Will New 8 core Ryzen CPU perform well with PPro ?

[JFPhoton]

Yibada website is rumoring that the new AMD flagship Ryzen CPU will feature a fully unlocked 8core/16 thread CPU which will maybe equal,or, even surpass the Intel 6900K CPU at a price of between $400 and $499. This price would be HALF of intels current $1,000 for the 6900K !! Considering that tests by Puget systems and others show that an 8 core / 16 thread CPU is a "sweet spot" for most performance tasks with PPro, if true, this news would be welcome to budget system builders. The great question is if the Ryzen CPU will actually perform well with PPro. In the past, the lack of certain " instructions" on AMD CPUs caused them not to be able to compete with the performance of intel CPUs with PPro. Will the same happen this time ?

      I believe the "cache" sizes on the new Ryzen CPU may be smaller along with less Gen.3 PCI lanes. However, at this low price, the PPro performance may be only a little affected....someone will have to test it !!

      Its too bad that the accompanying new AMD GPU " Vega" will not be a considered item because of the exclusivity between NVidia and PPro regarding " CUDA acceleration ". If GPU acceleration were ever to be equal using a Vega vs an NVidia GPU, system builders could REALLY save some money !!

I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. It will be interesting !

[RoninEdits]

i am also keeping an eye on these new amd products. we won't know how it will perform until someone actually tests it with premiere against the intel cpu's. in the various non-adobe benchmarks i've seen so far, the amd cpu's are pretty close to the 8 core intel. if it ends up being closer to the intel 6 cores it won't be good unless prices are lower than the $400 intel 6 core... for overclockers we also have to figure out how well the amd ryzen cpu can overclock vs the intel 8 core. supposedly the amd cpu will auto boost, sorta like gpu's do, so it might be better for folks who don't like to manually overclock. the other consideration is if there will be any amd cpu bugs in adobe software, like there have been previously. that may be enough to keep "professionals" off amd as the extra cost for intel would be worth the lower risk.

as far as the gpu's go with vega, i have seen some benchmarks as well as one person who posted their tests with an amd rx card here, and the new amd rx polaris seems to be doing just fine in premiere vs its nvidia counterpart. so i don't have a problem recommending an amd rx to anyone for premiere and vega might also perform well in premiere. we are then just left with cuda only software, which is getting to be a very small list these days. bill's testing shows that memory bandwidth is very important to gpu performance, so amd vega with hbm2 may have a big step up in performance. i think nvidia's refresh of pascal might have hbm, but the gtx 2000 series is a ways off.

[Guest]

Betting pool. This, in some way shape or fashion will be in the updated Mac Pro as AMD is already the GPU provider for said system.

[RoninEdits]

AMD Ryzen 7 Release - YouTube

benchmark results are promising, but we need to see how it handles premiere. they also mention ryzen mobile, maybe for laptops?  but no specs and not till 2nd half of the year. custom laptop builders could stick the 8 core desktop cpu in a laptop right now if they wanted, just like they do with intel 4 core desktop 65-91w cpu's.

[milkmade]

Benchmarks are out. I hate to say it but for $500 the 8core looks like a beast for Video Editing.

Same or better performance than the $999 Intel 8core for half the price...

YIKES!

[RoninEdits]

so far reviews show mixed results in premiere. i see several reviews showing it performing close to (some worse than) the intel 6 core. a few youtube reviews have weird premiere benchmark results, suggesting bad premiere tests that make their results irrelevant. mixed performance with premiere may be due to ryzen's cut down AVX compute power, which was one of several cost cutting decisions amd made for the ryzen cpu's. outside of premiere the reviews show the amd 8 core holding its own against the intel 8 core in several programs that can use all 8 cores. handbrake was one that showed the amd 8 core doing very well against intel 8 core. single threaded performance was a still behind intel, especially with an overclocked i7-7700k's. so for 2-4 core threaded software, which is most software, the newer intel 4 core cpu's will be faster.

pros:

----------------------------

for many multi-threaded programs ryzen 8 core will compete with intel 8 core, at 1/3 to 1/2 of the price.

lower costs vs x99: amd cpu and motherboard could save between $500-800

     (will likely be found in off-the-shelf computers, for more budget friendly computer buying options vs x99.)

AM4 has modern features: usb 3.1 gen 2, (1) m.2 x4 ultra, pci-e gen 3.0 (1 at x16, or 2 at x8/x8 on x370)

cons:

----------------------------

single thread performance lower than intel.

less expansion options: ryzen has 24 pci-e 3.0 lanes vs x99's 28-40 lane cpu's

     (good for 1 video card and 1 m.2 x4/ultra. past that x99 will be better for dual gpu, dual m.2 x4, etc.)

limited to 64gb and dual channel memory vs x99's broadwell-e 128gb and quad channel.

limited upgrade path to higher core count cpu's vs x99's i7 10 core and xeon 22 core cpu's.

appears to have no thunderbolt support

currently ryzen has memory problems past ddr4 2400-2666 with 2 sticks, and ddr4 1866-2133 with 4 sticks.

bios updates might help with faster memory kits. ryzen specific ram kits could be coming.

overclocking:

----------------------------

currently ryzen seems to top between 3.8-4.1 on all cores for overclocking.

the R7 1700X and 1800X might be binned, getting around 100-200mhz more per skew at max.

XFR isn't an auto-overclock like a gpu boost. it appears to be only for a single thread/core boost.

misc info:

----------------------------

new noctua coolers for amd ryzen AM4 platform:

NH-D15 SE-AM4, NH-U12s SE-AM4, and NH-L9x65 SE-AM4

* some am3 coolers are compatible, but only the ones that use the am3 socket clips.

[JFPhoton]

The reviews I read included one which states the XFR gives a 100mhz boost on TWO cores and that the Intel turbo boost seems to work better than AMDs version because it boosts ALL cores under load.

It was warned in advance that the major reviewers were under pressure from Intel, and it can be plainly seen that Anandtech used bizarre tests to try and paint the Ryzen as inferior to Kaby Lake and the 6900K. They didn't compare overclocked results, either.

There is a lot of software....including testing software.....which is optimized for Intel. As AMD has not been in the picture competitively for a long while, the Ryzen will perform much better in the near future as software engineers optimize equally for AMD.

Specific testing regarding the Ryzen and PPro needs to be done.....in the recent past Eric at ADK has posted very detailed test results on Haswell E, when it was launched. I am hoping he and Bill Gehrke will be able to report on Ryzen. I would guess that Adobe's  relationship to NVidia would possibly mean that PPro may not yet,if ever, be "optimized" for Ryzen...I hope I am WRONG because if a combination of Ryzen CPUs and Vega GPUs work well with PPro, many more people could afford to construct a high performing machine at almost HALF the current cost !!... and THAT would mean more users of PPro.

[RoninEdits]

It was warned in advance that the major reviewers were under pressure from Intel, and it can be plainly seen that Anandtech used bizarre tests to try and paint the Ryzen as inferior to Kaby Lake and the 6900K. They didn't compare overclocked results, either.

there were several weird reviews. some made amd look just as good as the intel, and some made amd look terrible. one reviewer called amd out for their trickery they used during live presentations to make their hardware look better. several reviewers commented how amd pushed them to use certain benchmarks to make the ryzen cpu's look good. while i haven't seen any proof of intel interference, i wouldn't put it past intel as they have a very dishonest and dirty history with what they did to amd in the past.

There is a lot of software....including testing software.....which is optimized for Intel. As AMD has not been in the picture competitively for a long while, the Ryzen will perform much better in the near future as software engineers optimize equally for AMD.

i heard amd say that, and i think this is mostly amd spin. the amd hype train was pushing hard in many places and had excuses for any issues. i don't know how much optimization is actually needed since amd's new cpu's mimic alot of intel functions, as well as using the same cpu instruction sets. the XFR boost is an example of amd mimicking intel's turbo boost. some intel cpu's can boost 2+ cpu cores during boost, as you read the amd does. if software really needs to be optimized for amd, they should have shown that in a demo, like they do with their video cards. it also wouldn't explain how existing programs are able to run so well with the amd 8 core vs intel 8. one thing was clear from amd's design, they focused on best performance at the lowest cost by cutting some corners. so they knew a few programs (perhaps premiere) would have done bad, but they were ok with that since they could get lower costs to a much larger market for other software that won't notice those cut down features.

i agree we need more premiere testing, and i will be watching for other reviews. i doubt eric is coming back to the forums, but maybe puget will do some or someone will submit results for ppbm. the problem with alot of benchmarks is people use premiere in different ways, so benchmarks don't match each other and don't always match the user's project. with the few decent premiere benchmarks i've seen for the amd rx video cards, i too hope that a amd cpu + gpu setup will be a good option for premiere and other software. as far as low costs go, it will be the off-the-shelf systems that make it affordable and easy for more folks to get their hands on a powerful machine with ryzen.

[RoninEdits]

g.skill announced some new ryzen compatible memory, the Flare X series have higher ddr4 3200-3466 speeds.

http://www.gskill.com/en/press/view/g-skill-announces-flare-x-series-and-fortis-series-ddr4-memory-f...​

[milkmade]

Great discussion.

After reading everything around the web from the past few days I've got a better grasp on the situation.

Intel and AMD are both guilty of shady practises. Intel's deep discount offers to it's channel partners for being an Intel shop only have been widely reported from everywhere around the world all week. Intel is/was scared and was trying to offer its chips at a 0-margin/Loss discount. This is shady. But it also makes me wonder why Intel is just reacting to Ryzen now. How could they not see this coming?

AMD showed off cherry picked benchmarks that only showed Ryzen in a good light. They failed to show off the Edge outliers that the Anand article refers to and Ronin mentioned when they cut corners. They also sent out cherry picked, highly binned CPUs to reviewers.

Also if you read the Anand article, you'd see it's not complete. They are doing it in segments, so that's why you don't see overclocking results and other things that you are looking for. It's still coming.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter. A competitive AMD is great for the industry whether you're a fan of their products or not. It will only make Intel's products better/cheaper in the future if AMD can remain competitive (hopefully).

[RoninEdits]

But it also makes me wonder why Intel is just reacting to Ryzen now. How could they not see this coming?

they all have spies/informants inside each others camps, so intel knew. i think intel already responded with 5ghz kaby lake and we will see more with x299. if intel released a large performance jump to respond to ryzen, they would loose several upgrade cycle sales and get in trouble with their shareholders by loosing all that profit. intel has been doing lots of ads for "the cloud runs on intel", so they are trying to brand associate to help fend off amd's server cpu's when released.

[Bill_Gehrke]

I sure would like to a PPBM submission and really see where AMD really stands.  My new site has real test data that shows where CPU's, GPU's and Storage systems rate, much test data is from my own system except CPU's.  You can find the PPBM download at the new site also which is ppbm8.com.  This is the same benchmark that has been run thousands of times over the past 4-5 years.  Many people complain that it does not use their specific media, this was never the intention, it is just stress testing Premiere to test various hardware features.

I have to rely on submissions for much of the CPU data but with GPU and Storage data it is much from my own experimental desktop system.

[chrisw44157881]

AMD RYZEN 7 1700X 3.4GHz 8 95W $399.99

dang, 7700k is $338 and 6800k is $408. ryzen better drop their prices by at least 30%.

[Bill_Gehrke]

It would be very interesting to know how many people really are using any of those 4K, 6K or 8K RED medias where the simple 4 core i7-7700 is outclassed.  Of course how many people render previews anyway?.  I cannot remember the last time I ever rendered a preview.

It is also interesting why the 8K RED is so much faster than 6K RED

[milkmade]

Awesome stuff Ronin! Thanks for posting. The 5ghz Kaby you're referring to is kaby-X yea?

New site looks great Bill!

[RoninEdits]

kaby lake, the i7-7700k. it regularly overclocks between 4.8ghz and 5ghz .  i think kaby-x is suppose to be only slightly faster base clock speeds than the i7-7700k, not 5ghz base.

[RjL190365]

Also, the Kaby Lake-X will use the high-end LGA 2066 socket but limited to only four cores and eight threads (at least on the CPU's launch date). There will, however, be 12-core/24-thread Skylake-X CPUs on that same socket.

[RoninEdits]

there are several rumors about the x299 platform and how amd rushed ryzen early to avoid competing with it. which explains why the ryzen motherboards weren't ready and other problems like the ryzen memory issues... now supposedly intel is rushing x299 and coffee lake to compete with ryzen. rumors of a 12 core skylake-x on x299, as well as a 6 core coffee lake for the main stream. the 6 core could be very interesting if the price is right. if intel is going to compete on prices, we might see a shift in intel's lineup with the coffee lake 6 core replacing the 4 core kaby lake at $330, and the 12 core skylake-x replacing the $1500 10 core broadwell-e. the kaby lake-x 4 core is rumored to have 16 pcie lanes and dual channel memory support. so it doesn't make alot of sense for it on x299, unless perhaps x299 is going to be intel's exclusive overclock chipset and do away with the Zx70.

[milkmade]

Been reading about the resurgence of competition in the CPU market...First time in many years. This seems to always happen to me. I buy/build a new system the year before things get interesting. I really wanted an 8core part for my new editing rig but I didn't want to pay $1,000 for it. And now look what happens, intel is getting serious. My 6c 6800k looks like a lameduck now, especially with the price shift.

Either way, very exciting times.

[RoninEdits]

puget released their AMD Ryzen review:

Puget - Premiere Pro CC 2017 AMD Ryzen 7 1700X & 1800X Performance

basically they gave it a pass, as it has lower single thread performance and 64gb memory max.

the benchmark chart below shows that with red footage the amd ryzen 8 core is able to keep up with the intel 8 core. most likely from the red footage being able to use all 8 cores. for the rest of the media types it appears we have the typical adobe/premiere problem of poor multi-threading, which shows all of the cpu's turn in somewhat similar times. another benchmark shows the amd 8 core ryzen cpu perform like the intel 6 core while exporting to 4k h264​​ with source media other than red footage. that might explain why several other reviews show the amd 8 core perform like the intel 6 core in premiere. amd's ryzen might be doing worse with h264 exports as a result of how the h264 codec premiere uses is coded, since the 4k dnxhr export​ benchmark shows the amd 8 core ryzen cpu keep up with the intel 8 core. i think the puget benchmarks are all at stock cpu speeds, so an overclocked intel cpu could possibly pull away from an overclocked amd ryzen in these benchmarks.

[inspirevideo]

I just upgraded to a Ryzen 7 1800x and I can honestly say my experience using it for Adobe Premiere Pro has been outstanding, I made a video about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JRDi7COw2Y

[RoninEdits]

thanks for sharing your experience with ryzen. that dust though, yikes haha.

[Trevor.Dennis]

inspirevideo  wrote

I just upgraded to a Ryzen 7 1800x and I can honestly say my experience using it for Adobe Premiere Pro has been outstanding, I made a video about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JRDi7COw2Y

Adam I watched your video, which was nicely done, but I let it run through to where you separated a pair of jammed filters using a big feck-off vice.   Aggggghhhhhh!!!!!   That was a joke, right?  I'll be having nightmares about tonight. 

[inspirevideo]

I wanted an excuse to buy a huge vice plus it worked! (I also filmed the process as I suspected it could end in tears).

[Trevor.Dennis]

Sorry to take this off topic, but while talking about vices, they have moved on a bit since I retired from Ford Research 13 years ago (it feels longer).   Nowadays there are so many amazing tools, and they are so affordable!  I love it   I belong to a local Menz Shed where I am enjoying getting my hands dirty again, and involved in engineering projects.  One thing we have bought is this vice that I would have killed for when still at work.  It is reversible with a pipe vice on the other side, which might have been better for clamping your filter.

Sadly, of the 30 odd members of my Menz Shed, only about four of us have engineering experience, and shortly after attaching the vice to the bench, some animal used it to hold bits while MIG welding them, and covering the shiny moving parts with splatter.  I could have cried.  Thankfully we were able to polish the splatter off, and made it clear that we would do terrible things to the next person to mess it up.

BTW  the trick with the filters is to use two flat  semi-hard rubber surfaces — like gardening gloves — and press the filters between your palms.  That distributes the pressure without distorting them.  Otherwise kitchen lid removers like this

Or specialist clamps like this

Or last ditch method is to make saw cuts 180° opposite each other, and use a steel ruler as a giant screw driver.  Dipping the female threaded half in warm water and the male in cold water, makes a world of difference, because the shape of the objects means that the expansion/contraction differential is going to be relatively high.  Obviously not too hot or cold though — you'll know why.

By heck, I love that rotating vice!