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Premier Pro & Encore CS6 best graphics card to get

Explorer ,
Sep 15, 2016 Sep 15, 2016

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Hi,

Last year I built a new system for editing 1080p video using Premier Pro & Encore CS6 as follows

gigabyte ga-b85m-ds3h-a

intel i7-4790k 4GHz

16GB ddr3 1333MHz

Corsair cx v2 500w psu

Onboard Intel 5000 graphics 1GB

It is not overclocked, I have tried changing it in the BIOS to 4.2 or 4.3GHz but it still stays at 4GHz, is this some weird motherboard issue?

But it is actually rendering slightly slower than the older i7 we have

i7-3770 3.4GHz

16GB DDR3

Nvidia GT640 2GB graphics card

So the only real difference is the graphics card, but will that old graphics card really make any difference?

But coming onto the main question, what graphics card should I get for the i7-4790k machine that will have the most impact without spending a fortune? Also I'm guessing it will need a new power supply as well

Would we see better performance if we upgraded to CC2015? If so would that need a different graphics card?

Thanks for any info or recommendations

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Community Expert ,
Sep 15, 2016 Sep 15, 2016

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First, read the BALANCED article at Tweakers Page

Not everything uses CUDA... read this

http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/02/cuda-mercury-playback-engine-and-adobe-premiere-p...

If your nVidia card has at least 1Gig of video ram, use the nVidia Hack http://forums.adobe.com/thread/629557 - which is a simple entry in a "supported cards" file... this is for CS6 and CS5, the file is not used by PPro Cloud

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LEGEND ,
Sep 15, 2016 Sep 15, 2016

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People often look at the "guts" of their computer build, and forget the REST of the computer has a large effect on performance also. Which is why John sent you to look at the 'balanced build' info page.

Note ... this includes having fast enough drives to handle the massive amount of constant in/out data movement. Typical "old" style construction like my rig use up to eight drives with internal-speed connections to spread out OS/programs; PrPro's media cache & cache database; project files; previews; media; and exports onto different drives. Mine even uses a twin-SSD RAID 0 for the system/C drive.

With the m.2, NVMe, and super-fact USB3 connected Samsung T1/3 drives available, that's changing. Fewer drives (if more costly) can be built on new motherboards designed to utilize these things that actually deliver better performance with 4k & up media.

So ... your computer specs were rather incomplete for the total picture of PrPro performance. That right there could be the cause of a substantial difference between the two rigs you've got if they're setup differently for drives. Or not ... we don't know.

And for the things that DO use the GPU, like re-scaling, Warp Stabilizer and such, that on-board GPU ... is useless. Totally.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Sep 21, 2016 Sep 21, 2016

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Some more info, I wasnt aware of before, sorry for the continual updates, I dont do the editing I'm just the computer guy

They edit the HD footage in Premier Pro and then export it to Encore which then converts it to DVD format with menus

I read through a lot of that and it says that the GPU will be used when scaling from one size to another, so "Hardware MPE" will help??

What is Hardware MPE? Is that cuda? Or does it just mean a graphics card?

With this system the table recommends a GTX640 - GTX650Ti but they are no longer available where I live, its the 700 series upwards only, GT730, GT740 or GTX750Ti. I presume the GT740 is the newer equivalent of the GTX640?

Which one will speed up scaling from HD to SD with Encore the best?

On this page here - Adobe Premiere Video Cards Benchmark Project vs. a Real Premiere Project- Written by David Knarr  a discrete GPU really helped a "direct export to MPEG2 DVD" but is that the same as using Encore and will it have the same effect?

If I get a new SSD/HDD it will be an internal one as they have no need for portability

Thanks

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LEGEND ,
Sep 21, 2016 Sep 21, 2016

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"MPE" is Mercury Playback Engine ... which uses the GPU if there is a usable one for the code of whichever version of PrPro you are using via setting this in the preferences to "GPU". Or ... if set to "Software Only" ... it uses the CPU for everything.

Many parts of the export/encoding process are CPU only, BUT ... scaling frame-sizes, warp stabilizer, I think Lumetri, some other things (on a list I *should* have the easy link for) will use the GUP if it's seen properly by the program. And therefore, do render/export much faster.

Hardware ... MPE set to "GPU" ...  does mean CUDA, especially if using an Nvidia card with more than 1,000 CUDA cores ... and I'd skip the 700 series and jump to the 900's if possible. With the 1000 series, the prices on 900 series cards are more negotiable. Go for say a 970 with 4gb vRAM on it, and also ... check the number of CUDA cores, try for 1400-plus.

This should help the encoding for MPEG-2/DVD process. For SSD, an m.2 or NVMe internal with PrPro's  cache, media-cache database, project files, and previews on it should also speed up the whole process. Leave the program on the system drive, move the rest of PrPro onto an m.2/NVMe drive, and put in a decent 900 series Nvidia card with 1,000-plus cores and minimal 2GB vRAM, and you may see a significant boost to work.

Neil

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 21, 2016 Sep 21, 2016

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you should be more careful when recommending hardware, especially when the OP's computer won't support a dgpu and pcie ssd together. even if it could, its likely to be overkill for his pc and projects and wasted money. do you know if cs6 supports nvidia hardware mpeg2 encoding? if not the gtx 970 may also be overkill. with the changes to nvidia's new cards, its no longer appropriate to recommend cards by cuda count alone either.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 21, 2016 Sep 21, 2016

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Good points there ... thanks!

Neil

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Explorer ,
Sep 23, 2016 Sep 23, 2016

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Am I wasting my time with a GPU for CS6 then? Will we need to upgrade to the latest version of CC as well?

This was intended to be a small/cheap upgrade

I found a page with all nvidia card details on it and these are the cards I can get where I live along with the GT640 that is in the other PC

      

CudaPSUMem BwidthBase speedBoostRAMCost €
GT 640384300 wattDDR3128 bit28.5 GB/s797/900797/9002GBVersion 1
GT 640144350 wattDDR3192 bit43 GB/s720 MHz1440MHz2GBVersion 2
GT 640384350 wattDDR5128 bit80 GB/s950 MHz950 MHz2GBVersion 3
GTX750Ti640300 wattDDR5128 bit86.4 GB/s1020 Mhz1085 Mhz2GB155
GTX 950768350 wattDDR5128 bit105.6 GB/s1024 MHz1188 MHz2GB220
GTX 9601024400 wattDDR5128 bit112 GB/s1127 MHz1178 MHz2GB258
GTX 9701644500 wattDDR5256 bit224 GB/s1050 MHz1178 MHz4GB450
GTX-10601280400 wattGDDR5192 bit192 GB/s1506 MHz1708 MHz6GB375+
GTX-10701920500 wattGDDR5256 bit256 GB/s1506 MHz1683 MHz8GB600+
GTX-10802560500 wattGDDR5256 bit320 GB/s1607 MHz1733 MHz8GB900+

Which one is best to go with the rest of our system?

Will we need to upgarde premier pro as well to get the full benefit?

I'm guessing without another dedicated SSD there is no point going above a certain model as the HDD will then be the bottleneck?

Thanks again

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2016 Sep 23, 2016

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If you are just buying for today I guess I would suggest the GTX 750 Ti.  If you are thinking long term life time then I would suggest the GTX 1060.  You can pull the GTX 1060 out and put it in you next major upgrade where the GTX 750 Ti is essentially Dead-On-Arrival.

Unless there are features in CC that you essentially need there is no reason to abandon CS6.  Yes there are features in CC that do improve performance a little.  But once you subscriber to CC and work in it you have to keep paying forever or loose your projects,  CS6 is pay once and own it forever.

Adding Hard Disk drives is a waste of time and money with the cost of SSD's dropping fast.

I would try to do some more shopping if for instance you opted to go that way.  My GTX 1060 6 GB card cost me USD $259 versus your card which is USD $421.  That is outrageous.  Check to see if these USA people can ship you a great GTX 1060 and what the cost might be.

..

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 23, 2016 Sep 23, 2016

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there are lots of system monitor tools to see what the computer hardware is doing while editing or exporting, to identify possible bottlenecks with a typical premiere project for your editors/computers. windows task manager, windows resource monitor, and gpu-z are some decent free ones. i would check what the gt 640 is doing on the i7-3770 computer while editing and exporting, to gauge what kind of upgrade you might need on the i7-4790k system. since you mention the export times are somewhat similar, i would guess that the gt 640 isn't being maxed out and a gtx 750 ti might be a good option for the i7-4790k computer.

i wouldn't link the gpu and hdd/ssd together as a bottleneck like you ask, it would more likely be the cpu vs hdd/ssd. if you find the cpu and gpu usage are medium to low while exporting, there might be a hardware bottleneck like the hdd or software like something in premiere causing it. using system monitoring tools to see if the hdd isn't keeping up with premiere's demands would help give you an idea if a ssd upgrade might help the export. for SD/HD footage, a ssd might only make the editing experience making jumping around on the timeline to different clips more responsive, but might not improve export times.

the Corsair cx v2 500w psu should have enough power and a 6pin pcie connector for a new video card, but if you need the computer to be reliable i would replace it with a quality psu or have a spare quality psu on hand.

some people have claimed that premiere can use the nvidia gpu to encode mpeg2 and it helps speed up the export, but i cannot confirm that and i'm unaware of which version of premiere it might have been added. adobe's website still claims the gpu is not used to encode, even for mpeg2. even if premiere cc was able to gpu encode mpeg2, the amount of downtime from cc's buggy software will likely overshadow any gained performance from premiere cc. i would rather put that money into a hardware or computer upgrade for a performance upgrade.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2016 Sep 23, 2016

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RoninEdits wrote:

some people have claimed that premiere can use the nvidia gpu to encode mpeg2 and it helps speed up the export, but i cannot confirm that and i'm unaware of which version of premiere it might have been added. adobe's website still claims the gpu is not used to encode, even for mpeg2. even if premiere cc was able to gpu encode mpeg2,

Quote from bobj......"They edit the HD footage in Premier Pro and then export it to Encore which then converts it to DVD format with menus"

One of our four Premiere Pro benchmark tests is not that exact scenario as it is a direct export from Premiere export from a 1920 x 1020 HD media to MPEG2-DVD shows major usage of the GPU and actually if you turn off the GPU usage for instqnce on tyhis i7-4700HQ 24 GB laptop with a GTX 765M CPU the time that it takes is 285 seconds for the bolow export.  With the GPU acceleration enabled it take 30 seconds.  Now, I do not know how much time if any it the export process and how much is due the scaling and scan rate conversion and other MPE accelerated features and effects.

How do you export?

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Explorer ,
Sep 26, 2016 Sep 26, 2016

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Many thanks for everyones helpful replies, you have certainly helped a lot.

The 750Ti doesn't even need exernal power so I think that is the route we will go for the moment but I will certainly check to see if I can find the 1060 cheaper

Once again, thanks!!

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LEGEND ,
Sep 26, 2016 Sep 26, 2016

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bobj82408811 wrote:

They edit the HD footage in Premier Pro and then export it to Encore which then converts it to DVD format with menus

I'm sorry to say this, but Encore does not use the GPU at all for transcoding from HD to MPEG-2 DVD. The transcoding (conversion) is done entirely in software-only mode in Encore - and you cannot enable MRQ (Maximum Render Quality) at all.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 26, 2016 Sep 26, 2016

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Randall is correct.  Unless you convert in Premiere to MPEG2-DVD you will not get any GPU usage/acceleration/

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Explorer ,
Sep 27, 2016 Sep 27, 2016

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OK, so if the GPU is not used by Encore, what could be producing the performance difference between the two machines?

The only real difference is the hard drive setup,

in the older one there are two hard drives, one for raw capture files and one for the output render files

in the newer one there is just one hard drive for all data files

I have told them to do a test project and render to the SSD to see if that makes any difference

Could it be something to do with the motherboard as the 4790k beats the 3770 by around 20% in every benchmark I've seen

Also I have just found this post where someone was encoding with WMV and experienced slower speeds with the 4790k over the 3770, but it looks like that was GPU related - Video Editing Core i7-3770K vs Intel Core i7-4790K and WMV [Solved] - Intel i7 - CPUs

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 27, 2016 Sep 27, 2016

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is the performance difference in premiere or encore or both? if its only premiere its most likely the video card, which is why there are so many posts about the video card upgrade. did you look at the gpu usage in both machines to see whats happening? the igpu in the i7-4790k is about half the speed of the gt 640. if encore is slower, then your drive test is good. you could also use a cpu benchmark program like cinebench to see if somehow the i7-4790k is running slower, and check temps on the i7-4790k while your at it too...

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Explorer ,
Sep 28, 2016 Sep 28, 2016

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What I'm going to do is to get the same project on both machines and start them at the same time then monitor CPU, GPU etc and try and work out when the new one loses time. I'll post an update when I have done this

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Explorer ,
Oct 05, 2016 Oct 05, 2016

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Well I've found out why the 4790k is going slower, as soon as I started the render the temperatures ramped up to 90C+ and the CPU was throttled back to 3.7GHz.

It has the standard Intel heatsink and fan fitted that it came with, but I cant believe Intel have supplied a fan that doesnt let the CPU run to its full potential, must be somethign wrong there!!

Ive reapplied some new thermal paste but it still does the same when I max out the CPU with prime95, seems rather weird to me, I've never had this problem with a stock HS & fan before

Also on the 3770 I enabled the cuda and it took about twice as long to export to MPEG2 DVD than it did without it enabled.

Without cuda enabled GPU was at 20% (always seemed to be at that when Premier Pro was open) and  CPU at 100%

With cuda enabled GPU was at 100% but CPU dropped to around 40-60%

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Valorous Hero ,
Oct 05, 2016 Oct 05, 2016

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the 4790k has a 95w tdp. the new 95w unlocked cpu's don't even come with the intel heatsink anymore. i think the intel heatsink can work if the case airflow is high enough, but the intel heatsink is a poor heatsink and its best to replace it with a better/larger cooler. noctua and cryorig 120/140mm are decent coolers that have quiet fans. if the computer only has one case fan, you could try adding another.

i'm not sure whats going on with the 3770 and mpeg2 encode. if i were to guess, i'd say with cuda enabled premiere is trying to use the gt 640 to encode mpeg2 and maxes it at 100%, and since its a weak gpu its actually slower than having the cpu handle the encoding. that would also explain why the cpu usage is lower as its doesn't have as much work to do, its mostly waiting on the gpu to encode the video.

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Explorer ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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Its the first time I've ever had to replace the stock fan on a non overclocked system, really bad from Intel. I am going to get a Zalmann CNPS9900 MAX tomorrow

Yeah I think youre right about the GT640, thats the conclusion I came to as well.

Hopefully this should be sorted now with the most simple solution ever, but I've certainly learnt a lot!!!!

Thanks for everyones help and hopefully my post tomorrow will be the final one

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LEGEND ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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My builder always puts a hefty cooler ... liquid piped to an external radiator ... so the CPU can stay at top speed indefinitely. Stock coolers just can't handle that kind of performance outta the CPU. Besides video post-processing, about the only thing that rags out a CPU like that is gaming. So why would the stock cooler be built for a "rare" use level? At least, to him it all makes perfect sense.

But you want that CPU to be able to sit at 95% and above utilization for hours. It won't always be doing that, of course ... but when you want it to, well ... it's gotta have the guts to do it.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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Liquid cooling is just a waste of money unless youre overclocking

A stock fan should be able to adequately cool the CPU its supplied with otherwise what is the point of supplying the fan?? "This fan is OK as long as you dont max out the CPU".......

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LEGEND ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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Well, my CPU doesn't get nearly so hot to slow or shut down ... so just maybe it's not a waste of money if one actually wants to work it hard. Just maybe, you know.

Told my builder about your comments about stock fans should be adequate ... he just howled with laughter for a while. He's built a ton of gamer rigs, some over-clocked, some not, and says he's never had one that didn't go into dangerous territories while gaming with stock fans. And he uses cases with extra fans & exhaust/intake panels too. Several drives, a decently major graphics card or two, and a multi-core CPU running at above 80% for extended times, it's gonna get warm.

As he noted, the ​massive​ block heat-sinks are great at start-up or for short high-CPU loads, as they have great transfer capability. However, for sustained load, they can't shunt off as much heat on a constant basis. Which is why for most rigs he builds he runs water-coolers.

The stock fans can handle a steady moderate load, but simply cannot move the heat that a CPU can generate under max load that simply goes on and on. For all but specialized users, that type of load just doesn't occur. Ergo, why build the cooling system for the chip as "standard" that will only be needed by 5% ... at ​most​ ... of the users of that chip?

It wouldn't be any different to claim that the onboard graphics should be adequate. Well, for some base use, yes. For a pro editing program? Not hardly.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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Well obviously it wont get hot with water cooling, doesnt mean you need it though, just maybe, you know.......

I would not use the stock fan for overclocking, but it should still be capable of cooling the CPU without overclocking. Its like selling a Lamborghini that can do 200mph then fitting it with tyres rated for max speed of 100mph

One of the older i7's that they have used for years that I didnt build (1st gen i7 I think) has a stock fan on it and runs fine

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Valorous Hero ,
Oct 06, 2016 Oct 06, 2016

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the majority of computers (including gaming computers) do not need liquid, even for overclocking. the idea that liquid is needed for high cpu usage for extended times is very wrong. your system builder might be doing something where liquid helps with his custom builds, but after reading your input from him, i would suggest you keep his opinions off these forums.

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