Bylaws: both Headings and numbered lists

[keithconover]

Looking for advice. I am working on a professional-looking version of a group's Bylaws done in InDesign. The Bylaws are in Word format, which will continue to be used for editing as updates are made. I have a nice, relatively clean Word version, using the standard Heading 1, Heading 2 etc. styles which I can easily map to InDesign styles on Place of the Word file. However, under the headings are numbered lists of items, 1.1, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1 etc.

What is the best way to manage this? I have access to the Word file and can format as I desire in Word, perhaps with styles instead of the standard Word numbered lists. I will have to do this also with other documents organized in the same manner, so trying to figure out the best strategy to set this up with the least amount of effort going forwards. I was thinking about somehow getting Word to use styles for the numbered entries that I could match to InDesign styles on Place, but not quite sure the best way to do this, or even if it's possible.

I was hoping someone out there has tried something similar and at least can tell me what not to try.

[keithconover]

One thing I am considering; let Word take care of all the numbered lists as far as renumbering as edited, allowing the numbers to import as literal text, and then having a set of styles I can apply to the various sub-levels of the outline-numbered list quickly after import.

[Willi Adelberger]

Set up all styles in InDesign. Don't use the Word styles in InDesign as it causes huge problems. Mapping Word Styles to InDesign styles is ok.

Automatic numbers are done in InDesign this way:

1. Create a List (Type Menu)
2. Create for each level of a headline and numbering its own paragraph style. Use the numbering and bullets section to define the numbering and level and choose there the list you have created before.

[vinny38]

Hi

I respectfully disagree with Willi on this one...

You cannot map Word numbered lists as they are imported as a unique style.

So, I would start creating styles in Word: one for each level.

Then it will be easy to map, using Willi's advice on how to set up lists in Indesign.

Regards

Vinny

Edit: After creating your paragraph styles in Word, save your doc as a model.

This way, you'll be able to attach this Model to other word docs, and import newly created styles into them.

The final trick will be to search former lists and replace with proper style. Unfortunately the Word "search" feature is not as powerful as INDD, so I'm not sure how to do it, but I hope it's possible...

[Willi Adelberger]

Sorry, but Word styles have a bunch of features which are not supported in InDesign but are still hidden in the definition and will always cause problems. Get rid of them. Define them from the basic in InDesign. I see no problem to create any kind of numbered list in InDesign. InDesign is here much more superior as it is more reliable than Word ist as it does never interact between numbering and text as Word does. InDesign does not change the style behaviour if you open it with a different language version of that progam as Word does. In Word you get a mess if you start in an English version and open the very same document and work in a different language version of the program, like German. All these problems will later cause problems in InDesign. Get rid of Word styles.

[vinny38]

Willy

I never talked about keeping Word imported styles as it.

We are discussing about mapping styles, so the question is: how do you map numbered lists while knowing than Word doesn't create a specific para style for each level? My suggestion is to create word styles for each level and then use mapping.

Get rid of Word styles? Yes indeed! How? Using mapping...

[Willi Adelberger]

Mapping is ok. I did not reject mapping, I reject using imported styles.

Viele Grüße

Willi Adelberger

[Laubender]

Hi Vinny,

maybe that's a little bit off-topic, but I remember having problems with bulleted lists from Word—not numbered lists—where even mapping styles is always creating overrides.

There is a bug with InDesign's import filter for Word docx documents (did not test with doc files) where the inset values will not be applied as defined from the mapped styles, but will show rounding errors. Not a very big mess if you know about this lapse, but it is does not help much—to put it mildly—to see all bulleted paragraphs as overridden after the import.

And also to see imported character styles from Word that are not used at all in the document.

And all that when mapping styles.

Regards,
Uwe

[vinny38]

Hi Uwe

I'm not sure I understand what is the bug you're talking about, but I must say I never use docx... Doc or Rtf...

However I surely understand what you say while pointing the unwanted import of Word character styles.

It is to be understood that Word generates a "ghost" character style that it will apply to the number. It unfortunately doesn't appear in the mapping list 😞

The only way I know to avoid this is to unset the numbering in Word, but it obviously make thinks really difficult to work with "unnumbered" numbered list in Word.

I personally just use the on-click solution (so useful that it deserves a keyboard shortcut):

Select all and use the magical icon:

[Willi Adelberger]

Word documents have a lot of hidden styles which will be imported. And I experience always manual overrides, even when I import clean documents and correct mapping.

At the end I have to correct lists with styles in InDesign.

[Obi-wan Kenobi]

Vinny,

How to you do if you have manual numberings (one para style "Normal") in Word and want different auto-numbering para styles in ID?

including Bullet-autonumberings.

(^/)

[vinny38]

Huh

Vous pouvez répéter la question ?

Not sure I understand what you mean...

Final numbering list styles and options are defined in INDD.

The idea is NOT having a single "Normal" para style in Word, but to create - let's say "name" - specific para style for each level in Word:

[keithconover]

Thanks very much for all the education. As I'm trying to set this up as a standard way for this organization to maintain and be able to update their documents and still have professional-looking official versions, I took the (very ugly) Word version and stripped out everything except the basic text of the document. I made sure that the document used the standard Word heading styles for the top three levels, as shown below.

I decided to Place the file, using custom mapping of the Word Heading styles to some standard heading styles that I had previously established in a Branding Guide for the organization. I had thought of trying to map the styles of the various 1.1 and 1.1.1 styles, but after looking through it carefully, decided that manually applying styles would work better. When I Placed the file, with just the Heading 1, Heading 2 and Heading 3 styles mapped, this is what I saw:

I did make up styles named 1.1 and 1.2 and 1.3 with the indents I wanted. Since the numbering in the Word file carries over as literal text rather than any sort of auto-numbering, I'm simply setting a rule that there will be no editing that requires renumbering in InDesign. All significant edits should be done in the Word file and then re-Placed.

[keithconover]

I did find a couple of tweaks needed with formatting such a numbered format.

• When you get to 1.1.1.1, it's best to outdent the first line a bit more (half a pica extra) to allow for the longer numbering.
• Given the way Bylaws are written, sometimes something at the 1.1 level is just one of a list of things, and sometimes it's actually a heading. I found that sometimes I needed to apply the 1.1 style, and sometimes I used the H3 (Heading 3) style. Both are flush left so no additional tweaking needed.

[keithconover]

Actually I named those styles 1.1, 1.1.1, and 1.1.1.1.