• Global community
    • Language:
      • Deutsch
      • English
      • Español
      • Français
      • Português
  • 日本語コミュニティ
    Dedicated community for Japanese speakers
  • 한국 커뮤니티
    Dedicated community for Korean speakers
Exit
0

Soft Proofing, ICC profiles, and Out-Of-Gamut warning

New Here ,
Mar 18, 2017 Mar 18, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

In LR, if there are any colors out of gamut for a specified destination color space (like a printer profile), some people will recommend to turn down the saturation (or mess with the HSL settings) in order to fix it. However, simply exporting it with the destination color space embedded in the saved image file will automatically convert all the colors into that space. Which means then you can load the exported image back into LR and verify that indeed, the Destination Gamut Warning has disappeared entirely (no more red). What's more is that the results are almost always superior than what you could achieve manually by editing HSL sliders anyway!

So my question is this: Why isn't there an option to do this conversion in LR, without having to export an image and then load up the exported file? It just seems like a lot of extra steps for something that can be done in a click of a button. It seems very odd that exporting and importing a file is necessary to do the automatic conversion.

Views

3.2K

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 3 Correct answers

Community Expert , Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Yes and no. It's not as simple as that.

Yes, it will be brought into gamut, sort of. This will happen in any case, when the file is moved into another color space (screen, print or export). There is no "separate step".

But it's still clipped, and clipping may or may not look objectionable. Sometimes you really should make an effort to fix it, sometimes it's no big deal. The usual effect of clipping is to kill texture and detail. It will often be damaging to intangible qualities like "air" and "sp

...

Votes

Translate

Translate
LEGEND , Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

jonathanl79031925  wrote

IMHO, it would still be a very useful and handy feature to be able to convert to different color space without exporting. Even if it's technically not the absolute "correct" way, it works for me in 95% of cases when a "targeted approach" is too time consuming or unnecessary.

In addition to what

...

Votes

Translate

Translate
Community Expert , Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

This is quite a useless step. All it does upon export is clip colors. This does not solve your problem as Fosse notes. It just clips them and now the clipped colors happen to be in range of your proofing space. You also introduce possible numerical conversion errors that can degrade the quality of your file and introduce banding problems. You really want to minimize the number of color space conversion steps. Also, this is completely useless for a raw file and is quite contrary to the non-destru

...

Votes

Translate

Translate
Community Expert ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Yes and no. It's not as simple as that.

Yes, it will be brought into gamut, sort of. This will happen in any case, when the file is moved into another color space (screen, print or export). There is no "separate step".

But it's still clipped, and clipping may or may not look objectionable. Sometimes you really should make an effort to fix it, sometimes it's no big deal. The usual effect of clipping is to kill texture and detail. It will often be damaging to intangible qualities like "air" and "space".

Either way, HSL is rarely the right tool - it's to general, with too much collateral damage. You need to work with a more targeted approach. It's not just a question of knocking down saturation across the board.

Done well, effective gamut remapping can improve an image considerably. But it's often a lot of work, which may or may not be worth it.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

IMHO, it would still be a very useful and handy feature to be able to convert to different color space without exporting. Even if it's technically not the absolute "correct" way, it works for me in 95% of cases when a "targeted approach" is too time consuming or unnecessary.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

jonathanl79031925  wrote

IMHO, it would still be a very useful and handy feature to be able to convert to different color space without exporting. Even if it's technically not the absolute "correct" way, it works for me in 95% of cases when a "targeted approach" is too time consuming or unnecessary.

In addition to what

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

In my case, I am using an online lab to process prints (WHCC) and they only accept sRGB or Adobe RGB. However, they do provide ICC printer profiles for soft proofing, which is what I'm using to make sure I am not out of gamut.

So basically my workflow is as follows:

1) Export image from LR with WHCC ICC profile embedded.

2) Import image back into LR.

3) Export image a second time with sRGB profile embedded.

4) Import image back into LR again to verify all (or most) colors are inside gamut.

5) Send sRGB file to lab

As you can see, this workflow is cumbersome to say the least!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

jonathanl79031925  wrote

In my case, I am using an online lab to process prints (WHCC) and they only accept sRGB or Adobe RGB. However, they do provide ICC printer profiles for soft proofing, which is what I'm using to make sure I am not out of gamut.

Since you don't have the option of applying the printer profile conversion yourself I suggest the following workflow:

1) Adjust the raw image file as you normally would prior to soft proof. Export to a full-size 16 bit TIFF file with Adobe RGB color space.

2) Using the exported TIFF file in Soft Proof mode apply correction adjustments using the suggestions already provided. It appears the WHCC printer profiles are tagged as 'Perceptual' so make sure to use only that Soft Proof 'Intent' when making your adjustments.

3) Export to JPEG file format with 80 Quality and Adobe RGB color space. Use 'Resize to Fit' with Resolution 300 ppi, print size dimensions in inches, and Output Sharpening for the target paper type (Matte, Glossy).

This meets the File Requirements criteria that WHCC requests, which helps to insure the best results.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Ok, thank you guys for the info!

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

This is quite a useless step. All it does upon export is clip colors. This does not solve your problem as Fosse notes. It just clips them and now the clipped colors happen to be in range of your proofing space. You also introduce possible numerical conversion errors that can degrade the quality of your file and introduce banding problems. You really want to minimize the number of color space conversion steps. Also, this is completely useless for a raw file and is quite contrary to the non-destructive editing approach as it is indeed destructive.

Fosse describes the correct approach. You should not be obsessed with at all cost bringing colors into the destination gamut. Simply visually inspect the soft proof (turn the gamut warnings off!) and only if areas of color get washed out and lose details you should try to address it. Most of the time, the soft proof shows that the out-of-gamut is actually just fine even though the OOG overlay might show out-of-gamut areas. Only try to fix it if there is a problem that is clearly visible and objectionable. Trying to get every color perfectly in gamut can really ruin an image if not done right.

I also caution against using the HSL tools as they really impact your entire image. Only when the only instance of the objectionable color is what is out of gamut might it work but in general it gets bad results as it also impacts the instances of that same color that are not OOG. It can work but only in very limited cases.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

If using the HSL tool is not recommended, what is the recommended way to address large portions of the image being out of gamut?

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Generally do nothing. Only if you lose detail in those areas, you should use some localized edits (negative saturation generally) and that should fix it. Considering the clipping part, It depends on how the lab works whether there is an advantage. If they insist on doing the conversion from whatever you deliver, you can use their profile to check for problems (again an out-of-gamut warning is not generally a problem) and color shifts that you might want to correct. If they allow you to deliver files in their profile, there is some advantage in doing the conversion yourself as you avoid a conversion step that can potentially induce color banding. Consider the hypothetical case that you would send them a file in 8-bit adobeRGB vs a 8-bit printProfile. What happens in the first case is that you go linear 16-bit ppRGB->8-bit aRGB->8-bit printProfile, in the second case you go directly 16-bit ppRGB->8-bit printProfile. It is possible that the intermediate step to adobeRGB or sRGB actually blows some colors that are printable in the final destination and you also can get bit-conversion errors that can cause banding.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Mar 19, 2017 Mar 19, 2017

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

My understanding is that if I send an image to the lab with out of gamut colors, those colors will be clipped anyway. So there is no advantage to fixing the problem before sending it to the lab?

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Feb 12, 2020 Feb 12, 2020

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

LATEST

Dfosse writes:

"

But it's still clipped, and clipping may or may not look objectionable. Sometimes you really should make an effort to fix it, sometimes it's no big deal. The usual effect of clipping is to kill texture and detail. It will often be damaging to intangible qualities like "air" and "space".

 

Either way, HSL is rarely the right tool - it's to general, with too much collateral damage. You need to work with a more targeted approach. It's not just a question of knocking down saturation across the board.

 

Done well, effective gamut remapping can improve an image considerably. But it's often a lot of work, which may or may not be worth it."

 

absoultely right, its very well worth learning about manual adjustment of saturation in preparation for print. 

 

I hope this helps

 

neil barstow, colourmanagement.net

[please do not use the reply button on a message in the thread, only use the one at the top of the page, to maintain chronological order]

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines