Premier elements -exporting 4K video files

[billm94134793]

If I try to export and save a 4K video file when I go to the highest quality setting it renders and outputs a file a fraction of the size it should be, It is one tenth of the size I get using the lowest quality setting and 1/20 the size of medium quality setting !!!

Anyone rendered 4K video files on Premier elements?

cheers

Bill

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[Bill Sprague]

billm94134793  wrote

Anyone rendered 4K video files on Premier elements?

Bill,

I've been doing it for two years, first with version 13 and now 15.   My source files are from two Panasonic cameras, my computer runs Windows and my output selections are ordinary selections.

How can I help?

Bill (too!)

[billm94134793]

I was running a very simple test.

I recorded a short clip of a 4K MP4 video on a Panasonic GX80 and transferred it to a windows i7 PC running windows 8.2.

Opened premier elements 15 and imported the clip which is 381mb, moved it to the timeline.

Did no editing but simply did an export and save here are the results :

Imported file size 381Mb

Render setting LOW QUALITY produces a 127mb file and it plays OK with slight artefacts.

Render setting MEDIUM QUALITY produces a 145mb file and it plays OK.

Render setting HIGH QUALITY produces a 18MB file and it plays really badly jumpy with artefacts.

I will try it on my old i5 windows 7 pc later today.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Sprague]

I like that camera and would enjoy having one.  An online friend has been actively pursuing cameras with the best video image quality for several years.   Recently one of them has been the USA GX85 version of yours.  He puts his results on Vimeo.  You can watch and download it here:  https://vimeo.com/user1945704  Look for the titles that include "GX85".   

Mark's channel has over 550 videos from the cameras he has used.  If you go through them you can see a history of camcorder capability starting from the first HD consumer cameras 7 years ago.

Back to the point....  I repeated your test and got different results.

My 4K source clip was 319 MB from a Panasonic GX8.  It plays for 27 seconds.  

Export&Share > Devices > Computer > 4K Ultra HD > Low  (30 Mbps)  yielded a file of 132 MB

Export&Share > Devices > Computer > 4K Ultra HD > Medium (100 Mbps) yielded a file of 376 MB

Export&Share > Devices > Computer > 4K Ultra HD > High (200 Mbps) yielded a file of 751 MB

A few cameras and Premiere Elements versions back, a choice of matching output setting to source clips was added and I started using it.

Export&Share > Devices > Custom > Advanced Settings > Match Source  (100 Mbps) yielded a file of 376 MB

All four of my output files play well on my computer with a 1920x1080 screen.  Others I've done with the match source sequence play well on my new Samsung 4K TV.   I've had very good results and high levels of satisfaction with Premiere Elements over several versions and cameras.   You should not be getting crappy results with the computer and camera you are using.   In fact, you should be in awe of the results!

Without more detail about your procedures, I won't try to guess why your results are different from mine.  If you are in the mood, can you explain how you set up the project?

Best..

Bill

[billm94134793]

Hi Bill,

many thanks for all your info - I tried a couple of things before going out this morning.

First I tried it using my old Samsung i5 windows 7 pc and it rendered as I would have expected - got similar results to you.

I then went back to the HP i7 windows 8 pc and went into custom settings and advanced and Match settings - the file size was what I would expect but it didn't match the bit rate correctly. To get the same bit rate as the input file I had double the bit rate setting which then resulted in a file double the size but the bit rate was still less than the input file.

My thoughts are that the problem might be graphics card or driver related and since I have a work around I won't be updating either.

I only use adobe premiere elements because my version of Sony movie studio is version 12 and there is no 4K. I was offered an upgrade to version 13 which I believe has 4k but didn't bother because that was about the only improvement. Now Movie studio is Majix !!

re the GX80/GX85 or the G7 MK2 as it was known in Japan...the 5 axis stabilisation is amazing - no perceivable shake on 4K videos and they removed the AA filter from the sensor giving it improved sharpness so with that and the stabilisation the image shots are really sharp as well. For a camera with a format that is pocketable, although not shirt pocket, it does churn out excellent results for the price.

once again thanks for all your help and info

cheers

Bill

[Bill Sprague]

billm94134793  wrote

Hi Bill,

.......

My thoughts are that the problem might be graphics card or driver related and since I have a work around I won't be updating either.

I agree that the GX80/GX85 may be the most remarkable consumer video cameras we've seen.   If it were not made by a hair dryer and microwave company, it might see a lot more of the consumer sunshine.   Rock solid stabilization and 4K video capability in such a small form factor is different.  Technically, for video shooters, it is miles ahead of the latest Canon. 

Back to Premier Elements..... In Preferences there is a choice to turn on or off "Hardware Acceleration".  It has been known, that with delays between when Premier Elements was coded and graphics cards/drivers delivered, there are anomalies.   If on, would you try to turn it off?  If off, would you try to turn it on?

If I didn't already have two good performing 4K shooters, I would be figuring out how to get a GX85!

Bill

[billm94134793]

Hi Bill,

the accelerator was ON on both pcs.

I Turned it off on the i7 pc and it now works with the graphics accelerator off.

With quality set to max it renders giving double the bitrate and double the file size !

thanks

Bill

[Bill Sprague · Accepted solution]

Good news!  It is doing what I would expect it to do at Max. 

On mine, the Panasonic camera menu sets it at 100Mbps for best 4K.  File peeping suggests that might vary a little.  In Premier Elements both "match source" and "medium, recommended" is also 100Mbps.  File peeping shows it might be 109Mbps.  Like all editors, it is rendering, not making exact copies.  So, there should be some differences. 

I think using Max at 200Mbps might be trying to make something out of nothing and is a waste of time.  I don't know why the choice is there unless other cameras have some higher bitrate settings. 

Relative to Sony Movie Studio and Premier Elements, I tried at Movie Studio once.  I kept finding Premiere Elements superior for my needs.  I can't find anything it won't do and do well. 

There is both a free and advanced online third party training course that will bring anybody up to speed quickly.  Reply if you want links.

One more thing!  I get points if you mark this correct.  Someday, if I get enough points, Adobe might give me access to the entire Creative Cloud and I could learn the "real" Premier Pro. 

Good luck and have fun with your new camera!

[billm94134793]

I totally agree Bill - 200k is very much overkill. Ideally I would set the slider to something like the 60% mark but for some reason there are are only 3 points the slider can be set to - extreme left - mid way  or extreme right if you set the slider to the 80%  mark it jumps to extreme right if you set the slider to 60% it jumps to mid way - I just don't understand the logic.

Yes please give me the links.

your help much appreciated

cheers

Bill

[Bill Sprague]

The logic of the slider thing is to make it easy.  Us "advanced" power users can do it the hard way. 

Use Export&Share > Devices > Custom > Advanced Settings and you can set the bitrate to whatever you want.  Matching the source or picking medium at 100Mbps gives results that show well on a new 55" Samsung 4K TV.   On the TV at 4K, I can't see any difference between original clips and 4K renders from Premier Elements.

The Links:  The instructor in both cases is the same Steve Grisetti that posts here frequently.   I looked up his bio somewhere.  He gets credit for working with video for a long time.  In recent years he has committed a lot of time to teaching video with his books and video tutorials.  I give him credit for making Premier Elements my editor of choice.  With his teaching I got past the video editing learning curve hurdle fast at a time when I was seriously stuck on other editing software.  His books are easiest to get on Amazon.

Steve's website is called muvipix.com.  On it is his free 8 part Premier Basic Training series.  But, I can never find it there.  It is easier to find the same series on his YouTube channel.  Here is part 1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xow2kWzMIPA&t=17s

Much more thorough is Steve's course at Lynda.com, a Microsoft subsidiary.  It can cost $25 for enough time to take the course.  You may be able to get it under a free trial plan.  Lots of libraries provide free access, including mine.  The link is:  https://www.lynda.com/Photoshop-Elements-tutorials/Learning-Premiere-Elements-15/490861-2.html

Good luck! 

Bill

[billm94134793]

Hi Bill,

many thanks for all the info - much appreciated.

I ran some tests today and upgraded to the latest NVIDIA driver ( exactly the same rendering results).

Here is a summary of my findings:

Basically the Samsung i5 renders the same on HD FHD and 4K with the preferences set to NVIDIA card on or off. The speed is slightly quicker with the graphics card off ! That is the same on Sony Movie Maker.

With the HP i7 it seems to be able to utilise the Graphics card but the overall file size is reduced and the bit rate is also reduced on the final rendered version especially with 4K video files.

With HD 1280X720 there is no significant difference in the output with the graphics card on or off.

With FHD 1920X1080 and with the graphics card on the rendering time is reduced by 60% but there is a 10% reduction in the output file size and the output bit rate as compared to the graphics card not being utilised (box unticked in preferences on Premiere Elements). Even with this slight reduction the final output looks similar to the input MP4 file. The processing time with the graphics card being used
as well as the CPU matches the play time for FHD files (ie a 40second clip takes 40 seconds to process).

With 4K video files you need to ensure the graphics card processing is unticked. This means a considerably longer time but the output file matches the input file in size and bit rate.

cheers

Bill

[Bill Sprague]

Bill,

Thanks for the update.  My editing computer is an i7 laptop with an SSD and nVidia graphics.  The hardware acceleration box has always been checked.  I force myself to keep videos under 5 minutes so people will actually watch them.  My 4K outputs usually take about 3 to 5 times the length of the video, so output speed doesn't matter that much to me.  If it were 8 or 10 times the length, I'd start shopping for a new computer.

Until you started this topic, I never have compared output size to input size.  The reason is that I with the editing, adjustments, trimming, effects, transitions, etc., the output will be a different and modified sum of it's parts.  All that counts is my calibrated eyeball examination of the quality.

If you really want the output to exactly match the input, bit for bit, you need to find an editor that does "smart rendering".  Usually they are avoided because most want to "improve" their clips as the assemble them into a watchable video. 

The only consumer level smart rendering NLE that I've heard of is "TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 5"   http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tmsr5.html​​  I've never tried it.  

Bill

[billm94134793]

when I did the tests it was using an unedited mp4 file straight from the camera

the file size thing is a throwback from when I converted all my videos to MP4 a good few years back. The file size gave me an indication of the compression/quality. I still look at an unedited input to output size to give a rough guide as to what's going on. I knew as soon as I saw the size of some of the files I knew that the processing was going wrong.

I am quite happy with the avchd > mp4 conversion on adobe that's one of the pluses

So long as the edited edition plays back as well as the SD card into the TV I'm quite happy.  My 4K TV is a Panasonic 50inch UHD HDR even has USB3 so it can happily handle high bit rates. I stuck with pana because I have an HD/blue_ray recorder/media player and it connects flawlessly otherwise could well have gone for Samsung/LG

thanks again

Bill