has implemented for the Nikon D7000.

[Todd Shaner]

I searched for LR noise issues with the Nikon D7000 and found this post:

Re: LR 3.4.1 does not filter hot pixels from Nikon D7000

It doesn't seem likely this is the cause of your problem (i.e. long-exposure hot pixels), but does indicate a LR issue with this camera model and LR3.4.1. Perhaps Adobe implemented a "fix" in LR 4 or LR5 to correct the above issue that is now causing  this new issue. I don't know......

[Jao vdL]

>At the end, in case of noise or sharpness problems, the correct workflow is: work in the Develop module for the editing, look at the result in the Library module after rebuilding the preview, if more editing is needed go back to Develop, edit and check in Library, rebuilding again the preview. When the result in the Library is good I can Export to Jpeg.

I've never had the need to go back to Develop if the file looks good at 1:1 in Develop. That always was enough to make it work well at other zoom levels. Something else is going on here. Your screenshots above show an effect that is much too extreme. I was talking about much more subtle effects. I do not see the issue myself here with your file. at 1:4 the two views are virtually identical on my MacBookPro retina with LR 5.6. The library and develop previews look identical at all zoom levels and nothing like the extreme difference trshaner shows above. All at default, but even when I dial in extreme noise reduction reducing the bear into a blob of color patches it looks virtually identical. So I am at a loss to explain this except for "this is a bug". This could be the very old bug rearing its head again but only with a very specific camera/OS/display/whatever combination. There was a time around LR 5.0/5.1 where noise reduction would not get applied to exported jpegs (and library previews) when they were downscaled. Perhaps this is that same issue.

[Todd Shaner]

Yeah, it's a strange issue! When I first imported the NEF into LR it looked the same in both the Library and Develop module at 1:4 Zoom view. I selected 1:1 Zoom to make sure the preview was built and then back to 1:4 and it looked good for a few seconds...and then noise "popped" into the image. When switching between Library> Develop> Library modules I would occasionally see the same "good" Library image and then a few seconds later noise would appear. I just went back into LR again and now it's consistently taking ~2 seconds for the noise to appear when switching from the Develop to the Library module with no changes made (i.e. LR default settings). I'm on Windows 7 so perhaps this is a "Windows Only" issue. I've never seen this type of delay in the Library module when 1:1 previews have been built so clearly something is wrong.

You can post a bug report here:

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family

Please include a link in your report to this forum post.

[gustup]

Thank you both.

trshaner wrote:  Yeah, it's a strange issue! When I first imported the NEF into LR it looked the same in both the Library and Develop module at 1:4 Zoom view. I selected 1:1 Zoom to make sure the preview was built and then back to 1:4 and it looked good for a few seconds...and then noise "popped" into the image. When switching between Library> Develop> Library modules I would occasionally see the same "good" Library image and then a few seconds later noise would appear.

Yes, this is exactly what happens to me.
And with some edited pictures the same noise shown in the Library is exported to the Jpeg. EDIT: (Even with photos shot at ISO 640)

I tried to open the NEF of these pictures with the Nikon software ViewNX 2 and I exported them at high resolution. The resulting Jpeg has a good quality with no noise. It seems that in certain cases the Nikon export routine works better than the LR one.

Thank you for the Bug Report link, but honestly I don't know what to write and how to explain.

trshaner wrote: I selected 1:1 Zoom to make sure the preview was built

I do the same and after that I also select "Build 1:1 previews" for the same picture. Sometimes LR tells me immediately that the preview has been built, while in other cases it takes time, it really rebuilds again the preview.

[Todd Shaner]

First you need to clarify the issues. The title you used is 'Lightroom Drop of quality exporting to JPEG,' Using your 20140822_001.NEF file I don't see any issue with the Export to JPEG, which looks very similar to the original NEF at all view sizes inside the the Develop module (see my post #12 screenshot). We need to identify all issues with details for replication before submitting a bug report. Can you upload one of the NEF files that exhibits noise when exported to JPEG and provide the settings you used in the Develop and Export modules?

[gustup]

I don't know what to tell you. I re-exported the pictures and now the Jpeg are good. Is it because I have built the 1:1 previews for all of their NEF? Or because I applied a standard screen Output Sharpening during the export? Or something else? I have no idea.

The difference between Library and Develop Preview at 1:4 still persist in several pictures that had noise adjustment or unedited, shot at ISO 640 or above, but not all of them.

[Todd Shaner]

When exporting it shouldn't make any difference whether the Library previews are rebuilt or not. But anything is possible since we haven't identified the cause, so you may have exported some images previously that exhibited noise...and now they don't!

I checked the NEF EXIF data and you have 'High ISO Noise Reduction' set to 'Normal' in the Nikon D7000 camera settings. When shooting NEFs this setting should not have any effect, but one never knows. Please change this setting in your Nikon D7000 camera from 'Normal' to 'Off' and shoot some NEFs with similar high ISO settings to see if the issue persists. Thank you!

[gustup]

Ok, I put High ISO Noise Reduction to 'Off'. I will shoot some NEFs at medium/high ISO and I will let you know if I get again noisy Jpegs.

Thank you very much.

[BLUE731]

I was having a similar issue of Lightroom vs Output images looking much different...found in another forum that the software/app you are using to preview the jpeg makes a big difference. I was using Windows Preview and changed to the Photos app (Windows 10) and it mad all the difference. Uploaded to my site and they look dope. It may just be your app you are using to view the jpeg?