1 2 Previous Next 79 Replies Latest reply on Apr 28, 2015 6:55 AM by Todd Shaner Go to original post
      • 40. Re: What is HDR really doing?
        Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

        Thank you Rafael. I can confirm what you are seeing. I reset the bracketed images in the Develop module to my "default" settings and that is exactly what I see in the LR CC Merge to HDR dng file.

        LR Merge to HDR applies the Detail panel settings post-process to the HDR.dng file as above. With LR Edit In Merge to HDR Pro in PS the Detail panel settings and White Balance are applied to the bracketed raw image files before they are merged to HDR. LR Edit In Merge to PS HDR2 applies the Detail panel settings to each of the bracketed image files prior to merge to HDR and only WB post-process to the HDR.tiff. The PS HDR Pro TIFF when opened in LR has no Develop settings applied (all 0). This may explain why the LR Edit In Merge to PS HDR2 TIFF was losing color saturation with the NR Color 10 setting applied using Sync (or Copy & Paste) from the DNG HDR file (i.e. NR settings applied twice).

        • 41. Re: What is HDR really doing?
          Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          After further checking here are the settings applied during the HDR processing:

           

          LR CC/6 Merge to HD

          Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files: White Balance and Camera Calibration settings

          Post HDR Processing to HDR.dng File: Sharpening & Noise Reduction Settings

           

          LR Edit In> Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop

          Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files: White Balance, Sharpening and Noise Reduction, and Camera Calibration settings

          Post HDR Porcessing; No settings are applied (All at 0 settings).

          • 42. Re: What is HDR really doing?
            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            From what Rikk Flor shared and Eric Chan replied in another thread, yesterday, as well as my experiments, to me it seems that:

             

            LR is not applying any of the settings to the individual images before merging them into a new raw file, a linear DNG, then it copies some of the first image's settings to the resulting raw file and shows you those in LR.  If you have Auto Tone enabled in the Merge panel, then LR will do an Auto Tone before showing you the image, but it's exactly the same result as if you'd click the Auto button in the Basic toning area.

             

            Here is the feedback thread I'm referring to, where after reading Rikk and Eric's replies, be sure to read mine at the end explaining why Alex and the Adobe people aren't talking about exactly the same thing which is leading to Alex's confusion:

            Lightroom 6 Photo Merge doesn't take into account all settings applied to nef files.


            There is also another thread where Eric explains how the HDR files LR and ACR produce have 16-bit floating point values stored in them, not the usual 32-bit HDR values, although LR and ACR use an internal 32-bit workspace when manipulating the files like they would for any other HDR files:

            Is HDR really 32-bit?

            • 43. Re: What is HDR really doing?
              Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              ssprengel wrote:

               

              From what Rikk Flor shared and Eric Chan replied in another thread, yesterday, as well as my experiments, to me it seems that:

               

              LR is not applying any of the settings to the individual images before merging them into a new raw file, a linear DNG, then it copies some of the first image's settings to the resulting raw file and shows you those in LR.  If you have Auto Tone enabled in the Merge panel, then LR will do an Auto Tone before showing you the image, but it's exactly the same result as if you'd click the Auto button in the Basic toning area.

              When running tests it can get confusing, but what you state appears correct as shown below:

               

              LR CC/6 Merge to HDR: No settings are applied prior to the merge process. Specific settings are applied after merge to the HDR DNG file:

              Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files:  No settings are applied (Linear DNG Images)

              Post HDR Processing to HDR.dng File: White Balance, Sharpening, Noise Reduction, Camera Calibration settings

               

              LR Edit In> Merge to HDR Pro in PS: Specific settings are applied prior to the merge process and none afterwards to the 32 bit HDR TIFF file:

              Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files: White Balance, Sharpening and Noise Reduction, Camera Calibration settings

              Post HDR Processing; No settings are applied (All at 0 settings).

               

              What's confusing is why the PS HDR Pro 32 bit TIFF file loses color saturation when applying any Color NR. Even a value of Color = 1 causes loss of color saturation as below. The two images look identical when Color = 0.

              LR Merge HDR vs PS HDR2 Color NR 5.jpg

              • 44. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                So do you feel there is a bug in PS's HDR Pro?   I'm not seeing this with an indoor +/-3 EV HDR that ranges from using ISO 100 to ISO 800. 

                • 45. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                  Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Don't know. You're not seeing any color saturation loss when using Color NR with a PS HDR Pro TIFF file? It shows up primarily in the reds. One thing that may be different is the HDR backeted images for this test shot are Canon sRAW CR2 files. I'll test another HDR image shot with regular full-size CR2 raw files and post the results here.

                  • 46. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                    dj_paige Level 10

                    Questions about my first ever HDR

                     

                    Now that I have Lightroom CC, I decided to see what HDR will do for me. It's the first HDR I have ever done. My understanding is that for certain photos with high dynamic range, such as architectural photos where the sun is in a "bad" location for photography, the subject will have its front in shadows and the sky is blown out. So I went out with my Nikon D7000, set the bracketing to take photos at exposure +2, 0 and –2, and this is what I get. Note the sky is blown out in the overexposed and proper exposed shots.

                     

                    2015-04-25 15_39_50-Lightroom.jpg

                    So, when I do the HDR in Lightroom, I find that the blue sky from the underexposed photo appears nicely in the HDR image (see below). I am pleased about this. This matches my understanding of what HDR can do for me. However, you can see that the enclosed porch just to the right of center in the HDR version is still in deep shadow, and the detail of this enclosed porch that can be seen in the overexposed photo is absent from the HDR version.

                     

                    2015-04-25 15_40_36-Bezel.jpg

                    So, my questions:

                     

                    1. Is my understanding correct? Should I see more detail in the show area of the enclosed porch, as I can clearly see in the overexposed version of the photo?
                    2. If I should see more detail in the enclosed porch, how do I make this happen?
                    3. Is a sequence of three photos that are 2 stops apart sufficient, or not? Do I need a wider sequence (and if so, why?)
                    4. If I need a wider sequence, then (this isn't really a Lightroom question but a camera technique question) and I am taking these photos handheld, and the bracketing only allows at most 3 photos to be taken at most 2 stops apart, how do I obtain a wider sequence and yet still hold the camera still enough to allow the merge since I am walking around without a tripod? Or is the only way to get this wider sequence with a tripod?
                    • 47. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                      Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Just shot the same subject with six images with 1EV bracketing using regular CR2 files. I can still see the loss of color saturation with Color NR = 5. You need to have something in the picture with a deep red hue to detect it. See the red-orange beads in the lamp shade and candy wrappers at the bottom left side.

                       

                      Canon 5D MKII 21 Mp CR2 files ( Left Color NR = 0, Right Color NR  = 5)

                      PS Merge to HDR2 - LR Color NR 5.jpg

                      • 48. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Here is a side-by-side of LR6 vs PS HDR.  Besides the PS version being higher contrast and the LR6/ACR9 version having better out-the-window views, the one interesting thing that could explain more what is happening to yours, is that the resulting HDR 32-bit TIF from PS-HDR Pro has inherited those of the mid-tone EXIF settings with both a higher-ISO and faster shutter speed, while the LR6/ACR has inherited the settings of the darkest image which has the low ISO and high shutter speed.  The brightest image had 1/60th and ISO 80 and neither image inherits those settings.  The mid-tone image was first in the set, then the darkest, then the lightest.  I tried things, again, with a different image order (changed the sort order in LR) and the PS-HDR chose a different image settings for the 32-bit TIF.  This could lead LR to use high-ISO settings to reduce noise on an image that has less effective ISO.  The side-by-side you have, above, doesn't show the ISO settings, as it shows the date/time-size instead of the camera info.

                         

                        • 49. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          The initial results of your HDR-Merge operation in LR6 w/o Auto Tone enabled should look similar to the EV+0 shot but with more detail in the bright and darks.  How the HDR ultimately looks is a result of your toning.

                           

                          Is the result you're showing a screenshot of done with Auto Tone in LR, or did you change the sliders after doing Auto?  The porch is about as bright as the midtone image, suggesting you could make it brighter by boosting the Shadows and/or Blacks sliders.  Including your toning settings alongside the image would help answer these questions.

                           

                          Here is a link to a discussion using the same restaurant scene, above, about toning the HDR vs toning the midtone image, with the other person complaining things look about the same so there's no point in doing HDR, but where I'm seeing things work out better with the HDR compared to merely toning the EV+0 image:

                          https://forums.adobe.com/message/7477293#7480040

                          • 50. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                            landoloons

                            The problem seems to boil down to this:  the HDR 'merge' gives you the equivalent of a raw file with a couple of stops more dynamic range.  You can then use the Develop module on this "wider" image.  The Exposure slider then has more range.  BUT it appears that the Highlights and Shadows sliders don't have any extension in range.  Therefore, you can't use them to get more visible dynamic range than you could with a single raw file.   This seems at first glance to be totally half-baked.  

                             

                            I think you can go beyond this by using adjustment brushes, and setting THEIR Highlights and Shadows sliders to bring in that extended range in areas of your choosing.

                             

                            It certainly would be nice if Adobe would confirm or refute this, and add something useful to the Help for HDR, which currently tells us very little.

                            • 51. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                              dj_paige Level 10

                              Is the result you're showing a screenshot of done with Auto Tone in LR, or did you change the sliders after doing Auto?

                              Thanks, ssprengel. The result above contains both Lightroom's moving of the sliders on this HDR photo, plus some additional edits by me.

                               

                              On the HDR photo, the first step in the history is Import, the second step in "Multiple Settings" (which I assume is what Lightroom does, is that the Auto Tone?), and at this point, I agree there is a greater dynamic range in the photo than the original photo with 0 exposure change. So the Lightroom HDR is indeed doing something positive. However, the entire photo at this point is underexposed and I am struggling to get the main building to look properly exposed while maintaining some of the detail in the enclosed porch. Which was what I thought a possible end result of HDR would give me. Are my expectations wrong? Or am I expecting too much dynamic range in the finished product?

                               

                              So here is a comparison of the HDR photo (unadjusted by me, but with the sliders moved by Lightroom) on the left, and this is underexposed to my eyes. Any attempt to make the building less underexposed darkens the shadows and reduces the detail in the porch area. My "final" edit, where the building is more properly exposed, which I provided in my earlier message, is on the right. Even with my disappointment over the porch area being darkened, I would still say that my final edited image has greater dynamic range than the original at 0 exposure change, because the sky is now blue.

                               

                              2015-04-25 20_01_50-Lightroom.jpg

                              If it would help, I have provided the original 3 NEF images in DropBox.

                              https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77800888/DSC_8233.nef

                              https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77800888/DSC_8234.nef

                              https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77800888/DSC_8235.nef

                              • 52. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                You can use Photoshop CC's Shadow / Highlights operator to even out the tone a bit more, although it's beginning to get a little weird looking:

                                • 53. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                  Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  ssprengel wrote:

                                   

                                  Here is a side-by-side of LR6 vs PS HDR.  Besides the PS version being higher contrast and the LR6/ACR9 version having better out-the-window views, the one interesting thing that could explain more what is happening to yours, is that the resulting HDR 32-bit TIF from PS-HDR Pro has inherited those of the mid-tone EXIF settings with both a higher-ISO and faster shutter speed, while the LR6/ACR has inherited the settings of the darkest image which has the low ISO and high shutter speed.  The brightest image had 1/60th and ISO 80 and neither image inherits those settings.  The mid-tone image was first in the set, then the darkest, then the lightest.  I tried things, again, with a different image order (changed the sort order in LR) and the PS-HDR chose a different image settings for the 32-bit TIF.  This could lead LR to use high-ISO settings to reduce noise on an image that has less effective ISO.  The side-by-side you have, above, doesn't show the ISO settings, as it shows the date/time-size instead of the camera info.

                                   

                                  This is in reference to my post #47 Merge to HDR Pro in PS from inside LR. I'm seeing loss of deep red color saturation with Color NR set to a value of even 1 to the returned 32 bit HDR Pro TIFF. The six (6) images are spaced 1 EV Exposure and shot at fixed F8.0, ISO 800, with only the shutter speed varied (1/4 to 1/125 sec.). The returned 32 bit HDR TIFF is tagged with 1/125, F8.0, ISO 800.

                                   

                                  These are the settings applied to the bracketed image files prior to merge and the settings assigned to the processed HDR file inside LR after merge.

                                   

                                  LR CC/6 Merge to HDR

                                  Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files: None applied. (linear DNG files are created and merged)

                                   

                                  Post-HDR Processing: White Balance, Sharpening & Noise Reduction Settings, and Camera Calibration settings from one of the bracketed images are assigned to the HDR DNG file inside LR.

                                   

                                  LR Edit In> Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop

                                  Pre-HDR Processing to Bracketed Image Files: White Balance, Sharpening, Camera Calibration settings are applied.

                                   

                                  Post-HDR Processing: Fixed Sharpening settings (25, 1.0, 25, 0)  and ‘As Shot’ WB setting are assigned to the returned 32 bit HDR TIFF file inside LR.

                                   

                                  No Color NR is applied during the Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop process. My prior HDR Pro 32 bit files have not needed Color NR, but I usually shoot them at ISO 100. The last HDR shoot (posted here) used ISO 800 images, which also do not need any Color NR. However, that may not be at higher ISO and longer exposure times. It would be nice to know why I'm seeing loss of deep red color saturation with Color NR set to a value of even 1 to the returned 32 bit HDR Pro TIFF. I doubt it's a problem with my camera files or LR/PS installation.

                                  • 54. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                    Wolf Eilers Level 4

                                    Here's another posting about what does or doesn't get applied in HDR/Pano merges: Lightroom 6 Photo Merge doesn't take into account all settings applied to nef files.

                                    • 55. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                      Bob Somrak Level 6

                                      DJ

                                       

                                      A little work with the Local Adjustment Brush shadows slider set to 100 makes the porch look a lot better.  Could probably add a very little + exposure also.

                                      • 56. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                        dj_paige Level 10

                                        Bob Somrak wrote:

                                         

                                        DJ

                                         

                                        A little work with the Local Adjustment Brush shadows slider set to 100 makes the porch look a lot better.  Could probably add a very little + exposure also.

                                        I agree, Bob, but there's still something that bothers me here, and perhaps its my misunderstanding, but I thought (and I'm pretty sure I have seen examples) where HDR recovers details from the highlight area (which this example did) and it ALSO recovers details from the shadow area. (which this example did not do).

                                        • 57. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                          Bob Somrak Level 6

                                          I found the same thing on some of my test HDR photos where the available shadow detail does not get recovered.  One thing I don't understand is why they increased the Exposure slider from +/-5 to +/-10 for "LR generated HDR" photos.  I would like to see an example of where this would be needed because +/-5 would not be enough.  For me this just makes fine adjustments to exposure more difficult with no benefit to the HDR process.  I admit I haven't tried HDR with LARGE exposure ranges so If someone has needed the exposure range to be larger than +/-5 I would be very interested in seeing them.  I think what would be helpful is if the highlights/shadows would be expanded out to 150 from 100, at least on the one side that is really needed.  Your photo example and an example on another thread shows that the HDR really reduces the noise in recovered shadow areas.  All that is needed is a little more +shadow and - highlight slider room.

                                          • 58. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                            dj_paige Level 10

                                            One thing I don't understand is why they increased the Exposure slider from +/-5 to +/-10 for "LR generated HDR" photos.

                                            That's something I don't understand either.

                                            I think what would be helpful is if the highlights/shadows would be expanded out to 150 from 100, at least on the one side that is really needed.

                                            yes, me too

                                            • 59. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                              Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Bob Somrak wrote:

                                              One thing I don't understand is why they increased the Exposure slider from +/-5 to +/-10 for "LR generated HDR" photos.  I would like to see an example of where this would be needed because +/-5 would not be enough.

                                              The dynamic range of the HDR.dng is considerably higher than a normal raw image, which is limited to 16 bits (10-12 bits A/D in-camera). The wider ± 10 EV range allows adjusting an image bracket set that is over or under exposed back into the proper range. This also allows applying  separate local Highlights and separate local Shadows settings to areas that need more correction using the Graduated Filter, Radial Filter, and Adjustment Brush. Don't try to combine both Highlights and Shadows settings with same pin. Use separate local -Highlight correction and separate local +Shadow correction and try not to "overlap" the two pin areas, which will cancel each other. You can greatly increase the Shadow and Highlight recovery without increasing noise or other detrimental affects.

                                              • 60. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                Bob Somrak Level 6

                                                I understand the expanded dynamic range of the HDR but it seems like it would be more useful/practical to provide an expanded range on the shadows/highlights than to double the exposure range (for me this just makes it harder to fine tune the exposure)  and to have to use the Graduated Filter, Radial Filter, and Adjustment Brushes later in the process.  DJ's photo is a perfect example. 


                                                I would STILL like to see an example LR HDR where more than +/-5 exposure is needed. 


                                                My needs are minor in this area and  LR/Enfuse has sufficed for the FEW times I have needed/wanted exposure blending although I think Lr HDR will do what I need now.   If they would modify Lr HDR for focus stacking like Lr/Enfuse to do landscape focus stacking than I would be in hog heaven.

                                                • 61. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                  landoloons Level 1

                                                  Every 'auto toned' merge has Highlights maxed out at -100.  That doesn't make sense and can't be right.  Something is missing in this implementation - it seems obvious that those sliders should have more range, in proportion to the extended range of Exposure.

                                                  • 62. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                    Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    Bob Somrak wrote:

                                                     

                                                    I understand the expanded dynamic range of the HDR but it seems like it would be more useful/practical to provide an expanded range on the shadows/highlights than to double the exposure range (for me this just makes it harder to fine tune the exposure)  and to have to use the Graduated Filter, Radial Filter, and Adjustment Brushes later in the process.  DJ's photo is a perfect example. 

                                                    Adobe most likely implemented 32 bit HDR support using the current PV2012 processing routines instead of a complete redesign. The Basic panel Tone controls operate the same as with a normal raw file, but the Exposure control is applied directly to the 32 bit HDR data. This may explain why the range is higher (20 EV vs 10 EV). This is strictly a SWAG based on 45-years of design engineering work.

                                                     

                                                    IMHO using the Local Controls you can go as far as you like into Voo Doo HDR Alice In Wonderland! Here's my originally posted HDR image showing the best I can get with one (1) image file and a six image over-the-top Local settings HDR:

                                                     

                                                    (Click on image to see full-size.)

                                                    IMG_006_LR Merge to HDR_Alice In Wonderland.jpg

                                                    • 63. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                      BKKDon Level 4

                                                      Hi,

                                                       

                                                      No I cannot confirm this because, in my case noise reduction is set to default 0, unfortunately though it does seem to create excessive noise compared to other applications such as Photoshop CS6 (32bit HDR Merge) and other commercial applications.

                                                       

                                                      In my case it was a 5/series 1.25 stops apart (1/80, 1/200, 1/500, 1/1250, 1/3200) and what I have found is that if DeGhosting is applied there are merged areas that have no detail or color after deghosting and also there is excessive noise introduced to the resulting DNG. If no deghosting is applied the resulting DNG has no noise.

                                                       

                                                      Seems to need at least a little tweaking to get it up to the standard of the CS6 megre to HDR.

                                                       

                                                      Don.

                                                      • 64. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                        Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        BKKDon wrote:

                                                        No I cannot confirm this because, in my case noise reduction is set to default 0, unfortunately though it does seem to create excessive noise compared to other applications such as Photoshop CS6 (32bit HDR Merge) and other commercial applications.

                                                        BKKDon what exactly are your referring to that you cannot confirm? LR Merge to HDR creates Linear DNG copies of the bracketed image files with no LR Develop module settings applied. The single merged DNG is then assigned (i.e. carried forward) the settings in the "most selected" bracket image. Also the Detail Noise Reduction settings work exactly the same on the HDR DNG file and effectively reduce any visible noise.

                                                         

                                                        BKKDon wrote:

                                                        In my case it was a 5/series 1.25 stops apart (1/80, 1/200, 1/500, 1/1250, 1/3200) and what I have found is that if DeGhosting is applied there are merged areas that have no detail or color after deghosting and also there is excessive noise introduced to the resulting DNG. If no deghosting is applied the resulting DNG has no noise.

                                                        I just tried using High Deghosting on the six 1EV HDR I posted here and see no difference compared to just using 'Auto Align.' The Auto Align function may be failing due to something that has moved and appears in a different location frame-to-frame. If a tripod was used Auto Align is needed. If shot handheld (i.e. movement frame-to-frame) AND something is moving (car) in the picture that may also explain what your are seeing.

                                                        • 65. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                          Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          dj_paige wrote:

                                                          I agree, Bob, but there's still something that bothers me here, and perhaps its my misunderstanding, but I thought (and I'm pretty sure I have seen examples) where HDR recovers details from the highlight area (which this example did) and it ALSO recovers details from the shadow area. (which this example did not do).

                                                          This is the same issue the OP experienced using three 2 EV bracketed images. It appears that a 2 EV bracket is too much for both LR Merge to HDR and PS Merge to HDR Pro. The LR Merge to HDR image Shadow and Highlight detail is no better than using the single lowest exposure image file (DCS_8233.nef) in dj_paige's example. I've applied the below Tone settings and Local 100 Shadows Adjustment Brush to the dark porch areas in both the HDR image and the single DSC_8233.nef image. The two images look virtually identical so no real advantage other than slightly lower noise using these three 2 EV bracketed images.

                                                          (Click on image to see full-size.)

                                                          DSC_8233-LR HDR vs Single Image.jpg

                                                           

                                                          The Merge to PS HDR2 highlights (clouds) are worse using the three 2 EV bracketed images than the LR Merge to HDR image.

                                                          DSC_8233-LR Mege to PS HDR Pro.jpg

                                                          Ideally the lowest exposure image should have no highlight clipping and the highest exposure image should fully reveal shadow detail with LR Exposure Control at 0 setting. In the case of dj_paige's images there is only slight clipping (good!) in the lowest exposure image DSC_8233.nef and the highest exposure DSC_8235.nef image has fully revealed shadows ( good!). So it's apparent the poor HDR tone recovery is due to the wide 2 EV bracketing.

                                                           

                                                          SOLUTION

                                                          Try using at least four 1.0 to 1.5 EV bracket images.

                                                          • 66. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                            dj_paige Level 10

                                                            I'm certainly willing to give that solution a try on future images, although in another thread several people claim that Adobe says you should use two images, one at –2 and one at +2, which I will probably try tonight.

                                                             

                                                            Which brings me back to my camera technique question ... if I want at least four 1.0 to 1.5 EV bracket images, with no tripod, and a camera whose bracketing at most spans 3 images, how do I do that without risking having poorly aligned images.

                                                            • 67. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                              Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              See my suggestion at the below link for semi-automatically shooting six 1.0 EV or 1.3 EV bracketed images using the 'Custom Settings' on your camera's mode dial (Canon C1/C2, Nikon U1/U2). It should also work with your Nikon D7000. You will still need to turn the dial once during shooting, but you should be able to do that without moving the camera from your eye. For best results use a tripod and camera remote or self-timer shutter release.

                                                               

                                                              Re: Ugly banding in sky (32-bit HDR)

                                                              • 68. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                landoloons Level 1

                                                                I'm still not seeing any logical reason why the Highlights and Shadows sliders can't take advantage of the full range of the merged image.  The limitation on their range still seems to me like a rather obvious bug or oversight.  We shouldn't need to use adjustment brushes to complete the job.   But without them, I'm not seeing anything I'd call HDR in the merged image.

                                                                • 69. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                  Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  landoloons wrote:

                                                                  We shouldn't need to use adjustment brushes to complete the job.   But without them, I'm not seeing anything I'd call HDR in the merged image.

                                                                  Please read my reply #65 here: Re: What is HDR really doing?

                                                                  This is the same issue the OP experienced using three 2 EV bracketed images. It appears that a 2 EV bracket is too much for both LR Merge to HDR and PS Merge to HDR Pro.

                                                                   

                                                                  SOLUTION

                                                                  Try using at least four 1.0 to 1.5 EV bracket images.

                                                                   

                                                                  landoloons wrote:

                                                                  I'm still not seeing any logical reason why the Highlights and Shadows sliders can't take advantage of the full range of the merged image.

                                                                  ......and my reply #62 here: Re: What is HDR really doing?

                                                                  Adobe most likely implemented 32 bit HDR support using the current PV2012 processing routines instead of a complete redesign. The Basic panel Tone controls operate the same as with a normal raw file, but the Exposure control is applied directly to the 32 bit HDR data. This may explain why the range is higher (20 EV vs 10 EV). This is strictly a SWAG based on 45-years of design engineering work.

                                                                  • 70. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                    BKKDon Level 4

                                                                    trshaner wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    BKKDon wrote:

                                                                    No I cannot confirm this because, in my case noise reduction is set to default 0, unfortunately though it does seem to create excessive noise compared to other applications such as Photoshop CS6 (32bit HDR Merge) and other commercial applications.

                                                                    BKKDon what exactly are your referring to that you cannot confirm? LR Merge to HDR creates Linear DNG copies of the bracketed image files with no LR Develop module settings applied. The single merged DNG is then assigned (i.e. carried forward) the settings in the "most selected" bracket image. Also the Detail Noise Reduction settings work exactly the same on the HDR DNG file and effectively reduce any visible noise.

                                                                     

                                                                    BKKDon wrote:

                                                                    In my case it was a 5/series 1.25 stops apart (1/80, 1/200, 1/500, 1/1250, 1/3200) and what I have found is that if DeGhosting is applied there are merged areas that have no detail or color after deghosting and also there is excessive noise introduced to the resulting DNG. If no deghosting is applied the resulting DNG has no noise.

                                                                    I just tried using High Deghosting on the six 1EV HDR I posted here and see no difference compared to just using 'Auto Align.' The Auto Align function may be failing due to something that has moved and appears in a different location frame-to-frame. If a tripod was used Auto Align is needed. If shot handheld (i.e. movement frame-to-frame) AND something is moving (car) in the picture that may also explain what your are seeing.

                                                                     

                                                                    Sorry about that but you had asked a question "Can anyone else confirm that LR CC Photo Merge to HDR is creating a dng file with Noise Reduction> Color set to 10 by default?" and I thought I replied to that.

                                                                     

                                                                    As you can see from the attached screen print the introduced noise in a bright foreground/dark background image is significant. Note that I am not saying that the Merge to HDR process is NOT OK just in some cases it needs improvement and yes, in this case, it was handheld.

                                                                     

                                                                    It seems that it is a step in the right direction but, IMHO, needs a lot more work to bring it up to the standard of other HDR applications to address deghosting and introduced noise.

                                                                     

                                                                    MergeHDR Noise.jpg

                                                                    • 71. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                      Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      The HDR DNG file is assigned the LR Develop module settings in the "most selected" bracket image file. You can of course change those settings in the HDR.dng file and increase the Color and Luminace NR reduction. The Windows Photo Viewer screenshot of the HDR image looks pretty bad and probably won't be helped by adjusting the LR NR controls. It appears that the Deghosting function is removing all or a substantial part of the highest exposure image file(s). This could be due to excessive camera movement in one or more of the higher exposure bracketed shots. Was this shot hand-held? Could you have inadvertently moved the camera when making exposure setting adjustments for the bracket? Does the highest exposure image file (1/80 sec.) fully reveal all shadow details with LR Basic panel> Tone> Exposure slider at 0?

                                                                       

                                                                      The 'Deghost' option is only needed if something "moves" in one or more image files (i.e. person walked into scene and walked out before the next shot). Other than for this purpose it should be set to 'None.' The 'Auto Align' function is only needed for hand-held shots when there is excessive camera movement between bracket images. It can normally be left unchecked (off). I just tried a six image bracket HDR shot using a tripod, but with the shutter operated manually by finger. With 'Auto Align' unchecked (off) there is a noticeable double-image at 1:1 view. Based on this finding I suggest leaving 'Auto Align' checked for all HDR images. It doesn't seem to take any longer and can only improve the image quality.

                                                                       

                                                                      LR Merge to HDR - No Auto Align.jpg

                                                                      • 72. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                        BKKDon Level 4

                                                                        trshaner wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        The HDR DNG file is assigned the LR Develop module settings in the "most selected" bracket image file. You can of course change those settings in the HDR.dng file and increase the Color and Luminace NR reduction. The Windows Photo Viewer screenshot of the HDR image looks pretty bad and probably won't be helped by adjusting the LR NR controls. It appears that the Deghosting function is removing all or a substantial part of the highest exposure image file(s). This could be due to excessive camera movement in one or more of the higher exposure bracketed shots. Was this shot hand-held? Could you have inadvertently moved the camera when making exposure setting adjustments for the bracket? Does the highest exposure image file (1/80 sec.) fully reveal all shadow details with LR Basic panel> Tone> Exposure slider at 0?

                                                                         

                                                                        The 'Deghost' option is only needed if something "moves" in one or more image files (i.e. person walked into scene and walked out before the next shot). Other than for this purpose it should be set to 'None.' The 'Auto Align' function is only needed for hand-held shots when there is excessive camera movement between bracket images. It can normally be left unchecked (off).

                                                                         

                                                                        Yes I assume the same that the Deghosting function is the cause here and for the reasons you set out. The highest exposure image file does reveal all the detail in the shadows as shot.

                                                                         

                                                                        As I said the images are hand-held but this particular set of test images was taken on a windy day so there was a lot of movement in the background. But the Merge to HDR in CS6 handles this well, in HDR Efex Pro you need to select the second highest exposure image as the base otherwise it gives the same result as LR 6, but with other products such as Photomatrix or even Luminance HDR it is fine.

                                                                         

                                                                        In this case, because of the movements in the leaves in the background and some foliage in the foreground, deghosting needs to be applied but you may be onto something there insofar as that it may not handle movement of small objects.

                                                                         

                                                                        All in all it is a welcome addition but just needs to be tuned.

                                                                        • 73. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                          landoloons Level 1

                                                                          trshaner wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          landoloons wrote:

                                                                          We shouldn't need to use adjustment brushes to complete the job.   But without them, I'm not seeing anything I'd call HDR in the merged image.

                                                                          Please read my reply #65 here: Re: What is HDR really doing?

                                                                          This is the same issue the OP experienced using three 2 EV bracketed images. It appears that a 2 EV bracket is too much for both LR Merge to HDR and PS Merge to HDR Pro.

                                                                           

                                                                          SOLUTION

                                                                          Try using at least four 1.0 to 1.5 EV bracket images.

                                                                           

                                                                          landoloons wrote:

                                                                          I'm still not seeing any logical reason why the Highlights and Shadows sliders can't take advantage of the full range of the merged image.

                                                                          ......and my reply #62 here: Re: What is HDR really doing?

                                                                          Adobe most likely implemented 32 bit HDR support using the current PV2012 processing routines instead of a complete redesign. The Basic panel Tone controls operate the same as with a normal raw file, but the Exposure control is applied directly to the 32 bit HDR data. This may explain why the range is higher (20 EV vs 10 EV). This is strictly a SWAG based on 45-years of design engineering work.

                                                                           

                                                                          Well actually I'm the OP. 

                                                                           

                                                                          You're essentially saying the Highlights and Shadows slider code wasn't enhanced to fully support the merged HDR range because, well, that would have been more work.  If that's the case, I guess I'm just surprised that Adobe wouldn't go that extra distance and complete the job, because what they have now seems rather half-baked to me.

                                                                          • 74. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                            Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            What's interesting is that the new LR Merge to HDR has better highlight recovery than PS's HDR Pro. So there's room for HDR processing improvement in both applications.

                                                                            • 75. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                              Jimre3 Level 2

                                                                              You're essentially saying the Highlights and Shadows slider code wasn't enhanced to fully support the merged HDR range because, well, that would have been more work.  If that's the case, I guess I'm just surprised that Adobe wouldn't go that extra distance and complete the job, because what they have now seems rather half-baked to me.

                                                                               

                                                                              To me, this "new" feature seems to work exactly the same way it's worked ever since it was first introduced way back in LR 4.1: you use the existing LR develop module controls to "tone map" a 32-bit HDR-merged image. All controls work the same except the Exposure slider's range is doubled. I seriously doubt that they've changed ANY code on the Develop side of this since LR 4.1.

                                                                               

                                                                              The "new" code is the Merge-to-HDR user interface for creating the 32-bit image - which used to reside in Photoshop exclusively.

                                                                              • 76. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                                Jimre3 Level 2

                                                                                trshaner wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                What's interesting is that the new LR Merge to HDR has better highlight recovery than PS's HDR Pro. So there's room for HDR processing improvement in both applications.

                                                                                Agree. Ever since LR 4.1 - I've also preferred using the LR develop controls to "tone map" a 32-bit HDR image, vs. the native Photoshop HDR Pro tone-mapping.

                                                                                • 77. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                                  Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                  I'm actually referring to the Photoshop 32 bit HDR Pro TIFF back in LR with PV2012 controls. The LR Merge to HDR DNG has better highlight recovery. You can see screenshots in my reply #65: https://forums.adobe.com/message/7486121#7486121

                                                                                  • 78. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                                    Jimre3 Level 2

                                                                                    trshaner wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'm actually referring to the Photoshop 32 bit HDR Pro TIFF back in LR with PV2012 controls. The LR Merge to HDR DNG has better highlight recovery. You can see screenshots in my reply #65: https://forums.adobe.com/message/7486121#7486121

                                                                                    Yep, there's a small but noticeable difference in the photos in your post. Did you generate the 32-bit PS HDR Pro file using the latest PS CC updates? (in particular, the same ACR 9.0 engine that Lightroom 6 uses).

                                                                                    • 79. Re: What is HDR really doing?
                                                                                      Todd Shaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                                      Photoshop 2014.2.2  and ACR 9.0.0.414

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