13 Replies Latest reply on May 15, 2012 5:34 AM by camilo umaña

    How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?

    camilo umaña Level 1

      Here the margins are 20 mm left for the left one; and 20 mm right for the right one.

      Thus the use of that useless Indesign headings option (paragraph alignment toward spine/away from spine) gets a fine solution.

      And is obtained this superb white space in both pages.

      Of course is against the rules in digital but not in hot metal or baryta paper...

      At least, It is scriptable?

       

      Screen Shot 2012-05-14 at 2.11.53 PM.png

       

      or the daily (poor) solution:

      Screen Shot 2012-05-14 at 2.41.48 PM.png

        • 1. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Is there a question here? I don't understand what it is you are trying to do.

          • 2. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
            Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

            It appears that camilo is looking for the easiest way to layout text where on a left hand page, the red subhead hangs to the left, and on a right hand page the red subhead hangs to the right.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Yes it does, but that seems awfully strange and hard to read, at least tom, so I'd like to hear it from him.

               

              A mockup of exactly what the finished spread ought to look like, even if you have to use multiple frames and "cheat" to get desired the appearance would really help here.

              • 4. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                camilo umaña Level 1

                Peter: I see your problem is esthetic and of legibility?

                I am afraid at least legibility is not at all a point.

                 

                 

                This layout has been used for many centuries in the age of moveable type.

                Why hard to read?

                Only because headings are away of spine?

                (Also I remembered saw it with Monotype composition).

                Just say that it is a job that has to be made...

                 

                (Hanging heads in many books, dictionaries and manuals give this appereance)

                 

                The idea is to use part of the outside margins to insert the headings. (Above)

                The solution provided by Indesign (below) does not allow to obtain in the right page the left white space.

                 

                You have something in mind with frames?

                It seems interesting... although the link among two page sems has to be broken?

                May be it may be used non indent paragraphs if a solution is visible.

                • 5. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                  camilo umaña Level 1

                  Yes, Jeffrey. That is the idea. Obtain frames with different left/right values...

                  • 6. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                    [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                    Put the headings in a table (it only has to be 1 column wide and 1 row high). Tables can extend beyond the regular margins.

                     

                    > Thus the use of that useless Indesign headings option (paragraph alignment toward spine/away from spine) gets a fine solution.

                     

                    Yeah I don't get that. This IS a situation where you would use it as intended. These kind of things are hard to script.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      I think another option would be to make the text frames wider (and adjust the margins to match the new frame widths) and set both left and right indents for the body text paragraph styles, then no indents for the headings and align away from spine.

                      • 8. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Pretty everyone with whom I have communicated about InDesign's "towards spine/away from spine" feature falls into one of two groups: a) Forum regulars who know how the tool works, and b) people who are really mad that "towards spine" doesn't cause frames to snap to the spine. Really, really mad. The only exception is Camilo here - I first encountered Camilo on these forums, and so he's only a little disappointed. 

                         

                        In fact, the B set of "people who are mad about align-to-spine not snapping to the spine) is comprised almost exclusively of people who don't really understand the difference between the margins of the frame and the margins of the page. I already think of Camilo as being a typesetting-aware kind of guy, so that can't be his problem. I am guessing that he has the same problem with InDesign that I do - I don't see why any textual object shouldn't be able to have negative indent, placing it outside the text frame. Ever since I learned that tables could extend outside the frame without an anchored object, I have been kinda grumpy about this limitation - why can't I hang my bullets outside the frame, then? It's a wholly arbitrary convention from my high school graphics education, that frames act like little bits of paper on a lightbox and I'm laying it out with hot wax. I mean, I'm only exaggerating somewhat - it would be quite annoying to see text sitting around unframed and to need to click around until we could find its source frame - but I've been thinking about skeumorphs all day, and so I think about the fact that I'm not allowed to hang my bullets outside a text frame as being roughly equivalent to clicking on a picture of a circa-1984 floppy disk to save my work. It's a survival from the toolset of an earlier era.

                         

                        Camilo, I think that Jeffrey's suggestion is a good one - tables are allowed to extend outside of the text frame. You could also do it with anchored objects - here's a link to a script that will automagically take your section headers and turn 'em into anchored objects. Either one will get your subheads outside of the main text frame. Peter's suggestion (redefine everything so that your main body text has enough indent to make room for your subheads inside the frame) is probably more work for you in the short term, but is more in keeping with the assumptions inherent in InDesign's user interface. It also probably stands up to future revision with less headache - just my guess.

                        • 9. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          My suggstion probably has more to do with my basic distaste for using tables and my distrust of anchored objects (I always seem to find the case where they don't work right -- and I suspect that might happen if the heading is at the top of a frame or needs to be very close to the bottom), than any future robustness.

                           

                          I think adjusting the frames sizes should be relatively easy using Layout Adjustment.

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                            camilo umaña Level 1

                            Indeed, the idea is setting the text frames wider with big left/right indents; and the headings without indents to be extended to the borders of the frame.

                            But it is impossible that a paragraph—for the moment—manages two different l/right indents simultaneously: in the «faked» example displayed I placed two unthreaded frames just to show the idea.

                            The more crazy idea could be after the book is already proofed write a script that could cut-paste each page allowing to have odd/even frames for facing pages as flowing was interrupted...

                            Paragraph indent will be compromised but this may controlled with text that has not first line indents.

                             

                            As Joel put it:

                            frames [that] act like little bits of paper on a lightbox and I'm laying it out with hot wax.

                            I agree with you perfectly in

                             

                            basic distaste for using tables and my distrust of anchored objects

                             

                            as this is a book (the project will cover 15 vols.) it seems additional procedures could be impossible to attain.

                             

                            Thank you.

                            • 11. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                              camilo umaña Level 1

                              Joel, I will try again with that script from Mr Silkjaer you mentioned (Mr P. Kahrel wrote something similar but for footnotes: in this case convert the headings to footnotes could be a tortuous and absurd idea).

                              Thanks a lot for your time and devotion. It helped a lot to precise my idea behind the thread.

                              • 12. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                Here are two threaded frames that do exactly what you want, I think, and handle it entirely with two paragraph styles:

                                 

                                Umana headings layout.png

                                Notice that the margins are set where you want the headings to end, and the text frames fill the margins. For the body text I added both left and right indents (the same amount for each one so they will leave an identical margin for the heading hanging over), added an additional first line indent and set the alignment to left justified.

                                 

                                Headings have no left or right indent and are aligned away from spine.

                                • 13. Re: How to design these pages with this classical left/rigth alignment?
                                  camilo umaña Level 1

                                  How you dare to get always real solutions for this forum?

                                  I knew that you were not bound to lose out!!!

                                  And the key: similar left/right indents for body.

                                  Brilliant.

                                  Thanks again as always for your help.

                                  C.

                                   

                                  Screen Shot 2012-05-15 at 7.27.29 AM.png