18 Replies Latest reply on Mar 21, 2017 5:43 PM by kevcarlson

    Rippling Track Keyframes

    m2dpost

      Hi Folks,

       

      Moving over from FCP and I am up against a wall on how to do this. I have a track on the timeline that I have added audio track keyframes to with the mixer. I now want to cut a section out of that track and ripple lift it out of the the sequence. When I do this the track keyframes from the audio remain static and now all of the keyframes from the lift point on are off. Is there a way to lift that section out and have the audio track keyframes lift out as well? In escence doing a ripple on the audio track keyframes.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Mike

      M2 Digital Post

      San Diego, CA.

        • 1. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
          BenjaminMarkus Level 4

          I don't believe that's possible at the moment.  Editors usually use the mixer to keyframe the audio once the edit is completely locked, so it's not a very common way of working, but you can file a feature request here if you want...

           

          You can file a feature request here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish . More on how to give feedback: http://bit.ly/93d6NF

          • 2. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
            m2dpost Level 1

            Hey Ben, Thanks for the reply. I see the issue is that I added track keyframes instead of clip keyframes. Is there a way to use the mixer to ride levels on a clip and add keyframes on the fly? Or is the mixer only for adding track keyframes?

             

            Thanks again,

             

            Mike

            • 3. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
              BenjaminMarkus Level 4

              I think it's the mixer only but not sure.

              • 4. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                Is there a way to use the mixer to ride levels on a clip

                 

                No.  The mixer only works at the track level.  You need to work on the clip directly via the Effects Control Panel to get clip keyframes.

                • 5. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                  m2dpost Level 1

                  Thanks Jim for the reply. So maybe I am approaching this just with the wrong mind set. Let me ask you this. When it comes to mixing audio what is your workflow for Premier?

                   

                  Ben suggested that you wait until picture lock to use the mixer to mix on the track level, but this seems odd to me. If that is the case what do you do whem a client wants to delete a shot? If I mix on the track level then all the keyframes on that track after the deleted shot would be no longer valid. I would need to remix the track from that point out after deleting the shot. Do you just do all the mixing manually adding one keyframe at a time on the clip level? I am assuming that I am missing something here since I am coming at it with an FCP/Avid mind set.

                   

                  Thanks again!

                   

                  Mike

                  • 6. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                    When it comes to mixing audio what is your workflow for Premier?

                     

                    I work at the clip level, setting exact and precise volume adjustments numerically.  The mixer method is far too "imprecise" for my OCD temperament.

                    • 7. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                      Track Keyframes, added with the Audio Mixer, are Track-specific, so it does not work easily to then do Clip-specific edits.

                       

                      Do those first, before you add Track Keyframes. Track Keyframes do not care what you do at the Clip-level.

                       

                      I would suggest that you change your workflow a bit.

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                        m2dpost Level 1

                        Thanks Jim, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

                         

                        Mike

                        • 9. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Jim,

                           

                          Here we differ a bit, in that I do the initial editing at the Clip level. When done, I then move to the Track level and the Audio Mixer, for the final mix.

                           

                          Each has its strengths and weaknesses, but if one paces themselves, and works with only the strengths of each, life is much easier.

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                            m2dpost Level 1

                             

                            I would suggest that you change your workflow a bit.

                             

                            Hey Bill,

                             

                                 Totally agree with you on this, I learned years ago that you need to think like the edit system you are using to make it work. So let me ask you this... What is your workflow for editing audio? Do you just keyframe manually at the clip level? Or do you use the mixer at the track level as well? It seems to me that editing at the clip level would be the most efective for when it comes to making changes in the future. For example the the scenario mentioned above where a client wants to delete a clip or two. But without the ability to use the mixer at the clip level it seems like that makes the mixer usless which is a shame.

                             

                                 A secondary question would be... What do you do in a situation where a client wants a scene removed that will effect a track that already has keyframes on it? Again I am just trying to better understand the workflow here so I can retrain my brain.

                             

                            Thanks,

                             

                                 Mike

                            • 11. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                              BenjaminMarkus Level 4

                              Personally, I don't do any audio mixing at all, until the entire thing is picture locked.  If the client okays the picture lock then we'd all like to hope that means it's locked and they won't ask you to change the edit.  Sound design and mixing is just as time consuming and important a step as the editing process, and I know that sound designers are hesitant to start work on projects that aren't locked so they don't have to go back and change things in the future.  This is especially a problem if they've started spotting sound effects cause you move one clip and everything goes out of sync.  Of course the world's not perfect and the client might ask you to change something and in that case, you may have to re-sync and re-keyframe.  But, If you do work on the audio before picture lock I wouldn't put too much work into it and I'd definitely follow Bill Hunt's advice and work on the clip level first until you actually get it locked.  Then if you're gonna do a final mix in Premiere Pro I'd start work on the, track and use the mixer only for the final mix.  If you're going out to an actual audio editing program like Audition you can go to the edit menu  and click "Edit in Audition," or if you want to continue in other programs such as ProTools, Logic or Ableton Live, you might want to export your audo to an OMF (Open Media Framework).  OMFs are cool cause they will retain all of your audio edits and timeline structure along with any audio automation and cross dissolves you did in Premiere Pro.

                              • 12. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                My workflow is very similar to Ben's above, though on a bit less structured/strict basis. However, that is probably due to different types of clients.

                                 

                                Still, I do lock down the Video, when I get approval, and move on to the Audio. There might have been some Audio work done to get to the above point, but not THAT much.

                                 

                                As I am not doing music videos, where things might be totally in reverse, the Audio comes last in the editing process, whether it's final cutting of it, sweetening it, or scoring for the Project. Last step is usually authoring for delivery.

                                 

                                Good luck,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                  BenjaminMarkus Level 4

                                  I'm an animator at heart, so I also like to work with sound and music from the beginning, which is usually the reverse workflow from live action.  That's why I rely on OMFs so I can move the sound and timeline structure in between programs.  Right now I'm making a hybrid film that combines live action and animation.  We haven't shot the live action stuff yet, but I will record an entire temp soundtrack based on the screenplay  in order to create and edit a detailed animatic for pre-visualization.  A strange workflow, but whatever works, works.

                                  • 14. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                    m2dpost Level 1

                                    Wow, don't take this wrong gents but I am completely amazed that you can work this way. If I was to send a cut to my corporate clients with a rough audio mix and explain to them that we need to get picture lock prior to final audio that would go over like a lead balloon. Even if I didn't get 15 emails about how the audio was bad, I still wouldn't know when we really had picture lock. Would it be the fist time the client told me to lock it, or the 4th. They are clients, they change their mind every other day. Now I do have broadcast clients that this work flow would work with as they understand it, but not corporate clients.

                                     

                                    So it looks like my only choice is to do the audio mix at the clip level with the pen tool. I have to say that this doesn't really endear me to Premier. I haven't mixed audio that way since maybe a 1998 version of Avid. Adobe, please add the ability to ripple the track keyframes please. I think for many editors coming from the FCP world this is going to seem like a basic editing feature that is missing.

                                     

                                    Thanks again for the responses, it's much appreciated,

                                     

                                    Mike

                                    • 15. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                      BenjaminMarkus Level 4

                                      You can file a feature request here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish . More on how to give feedback: http://bit.ly/93d6NF

                                      • 16. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                        m2dpost Level 1

                                        Thanks Ben, I just submitted my request.

                                         

                                        Mike

                                        • 17. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          Different clients, I guess.

                                           

                                          Good luck,

                                           

                                          Hunt

                                          • 18. Re: Rippling Track Keyframes
                                            kevcarlson

                                            I was looking, hoping to find a way to get track keyframes to ripple.  If they have added that for 2017 I haven't found it yet.

                                            One work around for others, that I have used is to just export my audio as a new file (with all the keyframes active) and then cutting up that new track. 

                                             

                                            It's not beautiful, but it can save time.