36 Replies Latest reply on Jul 20, 2012 6:29 AM by station_two

    Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate

    Noel Carboni Level 8

      Is it just me, or do other forum regulars here get the feeling that there are more basic problems with Photoshop CS6 being reported by people using the Mac platform than those with PC?

       

      I would have thought that if anything, since the Mac platform has fewer different configurations and Apple vets the drivers that there should be fewer problems reported involving the Mac.

       

      The Mac and PC forums weren't combined when Photoshop CS5 was released, so it's hard to compare to anything historical.

       

      Just seems a bit odd to me.  About the only thing I can think to explain it might be that since Apple has to check the drivers it's just taking longer for good, Photoshop CS6-compatible drivers to come out.  And I guess there are no driver updates coming out as part of OS updates for other than the latest Lion system, right?

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
          Curt Y Level 7

          It is difficult for a non-Mac user to keep track of all the animal OS out there.  It does appear from what I read there are still a lot of conflicts between Lion? and PS.

           

          The King is dead and so goes the kingdom?

          • 2. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
            Bo LeBeau Level 4

            I've been reading these fora for years in both the Windows and Mac discussions, and I haven't been keeping track, but I haven't noticed an increase in Mac issues with Photoshop CS6. (don't yet have it myself) Of course, whenever Adobe releases a new version of Creative Suite practically every forum has an explosion of people complaining about this or that.

             

            Now, there has been a problem with InDesign CS6 and Mac OS 10.7.4 that Adobe finally acknowledged just a few days ago. This is most common with 2012 Macbooks but the issue hasn't been confined to these models only (just more apparent).

             

            One thing that seems to cause people issues on both platforms is Open GL problems.

            Noel, you've been very good with directing people to make sure they have updated drivers.

             

            While these issues can occur on both Mac & Windows, it seems that there are more people on Windows writing in with video driver problems that Mac people. I attribute this simply to the fact that Windows boxes can come from a wide variety of manufacturers with differing levels of hardware and quality.

             

            Is there anything that you can point to specifically or is it just a feeling? I myself haven't updated to Lion because I just have the feeling that there are less issues with Creative Suite by staying with Snow Leopard.

             

            Maybe the upcoming Mountain Lion will smooth a few rough edges of Lion, just as Snow Leopard smoothed a few things in Leopard.

            • 3. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
              charles badland Level 4

              CS6 has not been released for that long. And it coincided with a release of a new Mac OS (Lion) and the new retina display MacbookPro. If Noel is truly curious, it would not take long to quantify which posts in this forum are Mac specific. Plus take into account the many PS users switching from PC to Mac, so a number of posts may just be dealing with a different UI. (Help!!!! I open Photoshop and I can see my WHOLE desktop!)

              Specific examples and quantifiable info may help in soliciting feedback.

              • 4. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                Level 5

                What possible other purpose can one attribute to this thread other than precisely the triggering of the Mac v. Windows debate that the thread title claims to disavow?  

                • 5. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                  Level 5

                  One comment that I do feel compelled to make is that there is no question in my mind that I do avoid reading threads when it's obvious that they're Windows-centric, even if I occasionally participate in a few of those, so that in itself automatically prevents or disqualifies me from expressing a meaningful opinion from answering Noel's question.

                   

                  I wonder if anyone can be truly free of bias in this regard. 

                  • 6. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                    Not at all, station_two. I'm a little surprised you'd accuse me of that...  I think it's pretty plain from my posts that I'm interested in helping folks with both platforms, though my knowledge of the Mac is more limited.

                     

                    Bo, I'm really just curious, and it's really no more than a feeling at this point. It's certainly not a grand majority of one over the other, if a majority at all.  I admit that I may just be subjectively taking more notice of the Mac posts out of a desire to learn.  A lot of my way of dealing with things is out of insight as well as analysis.  I happen to be good at "seeing" problem solutions in an intuitive way, and I have just been getting a growing feeling that the Mac build wasn't tested by Adobe as thoroughly or something.

                     

                    I've been thinking about how best to discuss this for a while without turning it hostile, and I really, REALLY don't want that to happen here. So please let's not feed that monster.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                      Level 5

                      charles badland wrote:

                       

                      …it coincided with a release of a new Mac OS (Lion)…

                       

                      LOL !     The demise of that abomination of an OS is imminent, as its successor, the even worse Mountain Lion is about to be released.

                       

                      Apple is moving with hastened strides in the direction of making its OS more attuned with mobile devices like the iPad, MacAir and iPhone, to the point that seasoned Apple observers and Mac fanatics now question the viability of the desktop Mac as a serious computing platform in just a few short years.

                      • 8. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                        Level 5

                        Noel,

                         

                        I am not ascribing malicious motives to your starting this debate, just read my feelings on the future of the desktop Mac platform in one of my previous posts.

                        • 9. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                          Opinionated much, station_two? 

                           

                          Don't worry, Microsoft is working on Windows 8 to match Apple's bold move into toy operating systems.  If I hear the word "reimagined" one more time, I think I'll shoot.

                           

                          In all seriousness, anyone involved in software development has to be watching these moves with great interest, because they're going to define what the future software markets - and even software development environments - are like.

                           

                          -Noel

                          • 10. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                            Level 5

                            Opinionated?  Sure, always. 

                            • 11. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                              charles badland wrote:


                              ...it would not take long to quantify...

                               

                              Perhaps I'll do some quick stats, but counting Mac vs. PC posts isn't so terribly interesting to me that I plan to spend time on it, one thing I can offer is that back when the forums were completely separated, there seemed to be a pretty similar level of activity on both - though even then I might have to give the edge to the Mac forum because I can remember seeing that the first page of posts ended at a more recent time than the PC forum a fair number of times.  It could be that Mac users seek forum help a bit more often than PC users seek it, for whatever reason.

                               

                              FYI, again without hard data to back it up but just human memory of the past 4 months of Photoshop CS6 discussions, I can't recall an issue that seemed like a bona fide Photoshop problem (ignoring OpenGL et. al. integration) that was experienced on a PC that wasn't experienced on a Mac, but I seem to recall spme that were the other way (e.g., saving files on a network device failing and losing user files).  It's stuff like that that makes me feel Adobe didn't test it as thoroughly, or maybe an engineer more knowledgeable about PC coded the changes then ported it to Mac.

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 12. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                Level 5

                                Getting back to your OP, I can tell you that I've been meaning to ask of JJMac, prominent Windows user, if he or anyone else has compiled a list of the many bugs he found that moved him to give up on CS altogether.

                                 

                                As a Mac user, I haven't personally run into any CS6 bugs or issues under Snow Leopard 10.6.8 to the point that I have trouble remembering exactly what other Mac users have complained about, though I am aware that some, mostly Lion users, have indeed experienced grief of some kind.

                                • 13. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                  Level 5

                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                   

                                  …(e.g., saving files on a network device failing and losing user files)…

                                   

                                  Oh, that has nothing to do with CS6, Noel.  It's been nothing new for a bunch of Photoshop versions.

                                  • 14. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                                    That's just it - everyone uses Photoshop differently, so one man's "perfectly acceptable quality" can be another's "I can't use this POS".  I'm with you - the thing seems rock solid for what I need it for.

                                     

                                    I do remember more PC users being able to resolve the problems they were seeing with GPU acceleration by being able to mix and match driver versions, where Mac folks in the same boat in some cases just had to come to grips with waiting for another OS update with better drivers.  Notably folks on both sides of the fence have been able to resolve most GPU issues with changes to the Photoshop graphics processor settings (e.g., changing to "Basic" or in extreme cases disabling GPU use entirely).

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                      Level 5

                                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                                       

                                      charles badland wrote:


                                      ...it would not take long to quantify...

                                       

                                      …without hard data to back it up but just human memory of the past 4 months of Photoshop CS6 discussions, I can't recall an issue that seemed like a bona fide Photoshop problem (ignoring OpenGL et. al. integration) that was experienced on a PC that wasn't experienced on a Mac…

                                       

                                      The problems with video drivers under Windows seem to outnumber those on the Mac like twenty to one! 

                                      • 16. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                        Level 5

                                        station_two wrote:

                                         

                                        …The problems with video drivers under Windows seem to outnumber those on the Mac like twenty to one! 

                                         

                                        …and that's from the perspective of someone who skips a very large percentage of Windows-centric threads. 

                                        • 17. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                          station_two wrote:

                                           

                                          ...if he or anyone else has compiled a list of the many bugs he found that moved him to give up on CS altogether.

                                           

                                          Ones I can think of off the top of my head that about that might cause people to swear off Ps CS6 until an update fixes them:

                                           

                                          1.  Something causes corruption of text in documents, making it un-editable in a future session (that would be maddening).  New for CS6, reported by some Mac users initially, but as I recall also being verified on PCs too.

                                           

                                          2.  The actions playback engine not playing actions compatibly with older versions because of implementation errors (like choosing the CS6 method instead of the Legacy setting for actions that are not recorded with the method selector).

                                           

                                          3.  Some bugs reported in prior versions that still haven't been fixed (e.g., Help popping up spontaneously comes to mind, and that business where the "Clip Layer" setting in the Properties panel affects how actions executed, which I know bothers JJ).

                                           

                                          4.  Excessive sluggishness problems (that's one I don't recall hearing much if at all from PC users).

                                           

                                          5.  Keyboard shortcut problems (seem like more Mac users having these, though some PC users have them too).

                                           

                                          6.  Insoluble problems with GPU operations.  These seem to be reported across the board, but more PC users seem to resolve them right away by futzing with drivers.

                                           

                                          There are probably others we know about and I'm just not thinking about right now.

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                            Noel Carboni Level 8

                                            Unlike you I don't skip threads by users of the "other" kind of systems.

                                             

                                            -Noel

                                            • 19. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                              Level 5

                                              Noel Carboni wrote:

                                               

                                              …remember more PC users being able to resolve the problems they were seeing with GPU acceleration by being able to mix and match driver versions, where Mac folks in the same boat in some cases just had to come to grips with waiting for another OS update with better drivers…

                                               

                                               

                                              Apple has never been much interested in updating video drivers.  However, Apple has been very discriminating and stingy with regards to which video cards they will support.

                                               

                                              Hence the expensive aftermarket for mutant, flashed cards for the Mac. 

                                              • 20. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                Level 5

                                                Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                 

                                                Unlike you I don't skip threads by users of the "other" kind of systems…

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Ah, but I take it you haven't experienced the trauma of having been forced for fifteen years to use an operating system you despised while serving Uncle Sam. 

                                                • 21. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                  I always figured the GPU choices were more limited because likely more PCs than Macs are used to play video games, and so the GPU development resources at ATI, nVidia, Intel have been focused more on where the money is.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                    station_two wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Ah, but I take it you haven't experienced the trauma of having been forced for fifteen years to use an operating system you despised while serving Uncle Sam. 

                                                     

                                                    I find it hard to "despise" anything to do with computers.  I take more of a "find ways to make it sing for its supper" approach.

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 23. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                      Level 5

                                                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                       

                                                      …Ones I can think of off the top of my head that about that might cause people to swear off Ps CS6 until an update fixes them:

                                                       

                                                      1.   through 6…

                                                       

                                                      Never experienced any of those on any of my Macs with any version of Photoshop, from 5.x through 13.x

                                                      • 24. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                        Level 5

                                                        Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                         

                                                        I always figured the GPU choices were more limited because likely more PCs than Macs are used to play video games…

                                                         

                                                        That is true.

                                                        • 25. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                          charles badland Level 4

                                                          What possible other purpose can one attribute to this thread other than precisely the triggering of the Mac v. Windows debate that the thread title claims to disavow?  

                                                          My thoughts exactly.

                                                          I think Noel was just bored!

                                                          • 26. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                            Level 5

                                                            Thinking back, I've never, ever played a computer game of any kind.

                                                            • 27. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                              station_two wrote:

                                                               

                                                              Never experienced any of those on any of my Macs with any version of Photoshop, from 5.x through 13.x

                                                               

                                                              Not really relevant.  I'm speaking (throughout this thread) of observations of problems reported on the forum.

                                                               

                                                              I have seen item 2 myself, and you would too if you tested for it.  I have seen GPU problems (6) and resolved them by using a specific driver (ATI's latest at the moment).

                                                               

                                                              Just because you and I don't see them doesn't mean they're not problems (see post 14).

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 28. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                Level 5

                                                                charles badland wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                What possible other purpose can one attribute to this thread other than precisely the triggering of the Mac v. Windows debate that the thread title claims to disavow?  

                                                                My thoughts exactly.

                                                                I think Noel was just bored!

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                LOL !  I guess if I hadn't been bored myself I wouldn't have responded either! 

                                                                • 29. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                  charles badland wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  I think Noel was just bored!

                                                                   

                                                                  Possibly.  There's no denying that advising people to "check for a driver update" or "turn off the Application Frame" gets a bit stuffy.  My mind craves finding patterns in things.

                                                                   

                                                                  Maybe we need a raw-to-finished photo processing challenge or something.

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 30. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                    charles badland Level 4

                                                                    Apple is moving with hastened strides in the direction of making its OS more attuned with mobile devices like the iPad, MacAir and iPhone, to the point that seasoned Apple observers and Mac fanatics now question the viability of the desktop Mac as a serious computing platform in just a few short years.

                                                                    Yeah. Apple is going a bad direction. Adobe as well.

                                                                    What are we former fans to do?

                                                                    • 31. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                      charles badland Level 4

                                                                      A lot of responses from a half-a-handful of forum members.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                        Level 5

                                                                        charles badland wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        …Yeah. Apple is going a bad direction. Adobe as well.

                                                                         

                                                                        What are we former fans to do?

                                                                         

                                                                        Well, I know what I am going to do:  keep on using the software and hardware that works the way I like it and want it to work, not the way the corporate marketers want to impose on me.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                          acresofgreen Level 4

                                                                          I do have that feeling, but I can't back it up with any numbers. I'm not curious enough to make a tally. Subjectively I have the feeling that there are a lot of Lion and Retina display related Apple posts and a lot of driver problems and rights management problems from Windows users, but I could be wrong.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                            JJMack Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            station_two wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            Getting back to your OP, I can tell you that I've been meaning to ask of JJMac, prominent Windows user, if he or anyone else has compiled a list of the many bugs he found that moved him to give up on CS altogether.

                                                                             

                                                                            I have not given up on CS6 or Adobe.  I have stopped using CS6 and hope Adobe will realize their cash cow is having problems.  Photoshop for me is a playpen I like to mess around in. Been playing for years at work I started with Photoshop version 3  PC and Mac then moved onto PS5 then PS5.5 Around 2002 I was planning on retiring though I wasn't doing much with Photoshop at work what I did do I found enjoyable.  So I bought an upgrade to PS7 and a Laptop to play with when I retired.  In 2003 I did stop working for the man.  I started using more and more features in Photoshop.  In that time frame Adobe made a download for Photoshop that Provided a new feature Photoshop Scripting.  I had been playing with actions now I had something more powerful to play with.  I upgraded my cameras in the CS time frame and start using ACR. ACR is the main reason I upgraded to CS2 and CS3. I Saw no reason to upgrade to CS4.  However some were complaining that add on I made for Photoshop were failing. By CS5 time I saw some improvements I want in ACR so I upgraded to CS5 found Adobe have made changes to Scripting support so I fixed my scripts.  This while a pain there are differences in scripting support and one need to address what release a script is working in and may have to program around a bug or the lack of a scripting feature.  Adobe also removed a GUI I used in actions in Photoshop and introduced a bug into the Action Player.  I updated my actions the used the removed UI and reported the Action Player bug to Adobe which accepted as a bug and not fixed.  Adobe Photoshop CS4 and CS5 have problems that can effect actions bad news.  Adobe support told me the Action Player problem I report was not in CS6 so I sprang for it.  Adobe support was wrong the bug it still there that have also add additional Action Player, Action Recorder, Scripting bugs and a nasty bug the effect users the do not like to edit in tabbed Windows.  CS6 has many bugs when it come to Photoshop automation.  Even Adobe own script "Load Files into Stack" and "Save Layer to Files"  fail if user un check open document into tabbed windows in their Photoshop preferences.  If you have not encountered Bugs in CS6 your only using fraction of Photoshop for there are many bugs in CS6 both PC and Mac.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                              Level 5

                                                                              JJMack wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              …If you have not encountered Bugs in CS6 your only using fraction of Photoshop for there are many bugs in CS6 both PC and Mac.

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              That is, of course, a possibility.  All I'm saying is that I personally have not run into any bugs.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Not Intended to be a Mac vs. PC Debate
                                                                                Level 5

                                                                                I would like to thank you separately for taking the time and effort to compile that list of bugs.  Much appreciated.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Like you, I've been upgrading Photoshop for the last several versions strictly—or at least primarily—on the strength of the successive improvements in ACR.  Unlike your situation, my use of actions in Photoshop is minimal, and my use of scripting non-existent.