10 Replies Latest reply on Jul 8, 2016 9:19 PM by Roei Tzoref

    rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline

    Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

      Hi. I am using Photoshop CS6 and CC.

      I am looking for an easy workflow for rotoscoping a video (for the purpose of drawing on it to create animated look)

      and came across two different techniques for achieving the same purpose:

      1. frame animation as explained here

      2. Video Timeline as explained here

       

      seems to me the first technique is much more error prone.

       

      I am a bit confused on the proper use of those 2 features - when to use which


      as I see it Frame animation is for:

      1.making GIF'S from your current layer stack

      2.scanning a drawing by hand element that is supposed to appear in a stop motion fashion.

       

      and Video Timeline is for:

      1.real editing with layers moving in different points in time (which really can't see why would you do that in photoshop instead of AE or Premiere)

      2.cell animation with onion skin

      2.making blank video layer over a real one and create a live drawing.

       

      any Insights will be greatly appreciated


        • 1. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
          JJMack Most Valuable Participant

          If one does not licence or have an old Premiere could you come up with a reason or would you shell out money for  Premiere and embark on learning a complex expensive Adobe product when you have no real desire to create videos.  Just want to trim a video you may happen to take once in a while with your Canon 1d Mk4 like me.  I'll use PS or some freeware program....

          • 2. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
            Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

            hey JJ

            thanks for the feedback - that answers the question why to edit videos on PS.

            how about Frame Animation vs Video Timeline:

            could you share when have you found used each feature particularly useful?

            • 3. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
              JJMack Most Valuable Participant

              They are quite different as are the features in each of their Palettes fly-out menus. They serve different function. Frame animation do not support audio. You can also have Photoshop generate frame between frames in frame animations.  You can render Frame animations out as videos then  add these videos into a Video timeline blend them into other videos and add sound.  The two complement each other. Its Frame Animation and Video Timeline.  Not Frame Animation VS Video Timeline.

               

              As I wrote I do not do video to me to do video well takes a lot of work and preparation.  When I was employed on occasion I had to record presentation and install them on video servers and it was work.  I'm retired now work is behind me.  These days I only Play around a bit.  Photoshop as buggy as it is  is still my main toy.

               

              To get an idea of how much work video is some time after seeing a movie read the credits at the end not the Cast and Producers. At the technical personal involved.  More work behind the cameras then in front of the cameras...

              • 4. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                thanks for the reply JJ.

                 

                *disclaimer : this post is an ongoing process. please bare with me - the wording is not perfect and so are the facts.

                8.7.16 - in the process of researching both tools and it's still ongoing. this is so far what I have come up with the summery below:

                contributions would be appreciated

                 

                In a Nutshell

                Frame Animation is a much simpler way of doing animation in Photoshop. it is more intuitive because your main focus is in the familiar Layers Panels and layers behave the way the always do but in a timeline.

                Video Timeline on the other hand is an untained beast - it its much more robust and allows many more options (and in some cases could offer a simpler way of working too as long as you know your way around). you have to get used to the idea of "Video Layers" and your focus will be in the not so easy to handle VideoTime line that without toolbar extensions like "AnimDessin" and "Animator's Toolbar" can be pretty hard to move in a timely fashion

                 

                here is the lowdown:

                 

                Frame Animation

                useful for specific frame control in a sequence of animated frames.

                in rotoscoping this is useful for instances where you want to work with many layers

                thus preserving the capability to change your work with different layers containing different data.

                for instance: hair, face, legs etc. like the following example here

                also efficient in making GIF's like here

                here's an example of using it for Vfx here

                 

                Pro's:

                1. Traditional photoshop kind of workflow so it's easy to step right into it - layers look and behave the same (as oppose to video layers). your main focus is in the layers panel and not the timeline.

                2. easy to make GIFS by changing each layers transformations like here or here

                 

                Con's:

                1. timeline is seconds and not frame rate and each layer has it's own time so you have to select all and change - not very intuitive.

                2.each frame contains all of the layers with only the specific ones visible and position differently (like layer comps) so

                if you are not careful you could make a mess of things by changing visibility of the wrong layers or worse

                so - order, color labeling and grouping is paramount. an example of a good workflow is here

                2. you have to make your own shortcuts since next frame/previous frame/first frames don't have shortcuts.

                3. there is no audio

                4. shortcuts - you have to make your own in the photoshop shortcut menu - and there aren't many keys left....

                 

                Video Timeline

                useful for classsic type of animation - frame by frame with onion skin, many shortcuts.

                has been more accepted by the photoshop community so there is more tutorials, more support, and even extensions.

                much more robust and gives much more control.

                 

                great for drawing on video or classic drawn Cell animation. you can insert a blank video layer and draw on it.

                as explained here and here

                useful resources here:

                Photoshop Animation – Sharing knowledge about Photoshop Animation

                 

                Pro's:

                1. familiar timeline structure - easy to understand and not mess it up. you can change the framerate and work like a real video workflow.

                2. great for rotoscoping on video -  you could insert a blank video layer and draw frame by frame on the same layer making it easy.

                3. great for cell animation because onion skin features are an option

                4. keyboard shortcuts are a click way by changing the panel options to "enable timeline shortcut keys"

                5.even has keyframes for basic motion with video editing (position, rotation, opacity)

                5. there is audio

                6. has useful shortcuts

                 

                Con's:

                1. there is a learning curve - it's more complicated and requires more experience and getting usedtoo.

                2. the VideoTime line is far from perfect - you are going to need extensions since it's not so easy to make some basic actions

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                  JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                  I think you missed the fact that Frame animations can also be rendered out as video have better color than animated gifs.  That the rendered Video can also be edited and have audio added.  Todays browsers have no problem playing Video rendered by Photoshop.

                   

                  Your "2.each frame contains all of the layers with only the specific ones visible and position differently (like layer comps) "  If the not visible in a frame where are they in a frame and layer can had different positions in frames. Frames are rendered they do not contain anything other the rendered pixels as far as I know.

                   

                  This animated gif was create using two layers one with a layer mask.

                  CloudLogo2.gif

                   

                  The MP4 version http://www.mouseprints.net/old/dpr/CloudLogo2.mp4

                   

                  MP4 with sound

                  http://www.mouseprints.net/old/dpr/CloudLogo2Sound.mp4

                  • 6. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                    Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                    thank you so much JJ for keeping this thread alive. I am still in the process of collection the right information. of course that you can render video or export frames as a sequence for frame animation as well as Video Timeline. I should probably make sure that's understood in the post - both techniques can produce high quality video.

                     

                    about 2. - what I tried to say is that a "Frame" is a composition of any number of layers "inside" with their transformations. kind of a "recording" of what's on or off and also position information. it is not the layers themselves. and this requires to keep track to no accidently turn on layer on or move it in one "frame"  instead of the other by mistake. there are also the "Unify visibilty/transformations/layer styles switchs" to deal with that.

                    I will be happy for you to check out my tutorial that uses frame animation to deal with a vfx shot and see what you make of it in terms of technique. I am trying to see if VideoTimeline will be a better option. I had a discussion with Patrick Deen of Photoshop Animation – Sharing knowledge about Photoshop Animation - a site that supports the Video Timeline technique over the frame animation one. he stated that the technique I showed could be pulled of in Video Timeline with only 3 layers and I believe that's true, but this doesn't make it less complicated or gives more control. I am still in the process of researching this and I will add my conclusions to the earlier post (ahh- now I can't do it... I will have to write revise this another way. and maybe make a tutorial to examine both approaches. there really isn't enough information about this.)

                    • 7. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                      JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                      To tell the truth the only Adobe Application I use is Photoshop.  Though Adobe rewards very active members with MVP and ACP badges give both yearly  creative cloud subscription and additionally give ACP users Lynda.com memberships.  I'm 75 and do not want to use a lot of time learning other complex Adobe application.  Though Adobe offered me ACP I do not really qualify to be one for all I use in Photoshop. Its a good thing I would probably be spending too much time on Lynda learning. 

                       

                      So I do not use AE I know some about a few features it has. Still to do video right requires a lot of knowledge and work.  I do not want to spent the time video would demand from me.  So I'll not be reviewing your tutorial.

                      • 8. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                        Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                        cool to know about the badge perks thank you for your honesty.

                        • 9. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                          JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                          The perks are not a secret they are spelled out in the forums information  documentation for all to read.

                          • 10. Re: rotoscoping techniques: Frame Animation vs Video Timeline
                            Roei Tzoref Adobe Community Professional

                            nobody said that they were a secret. trying to stay on topic here but you are making this difficult - this is me being honest. thanks anyway.