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      • 1,680. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
        FrannieKN Community Member

        What I'm struggling with is if Adobe appears successful, and others follow the subscription model, I'll have to pay a monthly fee to a dozen companies to be able to turn my computer on. As a one-person business, I have a really hard time seeing the upside to that.

        • 1,681. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
          Andy Bay Community Member

          Indeed, did you hear that Microsoft is now planning a subscription model for Windows!

           

          Windows 10 may be the last piece of Microsoft's cloud puzzle | ZDNetfor

           

          Yay! Let's rent everything in the future!

          • 1,682. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
            @tabas Community Member

            Maybe Adobe must to considers offers a perpetual license for customer that has one year paying a license, same as you rent a car for one year with option to purchase a definitive owner license.. I think this is possible.. why? You are being paying for one year and you are a trusted customer.

             

            Regards

            César Qüeb

            • 1,683. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
              pik80 Community Member

              It's funny how at this point it doesn't really matter all that much to me whether Adobe is subscription or not because that doesn't seem to be the biggest problem with the company. The biggest problem with Adobe is that they just don't put out compelling upgrades anymore. Even if Adobe decided to dump subscriptions I still wouldn't give them money for their licensed software either since I keep drifting away to other companies that provide better value like Affinity. From my view Adobe's failure is their current crappy updates not the subscription.

              • 1,684. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                FrannieKN Community Member

                Yes, and I work from a PC which means when they release a fiasco like Windows 8, I'll be stuck with their vision of what I need. If people are tied to paying the subscription fee and MS loses no revenue over their mistake, what will their incentive be to write Windows 9? Kinda wondering the same about Adobe. Bugs come out with every new change, and you don't get the choice of whether you're going to be their beta tester or not.

                 

                I'm still not clear on how they plan on advancing their software without forcing us to upgrade our hardware when their hardware demands more power. Maybe I'll be running Ubuntu and donating to open-source projects by then.

                • 1,685. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                  pik80 Community Member

                  I can't figure out how Windows can hold on to such high market share. I suppose they are starting to lose some of that share with tablets now.

                  • 1,686. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                    Andy Bay Community Member

                    Pik80, many of us predicted the updates would suck in the subscription model, because users no longer had the choice to skip the updates and thus vote with their wallet. So I do think the lack of new features is pretty much related to the subscription model.

                     

                    Checked out Affinity. I love it how they specifically advertise: "No subscriptions, just 49$."

                    • 1,687. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                      pik80 Community Member

                      I don't agree. Adobe went the subscription route right after the updates got lame and people were doing more upgrade skipping. I upgraded from CS4 to CS6 last year and thought the upgrade was nearly worthless. The upgrade was purely for OS compatibility reasons. Now that I have it on a modern computer I can just keep running Adobe subscription free as long as I want and keep buying new alternatives. When CS6 no longer works with the latest OS I will just get a new computer to run the new non Adobe software replacements and just keep CS6 on the old machine. I have done this before, for an example I keep an ancient Power Mac with Freehand on it simply since it doesn't work on my latest machine. Someday my current computer with be the machine that is used for legacy software.

                      • 1,688. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                        pik80 Community Member

                        I also wanted to respond to your comment on Affinity. Yesterday the price was $40 and on top of not paying a subscription you get two years of free updates.

                        • 1,689. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                          Kabinator Community Member

                          The price for a year, and all the programmes a user gets isn't that bad. If it were an outright payment. But it's an annual fee. Why do you ask us to pay so much each year/month? Not everyone can afford it. It's a good way to loose customers.

                           

                          I see the creative fields going similar to how the gaming industry went, only much worse. Games used to come as one. No extras, no micro payments. Now they're coming as a cheap game that you need to spend lots on to get all the extras.

                           

                          In the creative field, at least for Adobe, it seems like we need to spend the money for the program that comes as one, and the buy it new every year. At least give us a discount for continuing our subscription. What we really want is to be able to buy them outright, but if subscription renewal weren't so expensive as buying the license in the first place, I'm sure more would continue to use the software..

                          • 1,690. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                            StormMarc Community Member

                            ADOBE called me the other day.  It was a pleasant lady from India asking me why I have not joined the cloud.  I proceeded to unload on her all of my objections.  She listened politely and then told me she would pass them on and hopefully the company could find a solution to my concerns.

                             

                            At one point in the conversation however she did say that Adobe has chosen to go this route, implying they will stay the course and I will miss out on all of the great new features by sticking with my dead CS6 software.  I countered that as a customer I will choose to go another route and I’m currently looking at alternative software as are many other former Adobe devotees. 

                             

                            My hope is that they come to their senses before it’s too late.  I’m using Premiere CS6 which is a decent program but it needs some improvement like the ones I see in the new CC versions and I will not wait forever if they don’t switch to a more reasonable position on purchasing their software.

                             

                            The reality is that there are plenty of good editing programs available and I refuse to join a never ending software renting scheme with no reasonable way to obtain a perpetual license.  That is my main concern regardless of how the deflecting marketing speak attempts to convince me otherwise.  Even AVID is offering a perpetual license as an alternative to their new rental model.   

                             

                            ADOBE software has gone from a perpetual licensing system to a perpetual payment system and in my view that benefits one party—ADOBE.

                            • 1,691. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                              daric rosenfech Community Member

                              I believe the CC business model is here to stay and to become the new normal in a not to distant future. Someone somewhere must have done the maths and it must be conclusive because Adobe is sticking to it and is developing the concept even more with its new Photography CC package. This tells me that the future LR6 will probably be cloud based only as well. Too bad I will not buy it if that is the case.

                               

                              So...we may not like it (I don't and I am not on the CC for that reason), but I can understand other people's point of view that prefer or value the CC model when they do their own maths.

                               

                              For me and hopefully for thousands of non-professional enthusiasts or teachers that make $0 from using these tools, the CC without the possibility to own the software at some point (basically when I decide I don't want to rent it anymore) is a no go. Too risky as it may become clearly unaffordable and my work may end up being lost after all.

                               

                              The weight of those thousands of people may however be nothing compared to attracting small and medium (and large) businesses to the Cloud model. And if this prediction is correct then the future for the Adobe fan hobbyists is not going to be so great I am afraid.

                               

                              But with any bad news usually come new opportunities. Don't know about designer software and video edition but as far as photography is concerned there are already good enough alternatives out there for the non pros like myself. I do not have to use Ps to make my pictures look stunning (assuming I am good enough as a photographer which is still to be confirmed :-) ). I can use more photography-minded software that do a pretty good job IMHO. Maybe we should let Adobe become a business to business company instead if they want to. That is their choice and their right after all. And maybe us, the non-pro I mean, should stay well clear of their products not because they suck but because we can probably do something good enough, as non-pro, with alternative software already available and already filling a good portion of the gap. And maybe that is the hidden message i.e.: "if you are a pro and make money thanks to our products then the CC model is probably acceptable to you. If you are not a pro, we don't recommend you buy our products at all, period. If you believe the competition cannot bring you the top notch quality that our products are providing you with, you are welcome to subscribe to the Cloud - we are telling you it is clearly not reasonable for a non-pro though but you are a big boy/girl after all so it is up to you. However if you are that demanding a person that you can only work with the best of the best tools out there maybe you are such a perfectionist that you should turn yourself into a professional after all and start making money from it..." how's that sound ?

                               

                              At least that is how I translate their marketing garbage. In other words if we, non-pro, want to use pro products we shut up and buy into their strategy because it is not going to change anytime soon. Again I don't know about the other creative fields so my thinking may be wrong for these but as far as photography is concerned there are other software out there that are becoming truly very good and more focused. I would miss LR though that is for sure but nothing is irreplaceable, is it ?

                              • 1,692. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                eschelar Community Member

                                FWIW, I am a non-professional user who owns CS6 Production Premium and before that, CS5.5 Web Design Premium. (OK, actually, I do work with Adobe software and my Adobe skillset, but on the computers at work - my personal license is for me and I don't make money with it because I make money on computers at work with a different license... that and my photography kinda sucks...).

                                 

                                I paid for these products because I was happy with the direction they were going with $375 upgrades and the new "upgrade from student to non-student license" policy after years of trying to find a way to work $700USD into my personal budget. I used Photoshop for quite a few years via pirating before that when I was much lower on the income ladder.

                                 

                                I have since encouraged loads of people to 'go legit'.

                                 

                                But with CC, the only thing that's halfway reasonable is LR/PS at $9.99/mo. I know a few that fit that budget and usage pattern. I don't yet have a valid suggestion for them for how to deal with stopping the subscription payment and wanting to get back to their work....

                                 

                                But *everyone* I know that works with Adobe professionally simply cannot handle sticking to PS/LR. And there's no intermediate package pricing between that and full on CC.

                                 

                                Insanity.

                                 

                                There's only one thing left for it. Back to the skull'n'crossbones...

                                The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Mine cost me several hundred dollars I could have just spent on video games instead of trying to send some financial good will to Adobe.

                                 

                                I don't know what kind of person can do the math and think it's a good deal to go from $375 every other year (maybe less if it was a good year, maybe more if things didn't go as well as hoped) to $600 every year whether you like it or not *FOREVER*.

                                 

                                Adobe can continue to make a profit from this model as long as they get 1/3 or more conversions to CC - even if their sales of CS6 stop dead. If their sales of CS6 keep going with an equal share to CC, they can get by with one in six people converting. The figures from what I heard were that anywhere between 44% and 50% had made the switch.

                                 

                                They must be swimming in cash.

                                 

                                But one of the things that made Adobe's "don't really give a crap" policy against piracy so effective was that Adobe grew to become a nearly universal standard. *Everyone* in the graphic arts industry uses Adobe - usually several products too. This in turn makes their software more vital and desirable - and in my case, worth paying for.

                                 

                                Thankfully, Adobe retains this policy and pirate versions are still freely available - although signs do point to this policy starting to change as they might be looking at closing some of the old back doors.

                                 

                                Whereas back in the day of PS7.0, CS~ through CS6, people like me were paying for Adobe because we weren't irresponsible kids anymore, now it has become a situation where people are paying for Adobe because it is the ubiquitous standard.

                                 

                                But if their pricing and length of use policy doesn't work for a huge chunk (probably the majority of actual Adobe users, including the vast number of those who use pirated software) of these people, *and* they suddenly close the back doors, you will see Adobe losing masses of market share. If they keep the back doors open, they will probably continue to receive cash from the small number of people who really suck at math for many years as their software becomes less and less indispensible. They will probably cut corners like decreasing the number and quality of updates (already evidenced), but ultimately, if you keep charging more for a lower quality service, people will eventually figure it out. And as the total number of users starts to drop, the software will become less common. This will destroy Adobe's place as a standard.

                                 

                                The story ends the same way.

                                 

                                The question is - will you be the one who paid to support this self-destructive business policy?

                                • 1,693. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                  PaulM-Aus Community Member

                                  I'm a fan of the CC but I'd hope at the end of the day everyone is making an informed, weighted decision regarding the software they use, rather than simply assuming they need it because it's 'industry standard'. If the subscription model no longer offers good value for money or lags behind competitor advances then look elsewhere. There are reasonable alternatives for most of the Adobe lineup, although none that quite offer the integration of the suite. I use the full CC at work because a) we factor the subscription costs into our operating expenses so can justify the price, and b) I believe it offers great value for money for the range of titles it offers (of which we use about a dozen of them regularly). But there's no way I could justify it at home - I stick with the LR/PS deal for my stills and look elsewhere for edit packages. If it's not working for you for whatever reason try elsewhere. And post back to let us know how you found the alternatives.

                                  • 1,694. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                    RobertoBlake Community Member

                                    This is exactly right. I'm sure people can afford it if they stop being naive. It cost $1.66/day average. I'm sure they are spending or wasting that money somewhere. I've been on the subscription for nearly 3 years now and gave my physical copies to family members. I don't need outdated software that can't take advantage of my hardware.

                                     

                                    When you buy software just like when you buy a car, you are buying a DEPRECIATING ASSET that will never be worth what you paid even after the first year, the value will diminish, especially with all the new hardware leaps every year. CS6 is still fairly solid, but performance wise especially if you're a print designer using InDesign it can't compare due to EPUB and 64 Bit in CC 2014.

                                     

                                    The people complaining are just uncomfortable with change. If you're business can't sustain a $60/month expense, that is not you for not being business savvy, not Adobe being wrong in any way.

                                     

                                    If you're a hobbiest not making money you should be using GIMP or Adobe Photoshop or Premiere Element or Open Source anyway assuming you haven't bootlegged it. I'm sure they are finding $60/month for their cable subscription, eating out and going to other things that don't make them any money.

                                     

                                    The fact is they COULD make money of the Adobe software easily if they wanted to each month. At $1.66/day they could just cut coffee out of their life and afford it.
                                    If you still think that Creative Cloud is an issue and you refuse to get over the subscription model and just try it and see if you can live with it and if it improves your productivity I cover the benefits and alternatives in a video below.

                                     

                                    .Best Graphic Design Software 2014 - YouTube

                                    • 1,695. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                      RobertoBlake Community Member

                                      Good businesses shift with the times even when their users don't. Companies that fail to do so end up like KODAK and BLOCKBUSTER.

                                       

                                      Boxed or Perpetual License software in the Creative Services Industry can't scale anymore with how the technology surrounding the industry and the industry itself is working. It's much the same problem with those going to school for Graphic Design. They are being taught by professors that haven't used the latest software or competed in the industry and designed for new technology and marketing trends. This is why many are shifting into online learning from Lynda and Udemy and Kelby One and paying a subscription or going to YouTube.

                                       

                                      The argument is that the competitors aren't doing it, but that is false, they all are following Adobe and just haven't gone ALL IN... not yet. AutoDesk has had subscriptions for a while now and Corel has entered that as well. AutoDesk subscriptions are much more expensive that Adobe and Corel is much cheaper. 3D anv VFX people love the subscription model for AutoDesk because if you think Adobe is expensive you have no idea... VFX is insanely expensive and 3D...::shutters::

                                       

                                      Corel is much cheaper for boxed software and subscriptions, 25/mo and 200/year, but its also less widely used (aside from Digital Painting and Concept Art) and thus doesn't land people who want to work in the Design industry or get Freelance Jobs a lot of money. Clients do care about what software you use. Employers certainly do, because it is a matter of "Workflow" something hobbyist don't really understand sometimes.

                                       

                                      It's simple, if your intention is to be the best like no one ever was, you find a way to make it happen. If you only use Photoshop, guess what it's now 10/month and you get lightroom. That is overkill for a hobbyist. I don't think I've had a hobby that cheap before, even when I played Magic the Gathering.  You could make that money back on a Photo Blog for Christ sakes. Let alone if you snap something for a friend or family member.

                                       

                                      The Full Creative Cloud Subscription averages out to the equivalent of $1.66/day less than $2/day. You could find that in seat cushions, pan handle for it, give up soft drinks or not tip when you when you eat out and come up with that money. It's not a hardship.

                                       

                                      Everyone says this is bad for Freelancers. I'm a freelancer, I've been on the subscription model for almost 3 years, gave my physical licenses to family and couldn't be happier. It hasn't hurt my cashflow because I know how to run my business correctly and the passive income side covers that as well as many of the other monthly and yearly cost associated with running my business. It's that simple.

                                       

                                      If you have problems finding $2/day in extra cash flow it may have something to do with your business model, not Adobe's.

                                      • 1,696. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                        eschelar Community Member

                                        What about users who own a personal copy for personal projects. I use myself as an example. At work, I use the company's license.

                                         

                                        But for my personal use, I own CS6 Production Premium. It was a perfect match for my interests and skillset. I also got to learn and self-improve with it.

                                         

                                        However, in the past 2 years, I've done very little with it. Because of work, I don't have a lot of time to go out shooting much and my camera kit is usually in the office anyhow. I don't mind having software that I have paid for but I don't use it much, just like I don't mind having a camera that I don't use for personal enjoyment that much (I have 4 cameras at this time that I don't use much). But when I need them, they are there.

                                         

                                        For me, switching to CC represents a tripling of cost (assuming a 1.5-2 year upgrade routine - I bootlegged through university, but even still, I only upgraded 7.0 to CS3, CS3 to CS4 and CS4 to CS5.5 (legit) and CS6 (legit)). And this was money that came from my pocket when I felt that I had enough to merit an upgrade.

                                         

                                        Now though, my office copy is CC, and my personal license is CS6. I have told Adobe three times already that I am ready to pay for CS7 Production Premium and will not enter into a CC arrangement because I don't want to get locked in to paying vs *not being able to use it at all* for when/if I might have to do an employment switch or major change in location and money runs low. Of course they will not budge because this model means that if half their users quit, they are still making 50% more revenue, so why would they.

                                         

                                        But do you really think it is worth it to me as a consumer to have to pay 2-3 times more for the exact same service?

                                         

                                        Lots of people can afford it - indeed, at this time, I can probably afford it. But there are some rocks in the river up ahead for me that might mean that within 6 months to a year, I won't be in a position to pay at all. Should I then be relegated to the "sorry about your bad luck, by the way *NO ADOBE FOR YOU*" after having supported the company with my thousands of dollars?

                                         

                                        If you think that's the correct way for things to work, you've been smoking the wrong pipeweed my friend.

                                        • 1,697. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                          RobertoBlake Community Member

                                          You're clearly and intelligent person so I'm sure you will understand what I'm about to say. If you value something, you will pay for it. If you want something enough and value it enough you will commit to a means of affording it.

                                           

                                          I don't work a 9 to 5 job anymore, I'm in a much more cash flow sensitive situation as a result than most of the people commenting on this forum based on what they've said. You're concerned about 6 months down the road, of all people I get that. But you're making a decision about an investment from the fear of lack or the fear of possible failure. "What if I can't afford it 6 months from now?"  Really. Are you planning to afford rent, utilities and food 6 months from now?

                                           

                                          Why plan for failure? Because I know I need to afford things my actions are dictated by that to create the success necessary.
                                          While I can imagine a scenario where I couldn't afford the subscription I've created contingencies to avoid that. And I know there is little chance that once the 30-90 day clock starts that I couldn't turn it around.

                                           

                                          I'm sure you are an intelligent enough person as are most people here that you could find a way to come up with $60.

                                           

                                          The same way you'd come up with $350-500 for a one time upgrade.

                                           

                                          As to NO ADOBE FOR YOU, I'm not on the pipeweed here my friend, that would be you. The bank that covers your house or apartment isn't going to let you skate on loyalty after paying them 10's of thousands of dollars over the years, the same for your car dealership/ car note, electricity company phone company.

                                           

                                          NO COMPANY/BUSINESS OPERATES THAT WAY, and that is why they are still in business.

                                           

                                          Software at the higher end is moving to a utility model, its a painful shift, but I remember all the gripes when Photography went Digital too. All the crying and nashing of teeth from people who invested in wet laps and equipment. We evolve or we die, it can be simpler than that.

                                          • 1,698. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                            eschelar Community Member

                                            I gave a good example of a company that does work that way.

                                             

                                            Canon.

                                             

                                            I pay my money. I get my camera. I wait a bit, I get another one. Great, now I've got a 7D that I don't use anymore because I'm using my 70D for 95% of my shooting.

                                             

                                            *But I don't have to keep paying for it every single month just so I can have the freedom to just pick it up and use it when I do have the time*. Nor do I have to pay $30 to activate it if I didn't have to keep paying.

                                             

                                            In fact, almost every single software company in the history of computers has operated on a non-subscription based model. And lots and lots of happy customers.

                                             

                                            For me, I chose to take a job that suited my technical skills, but because I'm not in sales, I don't get the big fat commission paychecks to buy myself a villa in Spain. And if something happens, I might run into cash flow problems pretty quick. Here's one scenario. I had a bit of a cancer scare recently with some abnormal blood test results. If that had gone a bad direction, I would currently have no work and would probably need to relocate to somewhere where I could avail myself of Canadian Health care and if I'm lucky, my family would help me out. Still, it would leave me with much less cash, most of my "stuff" would probably be sold at a major loss and I'd suddenly be thrust back into the Vancouver cost of living. Based on what I have in the bank and what I know it costs to live there, even without any medical concerns, I'd be down to $0 within about 3 months.

                                             

                                            And the fun thing is - I'd be in no position to get normal work, probably relegated to playing with my Canon cameras to try to generate some feeble income. Except that my Canon Cameras would work regardless of how much money I had recently given to Canon. My Adobe CC software though - not a chance. SOL.

                                             

                                            Now I know this sounds like a lot of doom and gloom and hypothetical worrying - *except this very thing happened to good friends of mine who was a downstairs neighbor to me for 3 years*. Fortunately for him, he was married and they owned a small property. He was able to find good work while his wife went through Chemo. She was an AI buff and graphic designer. He was a professional wedding photographer with moderate skills in Photoshop. While she was laid up with ovarian cancer, she dusted off her old copy of AI CS2 and spent a few months generating a small amount of interest in her work (though no income for several months). If she has been using CC - that old copy would just be "sorry, you can't use this, you didn't pay us".

                                             

                                            Again, they were lucky because they already had quite a bit of cash and they were married, so he could support her. But not everyone is so fortunate.

                                             

                                            This is a sharp reminder to me that if I ever had to hand my balls in a tourniquet over to Adobe, if I hit a health speed bump, I'm screwed. If I lose my current job and have to go back to Canada, I'm very likely screwed.

                                             

                                            This doesn't make Adobe's CC proposition very attractive to me as a long term solution.

                                             

                                            Not to mention the bottom line that I pointed to before: CC on its own represents a tripling of my budget.

                                             

                                            What things do you buy on a regular basis that you would happily start paying triple for without receiving any meaningful improvement in service?

                                            What things do you buy on a regular basis that you would happily start paying triple for that you think would be acceptable to make it impossible (or to be fair, let's say "much more inconvenient") to use unless you visited their store/restaurant or whatever at least once a month?

                                             

                                            Can you imagine if you went to MacDonalds or Subway and suddenly they said "That will be $30 for that meal" (yes, McD's costs about 8 bucks in Canada, 10 with tax), oh and I see you haven't been to MacDonald's for more than a month, so you're going to need to go over there and fill in some e-forms to re-instate your service status with us.

                                             

                                            Why do you think that is acceptable for Adobe to do that to me if I want to use Photoshop to throw a bit of text or crop a snapshot that I took with my cell phone, but I haven't been keeping up with my payments?

                                             

                                            Naw, I bought CS5.5 and 6 out of good will for Adobe because I wanted to go legit and I wanted to support their company for making wise decisions (dropping the cost of their upgrades to $375). Now they are getting greedy, I will not support that for the tiny amount of use I get out of my personal copies. I'll just bootleg it for my home PC... if I ever do a video project for personal use that requires round-tripping from Premiere Pro to Speedgrade... The rest will just have to happen at work on lunch break or whatever.

                                            • 1,699. Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
                                              KeeperoftheGate Community Member

                                              From the FAQ:

                                              Can I purchase a perpetual license for the Creative Cloud desktop applications?

                                               

                                                

                                                No, CC versions of the desktop applications are not available as a perpetual license.

                                               

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