Why does destination color profile gets assigned to image after converting to a profile?

[abharat_in]

Hi,

I have an image which is set to "Do not color manage" when verified using 'Edit > Assign Profile" option. Now I am selecting 'Edit > Convert to Profile' option & then converting my image to a color space using any color profile. After conversion, the selected destination color profile also gets assigned to the image. Is this correct?

To verify the results after every conversion, I have to re-set the image to not color manage from 'Edit > Assign Profile option.

Please clarify on this.

Regards,

Ajay

[Trevor.Dennis]

One for  Dag

[Test Screen Name]

Sounds correct to me. You are converting to use a profile, so the profile is tagged to the file. Adobe work hard to stop you working without colour management. It doesn't even mean anything to Photoshop. What do you want it to mean?

[abharat_in]

Thanks "Test Screen name" for your inputs.

What I understand is that Adobe suggests to work in a color managed workflow but Photoshop also gives me flexibility to decide what I want/need. It provides an option to 'Do not color manage' which is fine for me. In addition to this, 'Assign profile' allows me to assign a profile to color manage my images as & when needed.

So why does it assigns a profile on its own after conversion - if I need that I can always use 'Assign Profile' option. In my use-case I am converting my images using application default profile as source & I want to see results after converting to any profile. If destination profile gets assigned then my results are different & I need to un-assign the profile to see the results of conversion.

Regards,

Ajay

[davescm]

Hi just to expand on Test Screen Name's correct reply:

A profile tells a colour managed program how to interpret the numbers (e.g. RGB or CMYK for each pixel)  to produce a certain colour.

Assign Profile does not change any numbers it just adds the description (profile) of how to interpret them and attaches it to the file.

Convert to Profile - takes the colour produced by the numbers using profile A and changes them so that the same colour will be produced using profile B . It then attaches profile B.
If there is no "profile A" then it works the same as Assign Profile.

In short - Photoshop is working as intended.

Dave

[abharat_in]

Hi Davescm,

There is a difference in image rendering if destination profile gets assigned after conversion to a profile. I need to see the results of converting to a profile but to do that I always have to un-assign the assigned profile. Why does Photoshop assigns the profile on its own in this path? If it is needed for my workflow I can assign the same from 'Assign profile' option after the conversion.

Why I am forced to do that?

Regards,

Ajay

[davescm]

abharat_in  wrote

Hi Davescm,

There is a difference in image rendering if destination profile gets assigned after conversion to a profile. I need to see the results of converting to a profile but to do that I always have to un-assign the assigned profile. Why does Photoshop assigns the profile on its own in this path? If it is needed for my workflow I can assign the same from 'Assign profile' option after the conversion.

Why I am forced to do that?

Regards,

Ajay

Of course there is a difference in the way colours are displayed if you assign a different profile.

If you Assign a profile where there was already a profile attached - then you are telling Photoshop to leave the RGB numbers unchanged but interpret them using a different profile i.e. show a different colour.

Assign should only be used if no profile is attached - or if it is clear that an incorrect profile has been attached and you want to attach one which displays the colours differently.

If you want to change a profile but have the displayed colours remain the same (within the limits of the new colour space) then you should use Convert Profile.

You can preview the change that will be made when converting to a different profile by using Proof Colours.

Dave

[Stephen_A_Marsh]

Sadly, CMYK > CMYK devicelink conversions retain their source profile, they do not inherit the destination profile. This is not good. Technically I understand why, as there is no way to embed the destination from the link as a device profile. It is still not fantastic, so one then has to either manually assign the correct device profile for the destination used in the link, or elect to not colour manage.

In either the original post’s situation, or my example above, the best way to deal with this is to use an action to convert and colour manage as required.

[D Fosse]

Don't ever use "do not color manage" unless you have very good reasons and are fully aware of the implications!

You can't convert until there is a profile to convert from. If the file doesn't have an embedded profile, you need to assign one, and it has to be the correct one. So try sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto in that order, and hit OK with the one that looks right. Then you can convert.

The reason it's so dangerous turn off color management options in Photoshop, is that Photoshop is always color managed in some way. You can't turn it off, all you can do is disable the parts of it that lets you see what's going on.

For files to work in non-color managed environments, they must be created in sRGB (or converted to sRGB). This is close enough to most monitors' native behavior that they will display reasonably right.

[abharat_in]

Thanks for your inputs D Fosse.

Regards,

Ajay

[D Fosse]

This whole thread is a contradiction in terms.

The OP wants to work without color management, but still have the benefit of profiles. It doesn't work that way.

[abharat_in]

Thanks everyone for your feedback on color management.

Still I am looking for a reason for the behavior that I mentioned. I can understand the functioning & usefulness of assign profile & convert to profile. I do understand that having a color managed workflow helps but I just need to know why I am forced to do something for which I already have the menu options to select, if I need the same for my workflow.

To elaborate further, please verify the attached snaps below with my steps of what I am doing.

01. Following is the original image that I am using to convert to a profile. In my flow, image is not having any assigned color profile (but this does not matter for end results where I have my query. If image is un-assigned then the source color profile as set in 'Edit > Color Settings' will be used as source for conversion).

02. I am converting this image to "US Newsprint (SNAP 2007)" profile; the result of which are as seen in below snap.

03. I can see that the conversion is fine but this is not what is shown to me. Photoshop actually displays following image after conversion.

This is where I got confused & later identified that Photoshop has actually assigned the destination profile after conversion, resulting in this display. So I am un-assigning the profile every time after conversion to get the results of conversion.

I do understand that assigning the profile does not actually change color numbers which is also clear on verifying the color values form 'Info' pane.

I hope I could elaborate my query further.

Regards,

Ajay

[D Fosse]

You can't work this way. You're fighting the way Photoshop operates, this is an eternal upstream swim. If you need to strip the profile for process reasons, do it at the end.

Converting and assigning are color management operations. There has to be a source profile, and there has to be a destination profile. You can't escape it. Work with it, not against it.

In Photoshop there really is no such thing as an untagged file. You cannot display a file as "untagged" CMYK (or RGB). There is always the working space, and if the file doesn't have an embedded profile, the working space kicks in. That's how it gets displayed.

This is a newsprint profile with very high black point and thus low contrast. The way to deal with this is through proper monitor calibration. Set your calibration targets to reflect the print conditions. Set the black point to visually match max ink density. Get a test print of some sort, and set the monitor black point accordingly. Do the same for the white point - it should match paper white. It will look like sh*t on screen, and it should.

With this set, soft proof to the newsprint profile. What you now see on screen, is a faithful representation of what the final printed result will look like. Now you can strip the profile, if that's required.

[abharat_in]

Hi D Fosse,

Thanks for the detailed description.

I am actually not fighting the way Photoshop operates but trying to understand the reason for a behavior. And I hope reasons could not be like "...this is the way it works so assume it to be correct..."

As I stated earlier, I understand that converting & assigning are important color management operations. I know there has to be a source & destination profile & I am actually working with it, not against it. I know if there are no source profile tagged/assigned/embedded in the image then profile set in working space kicks in for displaying as well as when conversion is done. I do understand the importance of monitor calibration to match print conditions. Moreover, what I am saying is that, all these are useful & important capabilities provided in Photoshop and how this is functioning is also correct i.e. behavior of source profile/working space, behavior of destination profile & actual conversion.

What I want to understand is that why destination profile gets assigned after conversion when I can do the same if needed. I am only asking Photoshop to convert to a profile & not tag/embed/assign a profile for which there is another available menu option. If reason for this is that - this is how it works & I need to strip the assigned profile after conversion; then its fine & that's exactly what I am doing but it does not actually gives me valid reasons for the said behavior.

Regards,

Ajay

[D Fosse]

What you want is to export a PDF/X-1a. This converts to destination CMYK and then strips the profile. The reason for this is that some RIPs still choke on icc profiles, and many printers therefore want untagged CMYK. That's not a problem in itself. If the data are already in the final destination color space, so that no further conversions will be performed, the profile doesn't need to be included.

But this procedure rests on working with normal color management up to that point.

As far as Photoshop is concerned, I still maintain that disabling any aspect of color management is a disaster waiting to happen. All that happens is that you no longer get a reliable preview of what the output looks like. You're working blind. It's all downside and no upside.

I stand by what I said. You're fighting the application instead of working with it.

[abharat_in]

"...That's not a problem in itself. If the data are already in the final destination color space, so that no further conversions will be performed, the profile doesn't need to be included..."

I completely agree on this. I know the profile that I need my image colors to finally convert to & then no further conversions need to be performed. So there is no need to include a profile; and if any further change in workflow requires this then I can use the assign profile option as needed.

"...As far as Photoshop is concerned, I still maintain that disabling any aspect of color management is a disaster waiting to happen..."

Well I think we should only be frightened of the outcome if we are not aware of the scenario. If we know the reason of any misbehavior then same can be corrected. Photoshop has actually provided the color management in best possible ways which is clearly understandable as per workflow requirements. I don't think it would break workflows with small corrections/enhancements.

I stand by what I said. You're fighting the application instead of working with it.

I am still working with application by using the available workaround and just want to know the reason for mentioned specific behavior.

Thanks & Regards,

Ajay

[Test Screen Name]

I think "convert to profile" is doing what I'd expect in setting the profile. If convert to profile, for a tagged file, did not change the tagged profile the colours would shift, and that's not what it's for,even if it's what you want. What you seem to want is the function "preview using profile". That of course should not attach a profile, but I don't think the function exists.

Clearly you e found a way to work in device colours using Photoshop, and view it using a profile. If I were you I'd just be happy I could make Photoshop do this, and just untag. Presumably these two steps could be automated.

[abharat_in]

"...If convert to profile, for a tagged file, did not change the tagged profile the colours would shift..."

Yes, you are right that if this happens then colors would shift for screen display and this is not needed. But how can this be resolved by assigning the destination color profile? Instead if after conversion, image is set without having any embedded profile then it would render the actual image colors using my working space profile which should be an expected behavior.

"...What you seem to want is the function "preview using profile"..."

No, this is not what I am asking for. What I am asking for is the reason to assign/embed/tag the destination profile after using convert to profile operation. This is because assigning a profile is what I need to do based on my workflow.

"...Clearly you e found a way to work in device colours using Photoshop, and view it using a profile. If I were you I'd just be happy I could make Photoshop do this, and just untag..."

Yes, I am really happy that I could untag the profile in Photoshop and I am using the same. And I think this is one of the basic requirements of color management.

[abharat_in]

Thanks guys for taking out time to discuss this behavior and I can assume that some behavior in Photoshop does not have any logical reasoning; We need to look out for workarounds to get the desired results. Still if anybody has some inputs on this, please share.

Regards,

Ajay

[Stephen_A_Marsh]

Thanks guys for taking out time to discuss this behavior and I can assume that some behavior in Photoshop does not have any logical reasoning;

The logic has been explained/described numerous times in this topic thread, however you don’t agree with the programmed logic (which is fine, everybody has an opinion and is entitled to an opinion). You don’t have to agree with the Photoshop development team’s programming choice, you just have to understand it in order to work with/around it.

We need to look out for workarounds to get the desired results. Still if anybody has some inputs on this, please share.

As with my example of a CMYK > CMYK conversion using a DeviceLink profile, the workaround is to record an action to convert and then colour manage as required/desired (two steps in one). The same thing applies in your situation.

[abharat_in]

Thanks Steph...