15 Replies Latest reply: Nov 3, 2014 4:36 PM by Kevin-Monahan RSS

    Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???

    jonny9091 Community Member

      Why would I ever want to intentionally delete an extra frame after my mark? I constantly have to go to the end and back up a frame to get a proper mark out.

      Selecting the clip gives proper I/O marks...so, why does this happen when going to the next edit and marking out? It's completely inconsistent and unnecessary behavior.

        • 1. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
          shooternz Community Member

          I have always found I and O mark the frame as I expect.  (accurately)

           

          I's mark to the left of the incoming frame. O's mark to the right of the outgoing frame. Its logical. You keep the frame that you have on screen.

           

          If you mark I and O in a source clip and the duration says its 5 seconds.

           

          What is the duration when you insert it to the Sequence?  Use the Info Panel

           

          What version Ppro?

          • 2. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
            jonny9091 Community Member

            That's not right. Try to use I/O to mark a clip that exactly 5 seconds long. The duration of your edit will be 5:01. That's because marking the in-point correctly places the edit on the first frame, but setting the out-point marks it incorrectly one frame into the next clip.

             

            But, if you were to select that clip and use "mark selection" to set the I/O...it would be exactly 5 seconds.

            • 3. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
              shooternz Community Member

              Are you marking on the frame you can see displayed?

               

              Where are you doing this I and O Marking?  in the sequence, source or program monitors

              • 4. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                Hi Jonny,

                 

                jonny9091 wrote:

                 

                ...but setting the out-point marks it incorrectly one frame into the next clip.

                 

                But, if you were to select that clip and use "mark selection" to set the I/O...it would be exactly 5 seconds.

                 

                This is a common misunderstanding. If you use the playhead to mark out at the cut, you will be cutting 1 frame into the next clip. That is why when you use the playhead to mark an Out point you must go left one frame, then mark Out to be marking it correctly. Even though it sounds incorrect, it is not. Marking a selection functions properly, but even better is to use Mark Clip because you don't have to select the clip, just have the track targeted.

                 

                ALL NLEs do this. Media Composer has an option if you press a modifier key when marking an Out with the playhead, it will have the same effect as moving left one frame, then marking out. If you'd like to see this, make a request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

                 

                It's good that you found this little quirk. I'm sure there are a great number of editors that never ever find this out and are continually editing off a frame each time without even realizing this. When I taught editing in various trade schools in LA and the Bay Area, this was one thing I made sure all my students had under their belts.

                 

                Thanks,

                Kevin

                • 5. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                  R Neil Haugen Community Member

                  May I jump in? To be sure I understand your comments, Kevin ... cutting the end of a clip with the playhead on it does NOT cut that frame, but AFTER that frame ... so the frame the playhead was on is still IN the preceding clip.

                   

                  It would be like having film in the ol' viewer thingie ... having a frame up on the screen ... and bringing the guillotine down on the divider between the frame shown in the viewer and the next frame on the film-strip. Correct?

                   

                  Neil

                  • 7. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                    shooternz Community Member

                    Its like a "splice" Neil.

                     

                    The concept is easy for us 'old" dudes that used to splice film.

                     

                    Despite being digital...I still think my brain sees linear and mechanically

                    • 8. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                      jonny9091 Community Member

                      If you park the playhead in the middle of a clip and slice/add edit. Is the edit one frame later? No, it's where you have the playhead parked.

                       

                      I know this wonky behavior was in FCP and MC...but it is not in Smoke or Avid DS.

                      • 9. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                        Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                        Hi Jonny,

                        jonny9091 wrote:

                         

                        If you park the playhead in the middle of a clip and slice/add edit. Is the edit one frame later? No, it's where you have the playhead parked.

                         

                        I know this wonky behavior was in FCP and MC...but it is not in Smoke or Avid DS.

                         

                        Make a feature request then. I was just trying to explain the way it works, not advocate for the way it works.

                         

                        Cheers,

                        Kevin

                        • 10. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                          shooternz Community Member

                          Thats correct and as per logic and design. You retain the frame you are seeing with all edits because PPRo knows the difference between I and O and does not expect the editor to think otherwise.  Same with the razor tool.

                           

                          Edit cut point is on the previous or next frame bar depending on the tool /action.. if you want to visualise it that way.

                           

                          If it was working any other way ..editors would have been up in arms about it long before you brought it up.

                           

                          I am not sure if you were aware of the controversial EOF issue that arose.  Its now an option but what it was doing was showing a non existant frame at the end of media.  This was confusing and illogical (to many of us at least)

                          • 11. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                            R Neil Haugen Community Member

                            Shooternz ... I didn't ever work one of those guillotine bits on an editing machine, though I did once actually splice a home-movie of 8mm using a small movie-cutting tool. Yea, my head "sees" like that even though all my video processing is digital in nature.

                             

                            Similarly, though I've spent far more hours playing guitar (and trombone) than piano, I started on piano ... that linear "scale" of the keyboard is vastly easier for my brain to "grok" ... so I always see musical scales in terms of piano keyboard literal keys. Other guitar players I know think that's just ... weird. I can't "see" this any other way, no matter how much I try.

                             

                            Old geezer's ville hear I am ...

                             

                            Neil

                            • 12. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                              jonny9091 Community Member

                              Thats correct and as per logic and design. You retain the frame you are seeing with all edits because PPRo knows the difference between I and O and does not expect the editor to think otherwise.  Same with the razor tool.

                               

                              It's most certainly not correct as far as logic goes to have a program behave differently depending on whether the out-pint is set by click "O" or if it's set by going to next edit...or by selecting the clip. They should all behave exactly the same. You say you retain the frame you see...but you lose the first frame of the next clip. So, even if I click the next edit...and select that as my OUT-point....it's really decided that the NEXT frame is the OUT-point.

                               

                               

                               

                              Edit cut point is on the previous or next frame bar depending on the tool /action.. if you want to visualise it that way.

                               

                              If it was working any other way ..editors would have been up in arms about it long before you brought it up.


                              I see it brought up quite frequently after doing a search. So you are saying that editors really want to have to go back 1 frame every time...and then mark the out-point? Why? I sure don't.

                              The other editor I work with here flipped out about this behavior. Just because it's been wrong for a long time, doesn't mean it's logical.

                              • 13. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                                shooternz Community Member
                                You say you retain the frame you see...but you lose the first frame of the next clip.

                                 

                                I dont understand what you are saying  or doing here.  Why are you talking about "the next clip"?

                                 

                                The out point is the out point. ie the clip with the out point ends there.

                                 

                                I expect to  retain any frame I see on my monitor at head or tail of the clip...when I mark my edit points. ie what is under the playhead is retained.

                                Same applies when I use edit to playhead shortcuts, razor tool, lifts, extracts etc...

                                 

                                The frame I want to see as the last frame... is the one I mark with an "O" edit point. Same applies to the first frame with an "I" and PPro gives me exactly those frames in my sequence.

                                 

                                I have never ever rolled back one frame to mark any edits...so as to get the  next frame  needed for duration or to fit.

                                 

                                Seems to have worked for hundreds of TVCs I have edited... and they must be beat,  frame and duration accurate.

                                • 14. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                                  jonny9091 Community Member

                                  I dont understand what you are saying  or doing here.  Why are you talking about "the next clip"?

                                   

                                  The out point is the out point. ie the clip with the out point ends there.

                                   

                                  You lose the first frame of the NEXT clip after you set an OUT point. Or did you not know this? If you do not back up one frame and remark your OUT point...you lose the first frame of the next clip.

                                  Please read Kevin's response:

                                   

                                  This is a common misunderstanding. If you use the playhead to mark out at the cut, you will be cutting 1 frame into the next clip. That is why when you use the playhead to mark an Out point you must go left one frame, then mark Out to be marking it correctly. Even though it sounds incorrect, it is not. Marking a selection functions properly, but even better is to use Mark Clip because you don't have to select the clip, just have the track targeted.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Or just use the up/down arrows to navigate to the next edit...mark an outpoint...and then zoom in to see what you are really editing.

                                  • 15. Re: Why Does Premiere add an extra frame when marking I/O???
                                    Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                    Jonny,

                                     

                                    jonny9091 wrote:

                                     

                                    So you are saying that editors really want to have to go back 1 frame every time...and then mark the out-point?

                                     

                                    My feeling is that an editor should be using Mark Clip for marking a clip. Every time. That way, editors will never have this issue. Though you can perform a mark clip a number of ways, not using Mark Clip isn't good technique. If you only need to mark Out on the tail frame, then yes, move back a frame first before marking because of the physical make up of the playhead itself.


                                    I'm not sure if you've actually done this, but look at the playhead zoomed in. Can you see that it represents the head and tail of a single frame? It's not a single line which a number of editors think that it is. The playhead has a physical head and tail.

                                     

                                    If the physical makeup of the playhead and its behavior truly bothers you, as I said, make a feature request.

                                     

                                    In my opinion, it's something you merely get used to, make some slight adjustments to your technique and move on. Can you try and use Mark Clip going forward and call it a done deal?

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2014-11-03 at 4.26.04 PM.jpg

                                     

                                    BTW, I marked my earlier post as the correct one because I think it explains the issue a bit better for other editors. Hope that's OK (only you, me, or a mod can change that).

                                     

                                    Thanks,

                                    Kevin