6 Replies Latest reply on Jun 7, 2012 5:10 PM by Dan Ramirez

    Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?

    johnnyfriday Level 1

      I have constantly had problems with getting final output color to match what i am seeing on my monitors when color correcting. This has been a continual problem mainly with R3d footage and going to Prores...but for the sake of this discussion here is my prime example:

       

      Start a new project in PrPro and clor from PrPro adding effects, 3 way color, 3rd party effects like Finesse and Colorista...then output the project to Tiff for master then convert from Tiff sequence to Prorest; H264 or anything else....But, when i output a prores file, and then open the prores file on its own--not brining it back into Premier...i notice a shift in colors....completely desaturated etc...this happens whehter i choose for gamma as "auto" or "none" when choosing codec settings for prores. I've had this continual problem for many years and the ONLY way i have found it to work is by using Apple's Color and then going to Prores....seems apple hardware and software work well together...but this cannot be an isolated incident with me only...AND coloring a project on your desktop and putting all that work into it and seeing it DIFFERENT at the end of the day is more than a let down...

       

      ...so maybe a discussion on properly setting a project for color work is in order...I came across another forum members website reToolednet and he had some great info on setting up the sequence timeline and video preview area that is great info...but even when i do that i cannot get a perfect match at the end of the output....Exapmples below all done in PrPro and then output to Prores 4444.

       

        I've found info on Adobe site that does not seem current about setting project settings and color space, but no place in PrPro do i find that setting...is this only AE?  OR...can we even do a proper color job within PrPr?  or should that be done elsewhere?

       

        Id like to go through the proper steps of setting workspace and color schemes for say a Prores output since that is likely 75% to 90% of everyone's deliverables in the tv realm....

       

       

      Snapsot of Tiff sequence WITHIN PrPro (colored)

      Tiff.png

       

       

       

      Final Output from PrPro to Prores--snap from actual QT prores file--(Desaturated)

       

        Prores444.png

      When i began this project i had my sequence settings to R3d 1080p @ 29.97 and video previews to Iframe....

       

      **NOW, i think i would have been better off to change video preview to my final output of Prores 4444...BUT, i tried that and still see a color shift.

       

      **Note, i oriingally colored this on 5.5 with Matrox out to my color corrected monitors....and results on those monitors DO and WILL be diffrent than what you see on your computer screen....my monitors were set to rec709 and RGB at end of the line for viewing....but i see nothing within PrPro on how to set this....however at end of the day i do not get what i see on my preview monitors....

        • 1. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          Couple of things.

           

          First, Premiere Pro is not color managed like After Effects.  (At least prior to CS6 it was not.  But I haven't yet seen anything to suggest that CS6 is, so I assume it still isn't.)

           

          Second, are you using a properly calibrated external TV for the CC and grading?

           

          Third, you need to be viewing the output on that same calibrated TV to judge it.  You can't use your computer monitor or QuickTime player for quality control.  There's just too many variables and things that can affect the video.

          • 2. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
            johnnyfriday Level 1

            Thanks Jim....yes, i'm covered on all cc monitors and quite used ot viewing output on color calibrated...as well viewing both on the same platform/monitor....The BIG question is PrPr being able to do color work---and my question is why would it have all the color effects if it did not?  But i agree with you....first place to start is can you do proper color work on PrPr AT ALL?  no problem to do a quick web video...but can you properly color a for television product---I seem to think NO....i could not get colors in end to match....i can view out on PrPr view my I/O box (Matrox MXO2) and see great colors that i colored the project on to my FSI color corrected monitor....but then when i view the ProRes file back (not on PrPro)...but on it's own with its own codec engine...this is where things go awry and stray from colors i originally put on the images...

             

            But this is a PARAMOUNT subject as Pr is offering coloring....i hate to bring this in, but in FCP i can get accurate colors on my Matrox and same when rendered out to Prores file....Again, i think Apple plays well with apple.....but as you say, there are a great number of varialbes involved in the preferences etc...within PrPr...seems to me AE may be better just by reading about it...but why not both?

            • 3. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
              johnnyfriday Level 1

              Jim,

              one thing that stood out...

               

                You can't use your computer monitor or QuickTime player for quality control. 

              So are you saying/suggesting that when viewing my FINAL prorest output using QT 7 or X....i CANNOT judge the color rendition based on Player? So....i actualy MIGHT be getting good color matching in the end even if it looks different in QT player vs PrPro..?

              • 4. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                my FINAL prorest output using QT 7 or X....i CANNOT judge the color rendition based on Player? So....i actualy MIGHT be getting good color matching in the end even if it looks different in QT player vs PrPro..?

                 

                Exactly.  Software players, graphics drivers, even the OS itself can all affect how the video appears on your monitor.  That's why you do Quality Control only on an external, calibrated TV.

                 

                Now, I'm not saying there is no problem here.  I'm only saying that until you have the variables eliminated, you just won't know if there is a problem with the footage.

                • 5. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
                  johnnyfriday Level 1

                  yes...this i get about calibrated monitors....and both QT and PrPro are playing out ot a calibrated monitor....i was kind of hoping that QT might be the problem....but i really doubt it since i've been delivering those for 12 years now....but kind of wishful thinking after a giant coloring project....I'm betting that this is a PrPro thing....sure seems it's not the place to do color work and if it is....then not very intuitive. But that said...apple has issues with going to prores from other codecs as i've seen.

                  Thanks Jim.

                   

                  *would sure be a topic worth getting to a starting point here regardless for any of us doing color work to get results of work put into the coloring.....

                  • 6. Re: Color Space Management & Final Color Output-not WYSIWYG?
                    Dan Ramirez Adobe Employee

                    Pardon me for skimming the thread and posting, but I'm seeing a comparison of PR and QT displaying the same video file. Have you tried comparing QT7, QTX, VLC, and any other ways to view this footage? At a minimum, that would provide you more context on whether or not Premiere is doing the right thing.

                     

                    The other test is injesting Premiere's render into other systems that support this footage. Does it display the same in this application as it does in Premiere?