7 Replies Latest reply on May 12, 2012 3:08 PM by Peter Spier

    4 page Spread quagmire.

    NativeKnowledge

      I'm realizing that I must reorganize a 64 page pamphlet I am working on. There are 24 black and white pages and 40 color pages. I now must reorganize the black and white pages as 12 4-page spreads to get the cost savings from the printer. I didn't originally lay it out with 4-page spreads in mind. So, you can all imagine…

       

      Is there a way to reorganize the pages so that all of the b/w spreads are together and the color pages, 20 4-page spreads, are together as well. I currently have all of the text (b/w) up front followed by the color pages.

       

      I am using cs5 ID, PS, and a dab of AI.

       

      Thanks in advance for any help.

        • 1. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
          Michael Gianino Level 4

          This is really a composition question only as it relates to production, and only a production question as it relates to cost of production. If you (or your publisher/client/employer) were willing to pay what ever it costs to have color pages where ever you like, you could do that. What you are being asked to do is to place the color pages together so that they don't have to make Cyan, Magenta and Yellow plates for every impression. It's cheaper to gang all of the black only-impressions together on one set of master sheets, and likewise all of the four-color impressions.

           

          So, the answer to your question depends on how it will be produced. The binding method and the number of pages on each master sheet will determine where those color pages have to go in order to avoid the extra plates. That information is going to have to come from the printer. We on the forum could give you some useful scenarios, but unless we match the one the printer is going to use exactly, it will be of no use to you at all. In fact, if you were to use our advise and it was wrong, you would have wasted another block of time on top of where you are now.

           

          Talk to the printer/prepress and they will give you either the pages that will work, or some number of possible choices that you can pick from.

           

           

          NativeKnowledge wrote:

           

          I now must reorganize the black and white pages as 12 4-page spreads…

           

          20 4-page spreads…

          P.S. I was just re-reading, and noticed what looks like a math error. 12 4-page spreads is 48 pages, and 20 4-page spreads are 80 pages, which has me a little confused. If your book is 64 pages, you will have a total of 16 4-page spreads.

          • 2. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
            John Hawkinson Level 5

            It is probably a good idea to be careful with terminology here.

            Unless I am misintepretting you, you don't really mean "4-page spread." I think you really mean "4-page signature."

            A "spread" is a contiguous sequence of visible facing pages. Under normal circumstances it is limited to 2 pages, unless you have a fold-out, gatefold, tip-in, or other extremely expensive customization.

            When you mix up "spread" and "signature" you produce a lot of confusion. InDesign can handle quite a few spread configurations (though all of them are only 1 page unit high; they can be up to 10 pages wide, and the spine can fall anywhere in the 11 positions on either side of the 10 pages), but normally speaking you would only use one: facing pages on either side of a spine.

            InDesign never needs to think in terms of signatures (unless you are asking it to impose pages, which you should not be doing, see below, unless your printer has told you to do so, which is unlikely, and suggests you should be asking different questions or at least chatting with other printers).

             

            Presumably your design is not independent of ordering such that you could simply reorder the pages arbitrarily.

            Presumably you are not simply asking if InDesign can display the pages to you in one sequence (1,2,3,4...) and send them to the printer in another sequnece (1,64,2,63,...). That would be "reader spreads" versus "printer spreads" and is accomplished by "imposition," which is something your printer should deal with and isn't really a cost issue (or should not be).

             

            So instead, you need to sit down and figure out which pages you want to be color and how to rework your design so you have color where it makes sense and not where it doesn't and make compromises in your design, where you place images, etc., etc.

             

            This is really an exercise for a piece of paper and pencil.

             

            So...what again is it that you are asking for InDesign to do for you?

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            • 3. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
              NativeKnowledge Level 1

              Thanks for responses. MG: I knew I prpbably wasn't doing the math properly and sure enough. JH: You were right! The Marketing/Sales person said "signatures" and not spreads at all. I will have to relook at the overall layout page by page.

               

              My hope: InDesign allows me to rearrange pages. For instance I'd love to be able to move page 21 (as an example) to page 54 (as an example) and then move images and design that were on page 54 to page 46 (as an example). I see that all of my pages will be effected with each move of a page by either moving them to a page before and after their original position.

               

              Note: I am producing a 64 page + cover booklet (museum catalog) with 2-up saddle stitch. It's an act of love and I'd like to keep as much love in the project as possible—so all help is welcome.

              • 4. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
                [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                You can drag pages around in the Pages panel, but InDesign will *update* any page numbers on them as well -- InDesign is not built to do manual imposition.

                 

                You are probably best off moving the pages *in the order you want* and leave all imposition stuff to your printer.

                 

                As for "the order you want", well, you WANT your black-and-white and color pages in such a sequence that printing is as cheap as possible AFTER the imposition -- after the printer moved your pages around to create signatures. So you need to know the exact details of how your printer is going to create the signatures -- how many, and which, pages will end up on each separate black-and-white and color signature.

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                • 5. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
                  John Hawkinson Level 5

                  My hope: InDesign allows me to rearrange pages. For instance I'd love to be able to move page 21 (as an example) to page 54 (as an example) and then move images and design that were on page 54 to page 46 (as an example). I see that all of my pages will be effected with each move of a page by either moving them to a page before and after their original position.

                  As Jongware said, you can easily move pages around in the pages panel, and that should be what you want to do.

                   

                  But Jongware also said:

                  As for "the order you want", well, you WANT your black-and-white and color pages in such a sequence that printing is as cheap as possible AFTER the imposition -- after the printer moved your pages around to create signatures. So you need to know the exact details of how your printer is going to create the signatures -- how many, and which, pages will end up on each separate black-and-white and color signature.

                  It's almost certainly the case that your printer has a lot of flexibility on this, and has told you to tell him what you want. It may be as easy as saying that color can be on any signature, or it may have special restrictions like the last and first are cheaper, or only certain patterns, or whatnot. But unless you have a web press, you probably have arbitrary control and each additional color signature just adds a fixed cost.

                   

                  In which case you should sit down with pencil and paper and figure out which pages you want to be color, based on your constraints and your printer's constraints. And then just move pages around in InDesign.

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                  • 6. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
                    NativeKnowledge Level 1

                    Thanks all. I think I'm ready to do the deed!

                    • 7. Re: 4 page Spread quagmire.
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      This is a chart I dis a few years ago for the crew laying out my daughter's university literary magazine that had a few color photos. IN their case they had 80 page grouped into 5 16-page signatures, and they wanted all the color photos on one side of one sheet, but you can see the pattern here and extrapolate how your pages will be set up on press (if in fact this is going on press) so you can keep your color together on the least number of sheets possible.

                       

                      Signatures Layout.png

                       

                      4-page signatures, though, makes me think this might be a digital print job. That's OK, the same principles apply, but you'll have many more sheets, and it will be much easier to arrange. In the case of digital printing any color on the sheet (per side) is going to generate a color click charge, but because there are no plates and more sheets you have the ability to mix color and black in ways that would be cost prohibitive when you have eight or more pages per side on a sheet of paper.

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