Packaging ID files to include fonts used in placed AI files

[Dave Amason]

Folks...

I can't get ID to include fonts used in placed AI files when I Package. They show up in Preflight, but not in the final packaged folder. EPS files don't work either, *unless* when saving the EPS file, I uncheck Embed Fonts. If I do that, the ID package *will* include the EPS file's fonts. So it's possible for ID to see and include fonts from some form of placed graphics.

Am I missing something here? I thought this was possible... but maybe not? I know Markzware Flightcheck will collect everything. Maybe I'm confusing the two.

For reference: CC 2015, Mac OSX 10.10.5.

Thanx...

...Dave

[BobLevine]

Not possible. InDesign only uses the PDF portion of the AI file.

[Dave Amason]

Thanx Bob. So then if someone on the other end of the line needs to open the AI file and make changes, the fonts would need to be loaded on their computer? Wonder why ID will grab fonts from a placed EPS file but not a native AI file.

[Willi Adelberger]

Dave Amason schrieb:

Thanx Bob. So then if someone on the other end of the line needs to open the AI file and make changes, the fonts would need to be loaded on their computer? Wonder why ID will grab fonts from a placed EPS file but not a native AI file.

EPS does in most cases not have embedded fonts, so it needs the fonts installed on the computer. Contrary to a print ready PDF, which has to have all fonts embedded.

[Dave Amason]

I don't typically run into this issue, as I'm usually sending PDFX1As to the printer, not fully packaged mechanicals. And when we do send packaged mechanicals, the placed AI files are typically used as-is. On this project, though, creative might need to be tweaked by the printer, so they'll need to be able to edit the AI files. The EPS thing was just an experiment to see if there was any way to get ID to include fonts for linked files in the packaging process.

What's not making sense to me is why ID won't include fonts from placed AI files when it packages the mechanical. It "sees" the fonts at the preflight stage, and has the ability to include fonts for linked files in the package (as is the case with EPS files saved without fonts embedded). Why, then, won't it grab fonts for linked AI files?

For now we're just grabbing the fonts by hand. Still, I'm curious about why the half-measure on including ID *and* AI fonts in the packaging process, like Markzware Flightcheck does.

Thanx...

...Dave

[BobLevine]

All ID "sees" is a placed PDF.

Pay attention when you place an AI file. Take a look at the dialog. You are placing a PDF.

Another test: Save an AI file without PDF compatibility and try and place that.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful, just telling you why it is the way it is.

You should also note that the purpose of packaging fonts is to make sure everyone is using the same version, not to provide a font that someone doesn't already have a license for.

[Dave Amason]

Understood about all of this, and yeah - no PDF compatibility, no placing. I've always been aware of that.

ID does *see* the fonts at some level in placed PDFs, however, as is evidenced by them showing up in the Preflight panel when Packaging. Since we've had the ability to Package in ID, I haven't had to use Flightcheck for years and years. Actually don't even own a license for it anymore. Guess there's a reason it's a standalone app and costs as much as it does. Unless I'm mistaken, it also has the ability to collect CJK fonts, whereas ID won't touch those. But I'm not sure about that. It *has* been a while.

If this font collect functionality (or lack thereof) pertains to EULA/licensing restrictions, then it doesn't make any sense why they'd be collectible in the ID file itself, but not linked Ai files. What's the difference, really? For this particular project, the font is proprietary to the client. We (and all outside print vendors who work on projects utilizing these fonts) have full access to the live fonts according to the client's EULA. Their property, their rules.

With font licensing restrictions tightening, however, we've also been outlining type before sending out Packaged mechanicals. Big hassle when clients are making changes right up until press time (yeah, I know - unprecedented, right?). We end up having to make tweaks on our end and re-post files all the time. Oh well. Bad for workflow, good for billable time.

Thanx for all the input/info on this, Bob!

Cheers...

...Dave

[BobLevine]

Again, though…it’s only a PDF. The AI portion is irrelevant. Also, please keep in mind that the fonts embedded in a PDF are not complete. You’re only getting a subset, unless you actually go out of your way to embed the entire font.

As for the licensing, I’m only pointing it out to so you don’t get your hopes up of this ever changing.

[Dave Amason]

Sadly, I've been in the business too long to harbor any fantasies about things like this ever changing. 😞 If I'm obsessing about it so hard, it's only due to the fact I rarely do much problem solving these days. Mostly just work comes in, work goes out, repeat. Diversions from that are aways welcome.

To verify on the Flightcheck side, I downloaded and installed a demo version and ran it on one of our files. It grabbed all the fonts, including ones used only in the linked AI files. It may have only grabbed a subset of the entire font, but as that's all that'd be needed, that's just fine. Imagine having a 100 page catalog with dozens and dozens of placed AI files, each with various fonts that are only used in the AI files themselves. How tedious it would be to have to go through and collect each one of those by hand?

On the CJK issue, that's another matter. I'll need to try noodling around when I get to a machine that has CJK fonts installed on it. ID will definitely not collect those, even if they're used directly in the ID file. Whether Flightcheck will grab them or not is something I need to play around with.

Stay tuned...

...Dave

[Dave Amason]

Update on the font issue, for anyone who's interested...

I put together a test ID file with Times New Roman (Roman, Italic, Bold, Bold Italic), MHei (Chinese font) in five different weights, and another font in Korean with six different weights. As expected, ID package grabbed the Times fonts, but left behind the Chinese and Korean fonts entirely. Flightcheck grabbed all Times, all variations of the Chinese font, but oddly only the lightest version of the Korean font. Both programs showed all fonts in their preflight evaluation.

I then recreated the exact same test, only this time all of the fonts came into ID via a placed AI file, and there were no live fonts in ID. Packaging in ID didn't grab any fonts, just the placed AI file. Results packaging in Flightcheck were exactly the same as the results for the file where all type was live in the ID file.

Packaging the AI file directly from Illustrator yielded the same results as ID - all Times fonts, no Chinese or Korean fonts.

Flightcheck collecting the AI file yielded the same results as Flightcheck collecting the ID file - all Times fonts, all Chinese fonts, only the lightest Korean font.

It would seem as though Flightcheck has the ability to collect all Western fonts that come into ID via placed AI files. Some otherwise uncollectible Asian fonts would appear to collect as well, although I can't explain why the Korean font behaved the way it did. Flightcheck also has the ability to collect any sorts of support files you'd like to include, so I suppose you could path to the missing Korean font weights by hand using the list in the preflight window as a guide to what's being used.

To circle back around to my original query, this doesn't seem like functionality/non-functionality based on any sort of licensing/EULA considerations. If it was, you wouldn't be able to package any fonts from ID or AI. The fact ID won't include fonts used in placed AI files appears to simply be a limitation of the program. It will recognize them in preflight, but beyond that, no love. Flightcheck, on the other hand, will grab almost all fonts that come into ID via placed AI files.

This may not be an extremely relevant issue for everyone, depending on their workflow. For folks doing work that involves live fonts that only live in the AI files that get placed into ID, the idea of having to collect all of those fonts by hand when needed seems awfully time-consuming and risky. If I was in the position of having to deal with those types of files on a regular basis, I'd add Flightcheck to my workflow.

The issue of licensing/EULA as it relates to fonts and who should be given what is obviously a separate and even more involved issue, but not one that I feel is directly relevant to the original question at hand.

Just my $.02, your mileage may vary...

...Dave

[Laubender]

Hi Dave,

thank you for testing with Flightcheck.

What do you think?

Will Flightcheck see differences in the version number of the available, packagable fonts and the ones used in the PDF part of the placed AI files?

It may not apply in your case:

But font designers could change small details and issue a new version after years. So if a company bought fonts some years ago and some new licenses a few years later, the later downloaded ones could differ from already installed ones on other machines.

Regards,
Uwe

[Dave Amason]

Hi Uwe...

Flightcheck shows information for the font version number, as well as foundry, font type, whether the font has a menu style applied to it, and whether the font is used in the master document that's being checked (in this case the ID file), or in any placed graphics within that ID file (in this case the AI file with all the fonts). If you hover over the icon next to the font indicating it's being used in a placed graphic, you'll get a popup listing the file name(s).

Flightcheck used to be a vital part of my workflow back in the day, especially when it came to debugging a designer's file. With the preflight capability in ID now, along with an otherwise pretty robust Package function, I don't use it anymore. Still, it's a great piece of dedicated software for prepress work. You can download a demo from Markzware if you're curious. It's fully functional for 10 days.

Cheers...

...Dave

[Willi Adelberger]

1. Don't use EPS in any case. Use AI files. Never use PostScript in InDesign.
2. In Illustrator from CS6 upward (but only in a CC subscription) you can package AI files as you can do with INDD files in InDesign.
3. If you want to place (not to open) AI files you don't need those fonts.