9 Replies Latest reply on Jun 18, 2012 12:50 PM by Dan Ramirez

    Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..

    Tim_Wreyford Level 1

      Hi,

       

      I used the below link to fix gamma issues in after effects - which also seemed to work in Premier...

       

      It worked for me on CS5.5

       

      http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2009/12/prores-4444-colors-and-gamma-s.html

       

      I am now using CS6 on a Macpro and on Lion and it doesnt seem to work ?

       

      Could i be doing something wrong or is there a new code for CS6 ?

       

      Thanks in advance,

       

      Tim

        • 1. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
          johnnyfriday Level 1

          I DEFINITELY want to see this thread come unglued and get answers....this is a BIG thing for anyone doing color work at all in Adobe Products...i think it is HIGHLY under-rated as well....we all do a lot of color work and export to prores and just accept the color shifting...I've been plagued with this and it's the reason why i HAVE to stick with Apple Color for my stock video work...i shoot R3d and transcode to Prores 422 & 4444 for stock delivery...if i use PrPro or Redcines software and go direct to Prores---i get this gamma shift and desaturated colors---I've NEVER found a fix other than staying within COLOR....i'd love to leave them, but NO WAY until this color shifting is fixed...i also recently colored an entire 52min doc within PrPro...not it needs to go back to COLOR....the entire project just does not reveal the colors i see via my program monitor via Matrox I/O out....and color corrected monitors...but then back in Color and transcoded out to Prores...my prores files within QT look identical to the images within Apple Color....

           

          What Gives?  Can we get some knowledge flowing on this....What's the big MYSTERY? How about a 3 step program on how to set up a coor project to get matching output to what we see....give us WYSIWYG.....PLEASE!!!

           

          Here's my thread started with a few pics of the nasty shifting: 

          http://forums.adobe.com/message/4413898#4413898

           

          and thanks for bringing this up Tim....was wondering if i was the lone wolf on this....

           

          Edit:  I'll add that it's not only 444 any QT codecs seem to suffer....

          • 2. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
            Tim_Wreyford Level 1

            Definately not the only one!

             

            I find all QuickTime files affected to.

             

             

            the link I posted above worked for me with pro res 4444 but nothing else, but not working for me in CS6.

             

            I have to deliver in Proes 422 hq so until I get the same results that what i see in premier is what my Prores file looks like I'm stuck with Grading in FCP or Color.

             

            If I could get the above 4444 patch to work in CS6 I would be halfway happy as I can convert 4444 to 422hq in QuickTime .

             

            Hope someone can help!

             

            cheers

            • 3. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
              johnnyfriday Level 1

              Tim:  i have been dealing with this issue since late 2007 and although i did not go on a crusade to find a solution...i can say that working in PrPro and Redcinex software DID NOT transcode Prores files to my liking--or rather how i graded them....I have to say that this is a BIG let down in that i WANT to leave FCP & COLOR for ONE program or suite...but not the case at the moment.

               

              That said, I have heard from some other users that PrPro may not have the ability to work somehow with proper color monitoring....and After Effects may be the only solution....but i have not worked in After Effects.....but i kind of think that AE and PrPro should work similar in this respect and SHOULD be able to give us proper color monitoring....and TRANSCODING---

               

              The sad thing is that for a thread like this i think there is not much attention paid since it's likely not high on the priority list when adobe is dealing with other more basic issues/bugs....and i'd venture to say coloring is sort of a "niche" end where some moderators & engineers may not deal in this....BUT, it's a critical part of the system from A to Z....that i was hoping Adobe would deliver.

               

              ...As you say, back to FCP & COLOR now for this end of work. I'm going to try working with Resolve (for mac) to see how that works--but sure defeats purpose of one Suite to do it all.....

              • 4. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                johnnyfriday Level 1

                Tim,

                  did you see this Adobe article by Todd Kopriva yet?  Says it's fixed in 5.5....so assuming 6 as well....BUT, my prores transcodes are NOT what i see in PrPro or AE.....still slight shifing of colors....

                 

                Article:  http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2010/05/prores-4444-and-prores-422-in.html

                 

                **i have not done this though....

                • 5. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                  Tim_Wreyford Level 1

                  Johnny,

                  Yeah I saw this link too, I followed the instructions but it seems that it is fixed in CS6, but yeah It hasn't helped my Prores exports either.

                  The gamma tag seems to be set to 'false' - I tried altering it to 'true' but it had no effect - not that I really new what I was doing - was just being hopefull !

                  I have been using Davinci resolve lite, which I love BUT QuickTime exports are still effected.

                   

                   

                  So I could be wrong but it's almost as if QuickTime is only fully gamma compatible with FCP and Color.

                   

                  I would love to know how other people who have to deliver in QuickTime have solved this, but after hours of research I don't know that I'm gonna find a solution- which I'm having a hard time under standing!

                  • 6. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                    Dan Ramirez Adobe Employee

                    Hi Tim and everyone else. This is Dan Ramirez from the After Effects QA team. I'm not with technical support; I'm on the product team and have done a lot of quicktime gamma testing in After Effects. I'm happy to help, but I need a better understanding of what problem(s) you're actually experiencing with After Effects CS6. Please be very specific about things like FCP7, FCPX, QT7, and QTX because they all introduce new variables into the equation and in many cases; Apple's the one with control of the situation.

                    Cheers,

                    Dan Ramirez

                    After Effects

                    QA Engineer

                    • 7. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                      Tim_Wreyford Level 1

                      Hi Dan,

                       

                      thanks for responding to the thread!

                       

                      My problem was more Premier Pro than After Effects - but the first link i posted at the top of the page i used this patch and it seemed to keep the gamma of my Prores files consistent accross After Effects, Premier Pro and Final Cut Pro.

                       

                      When i tried the patch on CS6 it didnt seem to make a difference.

                       

                      Anyway most of the time i have used Final Cut Pro but now i have moved over to CS6 - and im starting to get a better understanding of the whole quicktime gamma shift - and i realise it is a Apple issue and not a Adobe one.

                       

                      I have found if i export for the web using Premier Pro or Media encoder in a mp4 and then view the file in VLC player / or on vimeo through FireFox web browser then the images look the same as when they where in Premior Pro.

                       

                      If i view them through Quicktime Player 7 or Safari web browser they look different.

                       

                      So i now will not view the exports with any quicktime based application as it seems to change the Gamma.

                       

                      And i am happy that i now understand that quicktime player in general seems to make thing look different and not to use it.

                       

                      My one Problem is that When i need to supply a master file for transfering to HDCAM tape the Lab that does this for me requests a Prores 422HQ file and they play out this file through Final Cut Pro to HDCAM tape.

                       

                      So i am back to having a Gamma shift for this type of delivery method.

                       

                      The other day i was doing some tests and i tried a DNxHD 185mb 10bit export - first in rec709  -  which still had the Gamma shift

                       

                      And then in  RGB - i imported the RGB file into Final Cut Pro and the iamge looked exactly the same as it did in Premier Pro.

                       

                      So i could supply them a DNxHD 185mb 10bit RGB file for them to Playout from FCP to HDCAM tape -

                       

                      my question is it ok to supply a master file for broadcast in RGB?

                       

                      My understanding of this is a bit thin but i thought i was supposed to stay in rec709 for broadcast.

                       

                      If so then great, im a happy camper !

                       

                      But if not what is the workaround to make the master Prores file exported from Premier to look the same in Final Cut Pro?

                       

                      Thanks in advance for any advice,

                       

                      Cheers,

                       

                      Tim

                      • 8. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                        marq5.1 Level 1

                        I'm just curious, have either of you tried the newly available Adobe Speed Grade software? The only comment I've seen so far was that it was lacking instructions. Unfortunately I'm not equipped to compare color corrections on my setup. I have just been trusting that WISIWIG. I'm not surprised that it is not though.

                         

                        My rationale is that the people who view the projects that I work on do not have calibrated monitors, the stuff I have done has never looked the same twice on any of the screens I've seen it on. And I of course do not work for broadcast.

                         

                        But anyway WYSIWYG should be a basic standard. I don't understand why this is so difficult to achieve. I'll be watching this thread.

                        • 9. Re: Prores 4444 colors and gamma shift..
                          Dan Ramirez Adobe Employee

                          Hi Tim.

                           

                          my question is it ok to supply a master file for broadcast in RGB?

                           

                          If the FCP timeline's output meets broadcast standards, I don't see how that would be a problem. I think this is a question for whomever you're supplying the master to.

                           

                          But if not what is the workaround to make the master Prores file exported from Premier to look the same in Final Cut Pro?

                           

                          A simple gamma adjustment of 1.2 in FCP often does the trick for me.