Pantone color looks different after upgrading Illustrator...?

So, you are sending a Spot color file to what, a standard print driver or are you using a RIP+Print solution?  What exactly are you using as a large format printer?  I am guessing you are using a RIP that does the conversion from Spot 179 to CMYK.  Alot of how color is displayed depends on your calibration and color settings.  However, Pantone has recently reformulated many of the spot colors and has also decided to display color as LAB formulations.  This is creating a stir in the industry where many users like yourself are getting mixed results.  Here is what I would do.  Create a duplicate file and also create a new swatch in CMYK that equals the previous CMYK eqivalents: C=0%, M=  79%, Y=100%, K=0%.  Assign that color to your previous Spot elements on all new files. 

Beginning with Adobe CS6, the PANTONE PLUS SERIES libraries are stored in L*a*b* color space.  L*a*b* is the base color space used in color-management workflow, and should provide far more accurate onscreen simulation, as well as consistency in output using a color-managed workflow.

Prior to CS6, the PANTONE spot color libraries were stored in CMYK color space, which tended to make the onscreen display of colors quite muted and lifeless. 

Wherever possible, you should consider updating your legacy files with swatches taken from the updated PANTONE PLUS SERIES colors, for most accurate color reproduction.

Best regards,

John Stanzione

Manager - Technical Support

Pantone, LLC

I have to admit, after pulling out one of my printed Pantone Solid Coated swatch books and holding it up to the post's screen shot, the LAB version of 179 looks more accurate on screen. I wonder if this exposes a new trend in abandoning official hardcopy proofs in favor of consumerish on-screen softproofing.  I keep reading where users are finding differences in their print proofs in addition to on-screen differences in appearance(s).  I do not feel any more assured, each time you post into ( John Stanzione ) these forums with your explanations of a total shift in just about everyone's workflow(s).  I mean, justifying a huge swing in color reproduction, because color in CMYK is "muted and lifeless" ( last time I checked, CMYK or any other color for that matter has no life, does not have a pulse, and does not walk down the street on their own ).  But, you have to admit, each color is going to appear slightly different on each monitor, calibrated or not.  And, therefore, should never be relied on in critical color decisions.  When you have an accurate color in LAB on screen, but prints radically different, you've bounced the problem from one color space to another.  Couple that with legacy files that printed accurately in the previous workflow, but now does not, you've contributed to a major failure in the color reproduction process.  I've read where other users are trying to re-establish their older CMYK by dumping the + Series in favor of older CMYK swatch libraries because they are unable to find a successful workaround.  You might want to take another look at the logistics behind your decision(s).  At a minimum, users are asking for a solid workflow scenario from you and, to date, I have not seen one.  Perhaps you could release a white paper on the many, many issues surrounding the + Series approach and how it works in older, as well as newer workstations and software.  If you have that document in the Pantone library, please send us a link so we can read it.

I second John Danek's request.

Using Lab values for Pantone solid ink definitions isn't really new. Photoshop has always used Lab values for solid ink systems—Pantone, Toyo, HKS are all Lab definitions in PS.

InDesign CS3 made CMYK definitions optional via Ink Manager's Use Standard Lab values for Spots. The CS6 solid ink libraries always return Lab values even when Use Lab is unchecked. You can get the old solid libraries from earlier versions, load them and uncheck Use Lab and get the old device dependant CMYK definitions.

If you want to use the solid ink system to choose predefined CMYK process builds that simulate a solid ink spot color, you can still use PANTONE + Color Bridge which are defined as process CMYK. The problem with any predefined CMYK simulation is there has to be an assumption about the press conditions for the simulation to be accurate—the simulation might work for US SWOP but does it work for US Sheetfed.

When you have an accurate color in LAB on screen, but prints radically different

If you use the solid ink Lab defintions and convert to CMYK for process printing and the color is wrong, you might question whether the output CMYK profile is correct for the press conditions.

Can anyone tell me why the the same pms color in CC Indesign and CC Illustrator look completely different?

Hello John,

When you asked for "a solid workflow scenario", are referring to a "universal CMYK builds"?.

Like, Rob Day said, CMYK values, without any reference to a print condition is useless and is not a solid reference as for accurate color simulation. About Pantone + Color Bridge, this is the same, there is NO reference printing condition supplied with it. Just words sating that it is printed to" international standards".

I’ve made several tests with Pantone + libraries and I can tell you that I got better color simulation with Lab reference compared to supplied Pantone + Color Bridge CMYK builds. These CMYK builds are not usable with ANY default ICC profiles supplied with Adobe app.

The other problem is the way Adobe makes default color conversions from Lab to working CMYK color space. Users have to be aware about how such conversions are done under the hood (rendering intent, etc.)

Regards,

Louis Dery

Can anyone tell me why the the same pms color in CC Indesign and CC Illustrator look completely different?

Are the colors from the new Pantone + Solid books—when you double-click the swatch in Swatches panel is it a Lab definition?

If you are converting to process via Ink Manager are ID's and AI's document CMYK profiles the same?

I am a designer and have been having horrific problems with the adobe suite since cs6. Colors between programs are off where they were not before and overall all colors seem muted.

Can someone explain why if I look at a PMS color from a real paper pantone book and then choose the exact same PMS color on screen the colors are horribly off.

And yes I do have my monitors calibrated.

Why are we having so much trouble with color. I would assume AI comes already setup to handle PMS colors right?

How am I supposed to save out a .jpg flat of a design and send it to a client if it looks completely off?

I have been having similar issues, and it is causing HUGE problems, and entire job runs are being rejected by the customer. I am not located near the print house, so I do not see the jobs I send to print. Been doing this process for over a decade without issue, now - disaster. Trying to find a solution is quite aggravating, Adobe is not in the least bit helpful, and the only way to get any information is from other users. I used to love Adobe, but over the last several years I have developed a hatred for them that was usually reserved for Microsoft.

Trying to find a solution is quite aggravating, Adobe is not in the least bit helpful, and the only way to get any information is from other users.

Pantone has clarified the distinction between a solid ink spot color and a CMYK process simulation of a solid ink by introducing the Pantone Color Bridge libraries (CP and UP suffix). If your workflow is to spec CMYK color from the solid ink libraries you now have the option to choose Pantone's recommended CMYK simulation via Color Bridge.

The conversion to process via Pantone + Solid is color managed and the best results depend on the correct profile and rendering intent being chosen. If your job is all process and you don't like color managed conversions, start using the Color Bridge CMYK builds.

and entire job runs are being rejected by the customer

No proof?