6 Replies Latest reply: Jun 12, 2012 1:37 AM by Neil Wilkes RSS

    Specs for duplication

    JamesValis Community Member

      I am just finishing up authoring a Blu-ray project in Encore 5.1

       

      The firm creating doing the duplication of the discs for distribution requires:

       

      Source Master - All images must be formatted for BD CMF Type C.

       

      If I simply author a disc using Enocore will the resulting Blu-ray disc conform to their requirement?  Can I just send this disc off to them to make 1000 copies?

       

      Thanks in advance for any answers!

       

      James

       

       

        • 1. Re: Specs for duplication
          Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

          Type C?!?!

          That's very odd indeed, as it is normally Type A.

          A Type C image is one with all the AACS & Media Key Block information already applied and this would require you to have a content providers agreement with AACS in place.

          AACS Signing:

          The replicator is now ready to submit the unsigned content certificate, along with the required

          fees, to the AACS Licensing Authority. AACS LA will digitally sign the content certificate and

          return it to the replicator along with the current content revocation list (CRL). The replication

          facility then applies the signed content certificate to the image by embedding the content

          certificate file and CRL file into the proper location in the CMF image. Additional Media Key

          Block (MKB) information is also added to the image at this stage. The image is now called a

          Type C image. You image is now ready for mastering. It has encrypted contents, complete

          AACS key information, and a signed content certificate.

           

           

           

          This is something Encore as it stands simply cannot do unless you have the BluStreakTracer addon installed.

           

          Are you really sure they want Type C, and not Type A??

           

           

          AACS Encryption:

          Once an image has passed incoming inspection, it is ready for AACS encryption. When an

          image is delivered to the factory, the user data is unencrypted and there is no AACS

          information present in the image. An image in this state is called a Type A image and it is not

          ready to be mastered. Unlike DVD’s CSS encryption, which could be performed on-the-fly

          during glass mastering, AACS requires the encryption to be performed offline ahead of time.

          This is because each image needs to be digitally signed by the AACS Licensing Authority

          before it can be mastered, a process which can take up to 48 hours.

          During the AACS encryption process, part of the AACS key information will be generated and

          the audio video stream (.m2ts) files will be encrypted according to specification. The Eclipse

          ImageCopy encryption software performs these functions and then does an optional bit-for-bit

          verification of the encrypted data to your original source.

          The encryption system will also calculate hash values of the encrypted data to fill in the content

          hash tables which are stored in the AACS content certificate. These hash values and hash

          tables link the AACS digital signature to the content on the disc and must be calculated and

          recorded in the content certificate that will be submitted to AACSLA for signing.

          An image in this state is a Type B image. It has encrypted contents, a title key, and an

          unsigned content certificate with valid hash values.

          Type C just sounds, well, wrong.

          • 2. Re: Specs for duplication
            JamesValis Community Member

            Thanks for your reply!!  Where did you quote that stuff from re: AACS encryption and AACS Licensing?

             

            That Blue Streak Tracer software looks to only for Mac's.  I've done this on the PC version.  Any thoughts on an add-on that will do it on the PC side?

             

            My client sent on to me the quote from Cinram for the duplication.  I've asked if Cinram will take a Type A and do the stuff themselves.  

             

            I presume I output a disc image for duplication as opposed to simply sending a burned BD-r?

             

            In the quote Cinram specifies:

             

             

            Source Master - All images must be formatted for BD CMF Type C.

             

            • 3. Re: Specs for duplication
              Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

              JamesValis wrote:

               

              Thanks for your reply!!  Where did you quote that stuff from re: AACS encryption and AACS Licensing?

               

              That Blue Streak Tracer software looks to only for Mac's.  I've done this on the PC version.  Any thoughts on an add-on that will do it on the PC side?

               

              My client sent on to me the quote from Cinram for the duplication.  I've asked if Cinram will take a Type A and do the stuff themselves.  

               

              I presume I output a disc image for duplication as opposed to simply sending a burned BD-r?

               

              In the quote Cinram specifies:

               

               

              Source Master - All images must be formatted for BD CMF Type C.

               

               

              Interesting.

              I'm PC myself as well, and have to confess I do not use Encore at all for BD work because of it's limitations.

              Whether or not you can send a BD-R depends entirely on the duplication company, and I must confess the thought of relying on written media frightens the bejesus out of me.

              With BD-R you may get lucky, and not have many returns but with BD-R DL you are probably about to enter a world of pain & hurt. Burn speed is critical - I just yesterday had a disc image I compiled & wrote to BD-RE DL for proofing at my end that worked just fine, but I stupidly wrote a BD-R DL at max speed and got problems (audio in one of the menus gave me static instead of sound where it is perfect on the BD-RE DL disc, the thing would not play in one player & crashed another one etc)

              How many are you making, if you do not mind me asking? If it is really 1,000 copies you may be better off getting replication & biting the bullet on  the AACS requirements. You will need a content providers agreement in place, which will cost either a one-off payment of $3,000 or else annual payments of $500.

              Duplication = written discs, and thereflectivity seriously is not nearly as good as replicated and with replicated titles the disc is a lot more compatible with more players.

              Problem is that AACS is mandatory for replicated discs......and I have no idea at all about a PC addon for this, which considering there are absolutely NO tools at all for authoring BD to replication standard on a mac except for Encore.........

               

              We're rapidly heading OT here but I am happy to send you a copy of the AACS related & replication related documents I have - just send me your email addy in a PM.

              I'll also try to put a proper "what happens at replication" thread together, as this is a minefield for the unwary as I know only too well.....

              • 4. Re: Specs for duplication
                JamesValis Community Member

                Yes, the initial print run is 1000 copies.  My client, the maker of the movie, is handling all the AACS compliance stuff and paying for the duplication.  I've just Authored the beast - pretty complicated with 3 versions of the movie, commentary, slideshows, and a making of video.  Japanese to boot.

                 

                I did find another software that does "pre-mastering" at eclipsedata.com but no prices or system specs are listed on their website.  I've emailed the sales folk looking for info.

                 

                I'd PM you my email but I'm rather new to this board and after clicking about quickly I don't seem to see how to do it.

                 

                I appreciate your input!

                • 5. Re: Specs for duplication
                  JamesValis Community Member

                  It seems I didn't hide my email in my profile so you can find it there.

                  • 6. Re: Specs for duplication
                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                    Hi James.

                    Email sent, along with 3 documents:

                    1 - AACS for Independent producers

                    2 - Understanding what happens at Replication Facility

                    3 - a sample price quote for 1,000 replicated BD discs (this is for information only, and not an offer from us as we do not replicate - we only author, although we can advise on replication to our clients).

                     

                    As I've already said things do not look right here - Duplication is using written media and a Type C image is one where content has been verified for spec compliance,  all AACS is done, scrambling is done & Media Keys have been applied - it is the final stage before actually pressing the discs so the duplication company asking for a Type C image simply makes no sense at all to me. It's almost like a hospital surgeon asking you to supply your own anaesthetist & scalpels!

                    Initially, AACS requires the Content Provider (you) to sign an agreement - all details are included in the documents I sent you and from there you should get a Provider ID code (4 digits) that identifies you as the content owner. This code will remain the same for every disc you replicate for the duration of your content provider agreement, and the fees mentioned there are done by either a single one-off payment of US$3,000 or annual payments of US$500 and I think this is for a period of 10 years. Best to check this though.

                    The rest of the AACS fees - the "per title" fees - should all be taken care of by your replication company. This will be built into your price, and includes a per title fee of US$500 (this was US$1300) for the AACS Title Key Certificate, plus a per disc royalty of US$0.04. Adding the encryption is not a job for the faint-hearted and is one I would never even attempt to undertake as it is the job of the replication company. In addition, if you are to do all this yourself you will need licensing - which for logo & spec books (which if supplying Type C images will be needed) will set you back a minimum of US$4,000 for each of the 2 spec books required for a 5 year term only. Check the link for details, but the more I think about this the more I think your duplication company is talking nonsense with Type C images!

                     

                    It is possible that the quote is misleading, and they realy are duplicating the discs in which case they have their terminology all wrong as you cannot scramble a written disc. I'd run a mile at this point and find a better, more reliable company and get them replicated as any duplication company that thinks they need a Type C image is clueless.

                    I have attached a graphical representation of the steps in replication (this is included in the PDF I mailed you) so everyone can see what I am banging on about here.

                     

                    BD_Replication.jpg

                    Finally - why replicate instead of duplicate?

                    It's simply much more reliable than a written disc. The BD specs are new & evolving so it is very important to make sure your players are always up to date with their firmware - much more so than with DVD, and the Gods alone know that was bad enough with written media. You have the eternal issues with correct burn speeds & media/burner matching. I am having this hassle even as I write this, as I just found out the BD-RE DL image (written at 1x) is perfect yet a BD-R DL image (written at 4x with no way to change) is not good - one menu plays static instead of it's designed 24-bit audio yet the BD-RE from the same image is just fine, so as you can see there are definite quality issues with written discs.

                     

                    Where are you based? Maybe I can recommend a good replication company - replicated costs will be a lot less than you might think.....

                     

                    Hope this helps