First Baseline Offset problem (super weird)

[joelc95247436]

Our design team is struggling with a very weird issue. Four people experience no difficulty but the fifth person experiences all the strangeness. She has uninstalled CC+InDesign and reinstalled and updated—but to no avail.

Here's what happens:

Using a file I created or a copy of that file that she made, everything looks fine, but when she copy/pastes a text frame, in instantly oversets. Upon closer examination, it appears the "first baseline offset" is nudged down when she clicks paste (see image "baseline-A"). Mine is on the left, problem is on the right.

When she reviews her "text frame options" it's set to "ascent" but the amount is 0px (see image "baseline-B")

If she switches to "cap height" but leaves the entry as 0px it fixes the problem. But she would have to change the "Ascent 0px" setting to "Cap Height 0px" setting for every single text frame. Yet someone else can open the same file and experience no overset issues.

Any idea what is happening? I've checked/googled/tried everything I can thing of.
Sincere thanks for your help!

[Cari Jansen]

I believe you have the right idea in thinking it is related to baseline grid somehow. 

If there is any type of alignment to baseline grid, copying and pasting a frame with text that is aligned to a baseline grid will show some displacement of text IF the vertical position on the page (Y coordinate in Control panel) OR baseline settings vary between the two documents.

Other things to check:

Check document baseline grid

• InDesign also has a document based baseline grid, check that the settings for that in both documents are identical:
  Preferences > Grids
  

Is the text set to align to baseline grid?

• With the Type tool select the first paragraph, at the bottom of the Paragraph panel menu check to see if Align to Baseline Grid is enabled.
  
  
  

Is first line aligned to baseline grid?

• Select first paragraph, and in the Paragraph panel menu check to see if Only Align First Line to Grid is selected.
  
  
  

[joelc95247436]

Cari, I will check the Only Align First Line to Grid option and see if that is it.

In terms of your other two thoughts.... Align to Baseline Grid is disabled and this is where it gets really weird, it shouldn't be a document preferences issue, because it happens in the same document! I open the the document... it's fine. Other designers open the same document... it's fine. She opens the same document... and the overset text happens when she performs copy/paste.

[Cari Jansen]

The other thing to look at – and I believe you've already checked this – is to see if the Baseline Options (Object > Text Frame Options) are identical for the 'original' frame and the 'pasted' frame.

• If you select a text frame with the Selection tool, then Copy and Paste it, these settings should NOT change.
• However if you select the text with the Type tool, then Copy and Paste a new text frame is created as you paste the text, and in that case the Baseline Options will be whatever the default are for the the document in which you paste.

[joelc95247436]

If you select a text frame with the Selection tool, then Copy and Paste it, these settings should NOT change.

Cari, I 100% agree, but it happens. I can try to take video of it later.

[rob day]

If she switches to "cap height" but leaves the entry as 0px it fixes the problem. But she would have to change the "Ascent 0px" setting to "Cap Height 0px" setting for every single text frame.

Have you checked if the Object styles for the source and destination documents are the same?

Object Styles work the same as Paragraph and Character styles, if you copy and paste text and the destination has a style with the same name, the pasted source text will be updated to the destination's styling.

So if you copy a text frame with the [Basic Text Frame] object style assigned from document A and paste it into document B where the definition of the [Basic Text Frame] style is different, the B document's object style will be used.

[joelc95247436]

Rob, same comment as I made to Cari.... this is happening in the very same document, just opened by another user on another computer (accessed via a shared server). Which is why I started thinking it was some global InDesign preference, but seeing it change when switching from Ascent to Cap Height, even though the input was 0px on both has really has me miffed.

[rob day]

this is happening in the very same document, just opened by another user on another computer (accessed via a shared server)

Is the document showing any font substitutions in Type>Find Font...?

The baseline grid preference gets saved with the document.

[joelc95247436]

It's not font substitutions. Her panel checks out fine, up to date.

Here is a video that shows what is happening. (google drive hosted video)

[Barb Binder]

Would you mind posting that file from your video on dropbox, and then posting a link to it?

[joelc95247436]

Yep! Here's is a link to the video on dropbox. Thank you!

[Barb Binder]

I'm sorry, the InDesign file you were using in the video, not the actual video.

[joelc95247436]

Ah, I'm not thinking quickly today. Here you go—file on dropbox. Thanks!

[Barb Binder]

No worries, but also no clear answer. I'm sticking with super-weird.

Observations:

• The baseline grid is defined, but those paragraphs are not on the grid.
• Edit > Copy, Edit > Paste in Place definitely offsets the first line and then oversets the frame.
• The issue seems to stem from the original frame. When I clear overrides, it behaves like the copy does. So there is some override in the first frame that is not being copied, that I can't find. The only listed override is the top inset spacing, but when I choose Apply Style, Clear Attributes Not Defined by Style the top inset stays and the text moves down.

This is the starting point after Paste in Place. The text in the new frame is offset, and the frame is overset:

Apply Style, Clear Attributes Not Defined by Style on the copy does nothing. Apply Style, Clear Attributes Not Defined by Style to the original frame does this:

If it were me, I'd make a copy of the frame, delete the original and work with the copy as you move forward.

[Cari Jansen]

Great find that the text frame has corrupted... and a good reminder that sometimes we do need to dig a bit further into the document itself.

I've not seen text frame corruption for a long, long time. But have in the past seen document corruption be caused by a single element on a page somewhere. Would be good to know what causes it, but at times gremlins do take hold of our documents it seems

[rob day]

When she reviews her "text frame options" it's set to "ascent" but the amount is 0px

When i open your file the text frame is set to ascent and the text is oversetting and nothing changes when I cut and paste.

Just to be clear, with most fonts you would always expect Ascent to move the baseline down relative to Cap Height no matter what the Min amount is because the ascent line would typically be higher than the cap line. You would expect some amount of space above the cap when you choose Ascent.

this is happening in the very same document, just opened by another user on another computer

Are you saying the text frame's First Baseline Offset setting is changing when the doc is opened on different machines?

[Barb Binder]

You know what, it is an issue with that original frame. Recompose the document, and it fixes itself.

Mac: Cmd Opt /

Win: Ctl Alt /

We talk a lot on the forum about InDesign misbehaving because of corrupt preferences, and less about the files themselves. This was a file issue, specifically with that frame.

[joelc95247436]

Rob, when I or other users open, it’s not overset. And then does after one specific user performs copy/paste. I’m not saying the setting changes (it’s always set at 0px), but when one specific user performs copy/paste it oversets whereas before it wasn’t (see video).

Barb, I believe I recomposed the document (this is a deeper level for me) and it doesn’t appear to have fixed it. The problem with copying the frame, and starting from there, is that the issue is only with 1 of 4 users.

Sincere thanks for your time.

[Barb Binder · Accepted solution]

So based on my examination of the document, the frame itself is wonky (not the copy). Recomposing All Stories straightens it back out. Then you have to either lengthen the frame or reduce the top offset so that everything fits again.

Moving forward, you should be good to go with that frame on everyone's system.

[joelc95247436]

Thank you all for the help!

[klarrita]

Hi. Have you ever found the real problem / solution to this? I just had to change computers and experiencing exactly the same...  Have 3-4 years of email promotion files each with 30-200 of those text frames. It happens with only certain frame. (if its a corruption issue and the first frame was corrupted... Then I most likely copied it all across from beginning) ... some (same) frames offset exactly same as yours (about 2mm down) however,other frames offsets bit higher (to low cap hight). I googled and couldn't find a solution... First I Though it could be because I'm not using the same font software, but no, it's not the issue. 

It's around 100-200 manual changes into each new document if I would use the suggestion above.  Thanks!!! 

[rob day]

I’m not saying the setting changes (it’s always set at 0px), but when one specific user performs copy/paste it oversets whereas before it wasn’t (see video).

In your video you are showing the Text Frame options for the pasted object, but not the source object. I'm just curious if they are both set to Ascent? Cap Height vs. Ascent would produce different starting baselines.

[Uzny]

Oh man... I can relate 🙂 After reinstalling Windows, the same issue occurred in all of my documents. Sure, changing the first baseline to "Cap Height" in all of the text frames fixes the problem (and you can do that easily in Find/Change > Object window), but with hundred of documents that would take an absurd amount of time.

After searching for the solution, this blog post gave me an idea: https://indesignsecrets.com/understanding-the-first-baseline-position-of-text.php

This sentence to be exact: "<setting the first baseline offset to Ascent> ensures that the top of a lowercase letter fits inside the frame. Exactly how far below the top of the frame varies, depending on the font you’re using. Some will be dead on. Others, not so much."

The solution (in my case) turned out to be the font, I had installed some different version of the font I've used previously (Roboto) and these two versions were different when it came to the "first baseline" value. After finding the most recent font and reinstalling it, all the files behaved as expected.

Hope it helps someone, cheers.