7 Replies Latest reply on Apr 12, 2013 3:35 AM by nikhil.salunke_969

    Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean

    Edward_01 Level 1

      IDCS6 (PC) upon opening a file that was converted from ID2 I see this screen splash:

      6-22-2012 4-26-34 PM.png

       

      In Preferences | Dictionary, I have recently told Indd to use a custom dictionary that I have set up and I have dragged this to the top of the list. The only other dictionary that is available is the standard one that comes with Indesign, which to me is unforunately named "User Dictionary". 

       

      Some ?s:

      1) In the above image when it indicates "Use the settings in the user dictionary?" is Indesign referring to the dictionary that comes with the product, OR is it referring to whatever dictionary I have set in Preferences? I would hope it is the latter.

       

      2) Can you give a few examples of what "hyphenation exceptions" would be? I imagine that if I have selected a particular word at end of a line that Indd has hyphenated and then in the Character palette assigned "No Break" then this is an exception.

       

      3) What does Indd do if I choose "Yes"; and what does it do if I choose "No"?
      Hopefully If I choose "No" Indd will retain any manual overrides that exist in the file e.g. "No Break", but will continue to use the hyphenation rules/preferences that are in what ever dictionary has been selected there.

       

      4) In testing the above, I do not see that Indesign gives you anyway to easily see what it might have changed about hyphenation if you choose the "Yes" option. Is there a way to see what it has changed?

        • 1. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          2) Can you give a few examples of what "hyphenation exceptions" would be? I imagine that if I have selected a particular word at end of a line that Indd has hyphenated and then in the Character palette assigned "No Break" then this is an exception.

          If you don't like the way ID hyphenates a word you can add the word to a  dictionary. So in the example below I've added a custom dictionary in prefs then added the word hyphenation to my dictionary via Edit>Spelling>User Dictionary. By clicking the Hyphenate button I can override the default hyphenation for the word:

           

           

          By default ID will break hyphenation at hy-

          Screen shot 2012-06-23 at 9.16.44 AM.png

           

          But if I remove the first hyphen and add the word  to my dictionary, hyphenation will no longer break at hy- but will still break at hyphen-:

           

          Screen shot 2012-06-23 at 9.17.21 AM.png

           

          The Character>No Break feature prevents a word from breaking at all and doesn't care what your dictionary or prefs are:

           

          Screen shot 2012-06-23 at 9.17.42 AM.png

           

          On replacing dictionaries:

           

          http://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/kb/add_cs_dictionaries.html

          • 2. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
            Edward_01 Level 1

            Thx @Rob I understand more of what "hyphenation exception" means, but am still confused by spash screen shown in my OP. Since the file in question uses my custom dictionary which has been set in Preferences as the dictionary that ID should always use for all docs, I definitely have "hyphenation exceptions." I have words in the custom dictionary such as personal names as well as my own preference for how to hyphenate words that are in the standard dictionary but which I prefer to hyphenate differently. Hence any ID file I create is likely to have "hyphenation exceptions" if such owrds appear in it.

             

            The splash screen seems to imply that the "hyphenation expceptions" in the given file are local over rides that do NOT match my custom dictionary. Is that a correct understanding?  If I simpy apply the "no break" command to the file is that what might trigger this splash screen upon opening the file?

             

            Basically, I have an answer to question 2 in my OP, but not to 1, 3, and 4. An answer to ?3 is really most critical - what does ID do if you answer "Yes"  versus if you answer "No" and what then is changed in your document. (Perhaps it is relevant that I have recently converted all ID2 files to CS6ID and in ID2 I had only used the standard dictionary that ID offers and had added words to it. With the conversion to new software I have also created a custom dictionary by importing my old ID2 dictionary and then giving it a special name and new location on server.)

            • 3. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              I'm not a user of custom dictionaries, but my gut feeling is the warning is about words that are not in the standard dictionary, and I would say yes here, but I think you could test this pretty easily.

               

              Make a choice and openthe file, then do a search using Find/Change for one of your custom words and see how it's hyphenated. If not as you expect, close teh file without saving, reopen and make the other choice.

               

              It might possibly be faster to search visually. You can also try Preferences > Composition and check the H&J Violations box.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                It's complicated.

                 

                It looks to me like the Preferences Dictionaries are cumulative. So, if your language is set to US English and you've saved out an additional US English dictionary the exception lists saved in both dictionaries will be used when Compose Using User Dictionary is selected

                 

                 

                Screen shot 2012-06-24 at 6.04.01 PM.png

                You edit the dictionaries via Edit>Spelling>User Dictionary by selecting a Target, so here I can target the default US English dictionary, my custom US Dictionary, or  document specific exceptions (note my custom dictionary won't show if another Language is chosen).

                 

                If I add an exception to the document (Untitled-7) it won't be used because I've chosen Compose Using User Dictionary in Prefs.

                 

                InDesignScreenSnapz001.png

                 

                If I add conflicting exceptions to the document dictionary and to one of the user dictionaries,   go back to Prefs and change Compose Using to User Dictionary and Document, I'll get a warning forcing me to choose one because all 3 exception lists are now being used:

                 

                Screen shot 2012-06-24 at 6.25.38 PM.png

                Screen shot 2012-06-24 at 6.25.50 PM.png

                Screen shot 2012-06-24 at 6.26.31 PM.png

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
                  Edward_01 Level 1

                  Thx @Peter I was planning on doing some testing and seeing for myself what actually takes place. I had not known of Preferences>Composition H&J Violations choice and will explore that in addition to other things I have thought of.

                   

                  As an aside:  It seems like part of the poor clarity on this "issue" is that Indd does not clearly define what it means by a "hyphenation exception." It seems that any hyphenation that is in a file that does NOT exactly meet the original hyphenation rule that was set by the Indd standard dictionary is considered to be a "hyphenation exception." To me it'd be far more logical to consider that any rule for hyphenation (whether in the original dictionary, or a custom dictionary) is a rule, AND that a document has an excepton only if what you have modified locally violates what a rule.

                   

                  What further muddies things is that in the original dictionary some words have more than one place where Indd might consider hyphenating the word and treats those that have a single ~ as the first choice it will try to use, but it also will consider those with ~~ or even ~~~ as 2nd and 3rd choices.  If one locally over rides such a word hyphenation in a document and forces the 2nd choice to be used rather than the 1st choice, does Indd consider this to be a hyphenation exception?

                   

                  Since I am dealing with a newsletter printed publication with narrow column width, understanding the hyphenation game at times is fairly important to getting the appearance and readability that one wants. As with other things, the proof is in the pudding and by testing I will create some experience for myself to go by.  Just never ran into this splash screen warning in the past 7 years so am just facing figuring out what it means.

                  ===========

                   

                  Again thanks for the help.

                  • 6. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
                    Edward_01 Level 1

                    Thx @Rob I was writing prior post when you were posting. Yes, it seems it can get fairly complicated - thanks for your research. Fortunately for me, I have things set in Preferences that dictionaries are to be used in this order:

                    Our company custom dictionary (stored on our server so that all work stations use it)

                     

                    User Dictionary (the Indd dictionary supplied with the software, and I still wish they'd call it something else as it is not my User Dictionary but the one that they supplied and in my case I am choosing to use it as the 2nd authority of how to handle things).

                     

                     

                    Typically the only local over ride to hyphenation that I'd make in an actual document would be to apply the No Break command. I will also often adjust spacing between words for a few lines of text in a column so that hyphenation and spacing end up the way that I'd like.

                     

                    Looks like y testing and experimentation might be a bit more extensive than I had hoped. I am beginning to hypothesize that the reason I have never seen this splash screen warning in the past 7 years is that we always had each of our work stations use the User Dictionary stored on local C drive. There are significant advantages for our small biz in having "our exceptions" in our own Company Dictionary on the server so that everyone is playing with the same deck of cards when editing the same file.

                     

                    Thanks all for your help - as usual this forum is a great resource.

                     

                    P.S. @ Rob, I see now in your screen image that the zulu.udc dictionary that you created is in 2nd position in the list whereas in my own set up, my Company Dictionary is in first position. It took me a while to figure out that you can click drag to sort the order in which Indd will use the dictionaries. I realize that this brings up yet an other potential lack of clarity from Indd. I have understood that the sequence of the dictionaries means this:

                    Look for the word in the topmost dictionary: If it is found there, use those rules.
                         If it is not found there, go to the next lower dictionary.

                     

                    In fact, the game might be just the opposite ... meaning the farther down the list the dictionary is, it takes precedence over anything that has come before it.

                     

                    And in all of this I am not even dealing with a dictionary that has been incorporated into the document file itself. Incorporating it is often suggested if one is sending the file out to a service provider that might inadvertently change the document because of dictionary settings that the servive provider has.

                     

                    Fortunately, I have never run into problems with this in the past, but perhaps I was always skating on thin ice before.

                     

                    Message was edited by: Edward_01to add P.S.

                    • 7. Re: Seek clarification on what "hyphenation exceptions" mean
                      nikhil.salunke_969

                      can u do this hyphenation(for all dictionary words) in scripting i need this it would be of great help