39 Replies Latest reply on Nov 12, 2012 6:13 AM by Hewlet_Zar

    Scopes / Color-Correction Question

    canoli99 Level 1

      When I apply a color-correction effect - RGB Curves for instance - before I make a single adjustment the scopes jump to new values, as if I had made an adjustment. When I click the eyeball to turn the effect off the scopes all go back to their original values.

       

      The Composite Video doesn't change until I actually make an adjustment, but the scopes all register some change - before I make a change.

       

      What is going on here? It seems so basic I must be missing something simple.

       

      Any help would be appreciated - Thank You!

       

      [edit: btw the changes in the scopes are not small or barely noticeable - they're huge and obvious. Thanks again.]

        • 1. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
          JoshWeiss reTooled Level 2

          I can't be of much help, other than to say, I tested it and didn't experience this problem.

           

          Can you tell us more about your codec of your footage, sequence settings, etc?

          • 2. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
            canoli99 Level 1

            Thanks for your reply. The most recent example was a 2-min slide show I created in AfterFX, saved as a PremPro project and opened in PremPro.

             

            There shouldn't be any codec problems since nothing is being rendered yet, other than for playback in the Program Monitor.

             

            The AfterFX comp settings: 32-bit, Pro Photo color space... 35 stills, sequenced into a slide show. All 35 layers have a CC Composite and a Fast Blur effect, along with a Scale "effect." The layers start blurry, push in and become clear - transition is Front-Layer Dissolve, each layer runs for 4 seconds.

             

            The only problem I know of is CC Composite - Premiere Pro warned me it's not available in Premiere Pro. Nevertheless the effect rendered perfectly fine.

             

            I'll have to check whether it happens on all video footage or just the stills /  slide show from AfterFX.

            • 3. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
              JoshWeiss reTooled Level 2

              Hmmm, I'm guessing your problem may lay in the compatability of the effects....

              • 4. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                CAOLSEN

                Use the Fast Color Corrector and it won't happen.

                • 5. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                  canoli99 Level 1

                  It happens with Fast Color Corrector too.

                   

                  Maybe it is a compatibility problem ... ?

                   

                  [EDIT: just checked 2 other projects - video clips various DSLRs, composited together in PPro...No problems with either of them - the scopes stay put when I apply a color-correction effect - until I make an adjustment.

                   

                  Must be something in the AfterFX comp that PPro doesn't like. I don't know why a missing CC Composite effect would cause this phenomenon but so far I can't recreate the problem in any other project.]

                   

                  I guess I won't lose any sleep over it ... next time I try saving a PPro project out of AfterFX I'll see what happens.

                   

                  Thanks for your replies you guys!

                  • 6. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                    Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                    I feel that you are dealing with exactly the same problem that was discussed in the following link:

                    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/996803?start=0&tstart=0

                     

                    So you are not the only who suffers from this bug. Although we were said that it would be fixed, an update appeared in the meantime, but nothing has changed.

                    • 7. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                      canoli99 Level 1

                      Thanks for your reply and the link ... I'll have to look closer and see if my composite video is being affected. At first glance it doesn't appear anything changes in the video, only the scopes.

                       

                      I'll update later once I can check it out.

                       

                      Thanks again.

                      • 8. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                        josephs51576386 Level 3

                        It's not a bug what is happening is that it's basically legalizing the color... Premiere has always done this. In some instances you do end up noticing a slight difference in the regular window. This was something that used to confuse me as well back when I first noticed it and then I figured out what was going on. If you notice if drops everything within legal range (basically) right after you put almost any effect on a clip. Even when you use a sharpen effect it does the same thing. If your source video has values that are above 100 then you apply effects to it, it will get pulled down a bit.

                        • 9. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                          canoli99 Level 1

                          What I get on the scopes is the opposite of "legalizing the color." The readings go off the charts, way out of bounds.The waveform and RGB Parade scopes go through the roof, the top of the graph, way past 120 or 100, depending on the scope I happen to be viewing. Lum values become clipped and the entire graph looks hideous - not at all representative of what's in the video.

                           

                          No it's definitely a bug or in my case maybe it's an incompatibility with an AfterFX comp. I don't see this behavior on  RED footage or anything from the 5DMkII. I haven't tried working those files in AfterFX first, then importing (or "saving as" a PremPro project) into Premiere Pro, which is what I did with the current project.

                           

                          This current project originated in AfterFX. It's a bunch of stills I shot with a 5D and timed into a slide show in AfterFX. I saved-as a Premiere Pro project directly from AfterFX - maybe that's not a good way to work - probably should've let Dynamic Link take a crack at it. But it's in the File menu - "Save As Premiere Pro project" - so I assume I should be able to use it.

                           

                          Anyway it's either that or else maybe Premiere Pro doesn't like the 32-bit Pro Photo color space I used in AfterFX...maybe it didn't translate very well into the Premeire Pro project. Of course I can't imagine why that would cause a Color Correction effect to behave like this...

                           

                          This is pretty bizarre behavior. Thankfully it's not happening on all my projects, only some.

                          • 10. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                            josephs51576386 Level 3

                            Wow that is strange in my personal experince it's always gone to 100

                            • 11. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                              canoli99 Level 1

                              it really is. I should post a .jpg of these values - serious ugliness.

                              • 12. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                josephs51576386 Level 3

                                Try putting the broadcast color effect on the clip and see if that brings your  levels back down or not. Either way though you obviously are seeing some sort of problem if it's raising stuff to 120 on the YC...

                                • 13. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                  canoli99 Level 1

                                  Broadcast Colors did bring them back down - basically reset the scopes to pre-RGB Curves.

                                   

                                  But here is how it looks with only RGB Curves applied - no adjustments were made as you can see.

                                  Ever seen anything like this before?

                                   

                                  RGBCurvesOn_01;58;16.jpg

                                   

                                  Here's how the scopes looks without any effects applied.

                                   

                                  RGBCurvesOff_01;58;16.jpg

                                  • 14. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                    josephs51576386 Level 3

                                    When I get to my work edit station on Monday I'll attempt to recreate this with a few clips. But no I haven't ever seen this specific problem it's for sure strange.

                                    • 15. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                      josephs51576386 Level 3

                                      What version of Premiere are you using? Because back when I used CS5 the sharpen effect used to change the scope but now in CS6 I just tried some effects that used to change the scope without changing the picture much and none of them appear to change the scope anymore. So I'm needing to know which version you are using so I know which version to use when attempting to re-create your issue.

                                      • 16. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                        canoli99 Level 1

                                        Thanks. Yeah if you find out anything  let me know. The only clue I can give you is if you can try something that originates in AfterFX. I've only seen this phenomenon on sequences that have come from After Effects The screen shots are of a sequence from AfterFX, 16-bit  Pro Photo, linear working space (I said 32-bit earlier - it was actually 16-bit).

                                         

                                        [edit: I'm in CS5.5 Production Premium on Windows 7 Pro 64.

                                         

                                        btw on this same sequence "Sharpen" effect does the same thing RGB Curves does - throws the scopes out of whack. As soon as I apply another effect - I tried Unsharp Mask - the scopes go back to normal. That seems like it should be another clue but I can't figure out what it means.]

                                         

                                        Message was edited by: canoli99

                                        • 17. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                          canoli99 Level 1

                                          Okay I found the trouble - it's the MainConcept Renderer - or maybe one of the codecs in the suite (Mainconcept Codec Suite 5) that's causing the problems, though I doubt it's the codecs since the clip hasn't been rendered yet. It's the MainConcept Renderer, which is a GPU-based renderer similar to the Mercury Playback Engine.

                                           

                                          Once I switched to the MPE everything went back to normal - the scopes behave the way I expect them to.

                                           

                                          Okay so that's one less gripe with Premiere Pro...still quite a few to go unfortunately!

                                          • 18. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                            josephs51576386 Level 3

                                            Sorry to hear you are still unhappy with Premiere. In my personal opinon it's by far my favorite editor, but to each his own. Glad you figured out the issue though.

                                            • 19. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                              canoli99 Level 1

                                              no i'm not unhappy with it there's just a few things that drive me crazy that's all.

                                              • 20. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                What does ik look like if you drop the colorbar in the timeline?

                                                • 21. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                  Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                  We made tests raw video files from various camcorders: Sony EX1, Panasonic AG-AC160, Panasonic TM900. In all this tests the pixels shift and even more: changes the tones of the video (particularly in the midtones) just when we apply (without change anything) any tool of Color Correction tab. The "All Scopes" show this clearly. The same problem when we use Colorista II or Magic Bullet Looks. For us this video is the proof of the situation, please watch in 720p:

                                                   


                                                   

                                                  I remember perfectly that when I was talking about this issue, someone replied: "go to a different NLE!", with plenty of irony, of course. But the problem is not me, canoli99, Ann Bens or others who have seen this problem. The problem is in Premiere and somehow we received this confirmation from Steve Hoeg/Adobe "It can be fixed but we cannot commit to any timeframe. Fixing and testing changes can often take months".

                                                   

                                                  Only one detail that could help solve this bug: if we apply any tool of Color Correction tab on a AVCHD [4:2:0/8 bit] in the timeline, the problem occurs and the scopes jumped. BUT if we convert the same AVCHD to Cineform [4:2:2 or 4:4:4, 10 bit], put this new file Cineform in the timeline and then apply the same tool of Color Correction tab, the problem disappears and the scopes don't jumped.

                                                  • 22. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                    josephs51576386 Level 3

                                                    I tried to watch the video, however it says it's private. How much are the scopes changing? I tried taking some AVCHD footage from my Sony NX5U and I didn't see any notable jumps other than certain effects tend to clip stuff to around 100 or so on the YC.

                                                    • 23. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                      Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                      Sorry for the inconvenience, I don't know why the video was "private". Anyway, now is public and you'll can see how much are the scopes changing.

                                                      • 24. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                        josephs51576386 Level 3

                                                        Yeah that is something Premiere has done to me as long as I can remember. I'm going to test this tommorow when I arrive at work, I'm intrested to see if it does it with 4:2:2 ProRes files or not. Maybe it only effects things in 4:2:0 color space... Maybe it has something to do with the fact Premiere converts footage to 4:4:4 right in the timeline from what I have read. 

                                                         

                                                        http://forums.adobe.com/thread/825920

                                                         

                                                        Take a look a steve's reponse on the page, he explains how when using certain effects it converts the color space/info. That is most likely why when using 4:4:4 stuff or 4:2:2 you don't always see the issue.

                                                        • 25. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                          SpareWheel Level 2

                                                          Thanks for this Hewlet,

                                                           

                                                          I think this is what I'm seeing too - it's very very irritating. I'm using footage from a Sony Z5 so I guess that's 4:2:0 but even more irritating is Adobe's continued silence on providing a solution.

                                                           

                                                          It's no good providing a probable explanation, when those of us (and there are many) are not using 4:2:2 or do not use a proxy like Cineform. Is it too much to ask using All Scopes that our video levels are not subject to what I see is insertion losses. In any of these effects, what goes in does need to come out with either unity gain or with no effect applied.

                                                          • 26. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                            Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                            "Maybe it has something to do with the fact Premiere converts footage to 4:4:4 right in the timeline from what I have read."

                                                            [ComputerNovice25/Jul 22, 2012 8:49 PM]

                                                             

                                                            Let me be reluctant enough to think that's why the Scopes jumped (clearly showing a change of the red/green/blue tones) and inclusively a strange redistribution of the pixels in the video image, just when you apply any effect from the tab "Color Correction" or including MBLooks, Colorista, etc....

                                                            Ok, let's accept that all this is happening because when applying an effect Premiere converts footage to 4:4:4. But, if after applying an effect (for example Fast Color Corrector) we then apply another effect to the same clip (for example Three Way Color Corrector) the scopes jumped one more time!!! Don't tell me that now Premiere converts again to 4:4:4!!! Let's be serious, I find it hard to believe that it does it 10 times.

                                                             

                                                            Do not forget that Steve Hoeg is not only an employee, but also an engineer which I am sure knows what he tells. If he verified this bug and came back to say "It can be fixed but we cannot commit to any timeframe", it means that even he realized the problem, otherwize he would have said "We are sorry but we have nothing to fix because everything is all right".

                                                             

                                                            I did another very short test in which one can clearly see the diffence that Premiere treats an AVCHD/H264 4:2:0 and the same file converted to CineForm 4:4:4. So 4:2:0 vs. 4:4:4

                                                            That's for those who were difficult to admit that something wrong is happening, or those who even stranger, said they didn't see any difference.

                                                             

                                                            It's very simple and I think even a ten years old boy can apply this logic:

                                                            1. The Scopes jumped when applying an effect to a 4:2:0 video. If The Scopes (RGB Parade, YC Waveform...) shows rightly what happens with our video, then the tones are indeed influenced.

                                                            2. If The Scopes jumped but in reality there is no difference and nothing changes, as some may say, then it's clear that The Scope lies and is of no good.

                                                            Much clearer I can't say.

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            Just like Edius and Sony Vegas Pro, Premiere supports native editing H264. But it does it in a very strange way!

                                                            Although Steve Hoeg was kind enough to say that this bug can be fixed, I personally don't think it will happen, as long as there are too many over here constantly posting, but dominated by too much self-sufficiency and replies just as "edit in another soft if you don't like". Such indolence and self-sufficiency I haven't seen in any forum.

                                                            • 27. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                              SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                                                              There is a bug here, we thank you for bringing it to our attention, and are doing our best to fix it in a timely fashion. I don't think there is much more to the discussion than that.

                                                              • 28. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                                Thank you very much Steve for your feedback, I assure you we'll have all the necessary patience so that we may continue using Premiere.

                                                                Greetings.

                                                                • 29. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                  we'll have all the necessary patience

                                                                   

                                                                  Oh, don't do that.  Never give Adobe leeway when correcting a known bug.  They all need to be fixed "yesterday".

                                                                  • 30. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                    SpareWheel Level 2

                                                                    Quite right Jim,

                                                                     

                                                                    Why should I wait (and pay for) a bug fixed in CS7, when it should have been fixed in an update in CS5.

                                                                     

                                                                    (from a video engineer, not a software user).

                                                                    • 31. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                      josephs51576386 Level 3

                                                                      "Only one detail that could help solve this bug: if we apply any tool of Color Correction tab on a AVCHD [4:2:0/8 bit] in the timeline, the problem occurs and the scopes jumped. BUT if we convert the same AVCHD to Cineform[4:2:2 or 4:4:4, 10 bit], put this new file Cineform in the timeline and then apply the same tool of Color Correction tab, the problem disappears and the scopes don't jumped."

                                                                      This is what made me assume it might have to do with color space conversion. I was basing my guess off info that you had posted, however it was just a guess and clearly it was dead wrong. Because if you put two effects and it jumps two times that is clearly a bug. However nobody had given me that info when I offered up a possible suggestion. I did see a jump in your original clip though and also a difference in tones. I never denied that.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                        Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                                                        I have a theory.

                                                                         

                                                                        Since AVCHD is compressed in a manner that requires Premiere Pro to calculate the image in the frame (for B-frames), instead of just showing it (not all the data needed is in that particular frame), then if you are on a B-frame and not an I-frame, perhaps the calculation is the problem?

                                                                         

                                                                        If you tried this frame after frame after frame, would you eventually hit an I-frame and not see the problem?

                                                                         

                                                                        I downloaded sopme AVCHD but I could not get as dramatic a change as seen by others. Only a tiny little change in the reference window. So since I can't duplicate it, I can't check for myself.

                                                                         

                                                                        Just curious.

                                                                         

                                                                        By the way, I am a huge fan of converting Cineform brfore editing, so as far as I am concerned, the fact that converting solves the problem is pretty much the end of the story. For me anyway. Except fopr my curiosity.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                          SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                                                                          If you are interested in some of the technical details here this was caused by a precision issue converting from YUV Rec. 709 of the source files to YUV Rec. 601 as these particular effects required. There are colors (most obvious in dark blues & greens) that cannot be represented with 8-bits in both color spaces so our conversion here really should be done in floating point. Forcing another intermidiate color space conversion that maintains precision, such as some cases of transcoding, or certain other effects, would work around this particular case. The CUDA/OpenCL rendering path did not have this issue as it is entirely floating point, so would not cause a shift in the actual video, but it would still show in the scopes which are not accelerated.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                            converting from YUV Rec. 709 of the source files to YUV Rec. 601 as these particular effects required.

                                                                             

                                                                            Oh, that's no good.  I had assumed that all effects were working in the correct color space for the media - 601 for SD and 709 for HD.

                                                                             

                                                                            You guys might want to add a fourth label in the effects bin along with Accelerated, YUV and 32 to denote which ones will force an unwanted 601 downconversion.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                              josephs51576386 Level 3

                                                                              Agreed, I think the labels would be helpful. I'm going to make a feature request.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                                Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                                                I wouldn't have interfered in this topic if I hadn't seen that the discution continued. It's very interesting how almost all effects applied to a video affect the color tones, the luminace, the chrominance... So, I personally believe that is not a problem related only to some effects (like those from the tab "Color Correction" or MBLooks/Colorista) but also the way in wich every effect applied (without changing anything) affects the video.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Twixtor for example, if we put it on a video, the luminance and the chrominance of the video are affected. And all these without changing any parameter of the effect, just applied. YC Waveform and YCbCr Parade show it very clear. And Twixtor is not an effect from the category "Color Correction"/grading.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Anyway, we let Premiere in stand-by until this bug will be fixed and hope that it will happen in a future update of CS6 version or in the future CS7.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                                  SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                                                                                  This has been fixed in 6.0.2 and effects like the 3-way color corrector now operate directly in Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 depending on the source footage.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                                    Nice!  Thanks Steve.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Any that don't yet work properly?

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Scopes / Color-Correction Question
                                                                                      Hewlet_Zar Level 1

                                                                                      Thanks Steve, now you really can make a decent color correction using tools like Fast Color Corrector, RGB Curves or Three Way Color Corrector. Anyway, I guess you know that with the other instruments like Color Balance, Change to Color, Brightness & Contrast, etc ... the bug still exists.

                                                                                      Well, let's forget these secondary instruments and let us ask you something really important: if you could fix this bug for some of these tools/effects, why don't you do the same for very important plugins like Colorista II / Magic Bullet Looks or Twixtor? Do you know how many people use these plugins? Because if you put on a video one of these plugins, the luminance and the chrominance of the video are affected, and all this without changing any parameter of the effect/pligin, just applied.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      So please Steve, if you repair a bug, fix it until the end, not only for just a part of these tools/plugins. If this has not been done in the version 6.0.2, at least fix it in the next 6.0.4. Thanks in advance.