1 2 Previous Next 55 Replies Latest reply on Mar 28, 2013 3:43 PM by areohbee

    PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)

    areohbee Level 5

      Most of the time, PV2012 allows one to preserve more detail in the highlights. However sometimes, in the brightest highlights, tonal detail is lost by PV2012.

       

      I haven't figured out which-all conditions result in this phenomenon, but when it occurs, the detail is lost forever. i.e. no amount of finessing  of highlights, exposure, and/or whites will bring it back (nor tone/point curve). It's like PV2012 is mixing tones recovered via auto highlight-recovery with pre-existing tones in the same range, or something, and the detail is essentially permanently muddled. That arm-chair analysis may be totally off, but I've seen the phenomemon enough times now that I can no longer ignore it.

       

      I'm leaning toward the term "white mud".

       

      Rob

        • 2. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
          Vit Novak Level 3

          Yes, some example will be fine

           

          As far as I found out, new feature of PV2012 is automatic compression of highlights so that all channels are in range 0..1 after whitebalancing during workflow. In PV2010/03, R and B highlights were truncated is that case, which resulted in some loss of details or higher amount of hue shift. Amount of compression depends on how much highlights there are, so in case of photo with no highlights, there is no compression and PV2012 works the same way as PV2010/03

           

          However, this compression results in lowering the contrast in highlights, so in some cases, there can be less details in highlights. This can be partially corrected with whites control, but there is no setting of whites slider that would totally emulate PV2010/03 - this was already answered by Eric

           

          Of course, it's possible that algorithm is misbehaving sometimes - but so far I didn't notice that, although in some (rare) cases highlights look visually better with PV2010/03, because they are not compressed. But generally, I find PV2012 much better in that regard

          • 3. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
            Noel Carboni Level 7

            Rob Cole wrote:

             

            sometimes, in the brightest highlights, tonal detail is lost by PV2012.

             

            Are you speaking relatively, compared to some other conversion software or PV version, or just in an absolute sense?

             

            If the latter, it occurs to me to point out that there certainly comes a point where the image is completely overexposed and all the camera's photosites are maxed-out.  In that case, we would expect a complete loss of tonality / detail.

             

            Is the issue that you expect such complete overexposure to stay pure white during a conversion no matter what settings you dial in?

             

            I'm not criticizing, just trying to fully understand your point of view and question.

             

            -Noel

            • 4. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
              areohbee Level 5

              PV2012 compresses the (non-overblown) whites (brightest highlights) sometimes, compared to previous process versions (e.g. 2010).I assume all scrutinizing PV2012 users have seen this on at least a few photos - it doesn't always happen, but happens fairly often..

               

              Here's a cut from the brightest white part of the peddle of a white flower.

               

               

              PV2010 - image crop (sRGB):

              NIK3_30355.(PV2010).jpg

               

              PV2010 - right quadrant of histogram:

              WhiteMud_Histogram_PV2010.gif

               

              PV2012 - image crop (sRGB):

              NIK3_30355.(PV2012).jpg

               

              PV2012 - right quadrant of histogram:

              WhiteMud_Histogram_PV2012.gif

               

              Notice:

              * more tonal detail in PV2010 image crop, and whites in histogram are more spread out.

              * less tonal detail in PV2012 image crop, and whites in histogram are more compressed.

               

              These are at default settings - no editing yet.

               

              Rob

              • 5. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                Vit Novak Level 3

                Yes, this is expected behavior. And as I can see, some details that are blown in PV2010 crop are not blown in PV2012 crop, so PV2012 is actually showing more detail, but with less contrast

                 

                Here are those images with strong level correction (range 220-235 expanded into 0-255), with PV2010 on the top, to show the amount of detail

                 

                PV2010-12-curve2.jpg

                 

                As a side note, exposure slider functionality seems to be also changed in similar manner - it has 'soft' cutoff

                1 person found this helpful
                • 6. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                  areohbee Level 5

                  Hi Vit,

                   

                  Thanks for showing the level-corrected whites. Although they look blue instead of white, it does clearly show the "problem" - loss of intra-whites contrast.

                   

                  Vit Novak wrote:

                   

                  Yes, this is expected behavior. And as I can see, some details that are blown in PV2010 crop are not blown in PV2012 crop, so PV2012 is actually showing more detail, but with less contrast

                   

                  Yes, in the PV2010 version there are a few blown pixels, and in the PV2012 version, there are none, but the price that is being paid to preserve & integrate those few pixels is too high: it's wrecking the rest of the non-blown whites: turning them into mud... - on many photos: me no like.

                   

                  Bottom line: White flowers, white clouds, white water-falls, (I don't do wedding photos, but I would guess white wedding dresses too sometimes), ... - often have a very apparent loss of intra-whites contrast when using PV2012 that is a bummer, in my opinion.

                   

                  I wonder what it would take to edit the actual raw data in the raw file itself, to down-shift the top-most pixels or something if they are leading to sub-optimal whites tone (e.g. D300 NEF). I realize this would "void the warranty", but if it would solve the problem...

                   

                  Rob

                  • 7. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                    Vit Novak Level 3

                    Yes, I understand what you mean. I just wanted to make sure are you are talking about real loss of detail, which would mean some error in the code that would be potentially solved in next release or so, or you are not satisfied with additional compression of the highlights (they are already compressed by the tone curve in the profile), which means that we will have to wait until PV2014 or so for possible change of workflow ...

                     

                    I prepared some further examples. PV2010 is on the left side, PV2012 on the right side. Photos were taken with various Canon compacts and DSLR-s (last one provided by Noel). In all cases, all controls were at default, but it was not possible to get much better result even using various sliders and local adjustments. I used my v4 camera profiles calibrated for sRGB color space + Adobe standard added in the last example

                     

                    On the first example, there is a loss of contrast in central part of the crop with PV2012, caused by big white vehicle that was at the parking place at the bottom of the photo, blown by the sun, so all highlights were compressed. PV2010 crop looks better, because there are no blown parts there (or maybe a pixel or two) and I don't care about the vehicle that was there just because I took the photo from the parking place below the mountain. By raising the whites slider, it's possible to decrease the amount of highlight compression (it was also suggested by Eric), but I can't get the same look as with PV2010

                     

                    Image1.jpg

                     

                    On the second example in the Blue cave (daylight coming under the water surface), it's hard to actually tell which PV is better. PV2012 has more or less correct hues but is visually a bit too dark, while PV2010 has considerable hue shift of blue color towards cyan.

                     

                    Image2.jpg

                     

                    It's actually not a magic of PV2012, but caused by higher sensitivity of green than red and blue pixels on the sensor. In old workflow, blown red-green colors had hue 60, while blown blue colors had hue 180, due to clamping R and B channel after whitebalancing. Now, when clamping is substituted with compression of all channels, it's about 40 for red-green range and 190-200 for blue, so blown sky and other colors in blue range look visually better - no more blown cyan areas. Also, blown skin, red flowers etc also look visually better, because they don't become too yellow. Unfortunately, blown green doesn't, which is illustrated on the third example. Look the blown parts of guy's T-shirt. With PV2010 it's yellow (hue 60), which looks acceptable. On PV2012 it's brown (hue around 40) - not very good. Similar with foliage etc. I already mentioned this issue in one post, but I'm not sure someone from Adobe noticed, so maybe this example will be more convincing

                     

                    Image3.jpg

                     

                    On the fourth example with the sun, with PV2012 there is no strange banding as in PV2010, but whole picture looks more orange due to the reason I explained above, so again hard to tell which one is better

                     

                    Image4.jpg

                    On the last example, PV2012 with v4 camera profile (top picture) also avoided banding around the blue spotlight on the concert, present with PV2010, hue is closer to blue, so PV2012 clearly wins. But PV2012 performed even worse with Adobe standard  profile than PV2010 (bottom picture) - there is less hue shift towards cyan, but banding much worse. And PV2012 + Adobe standard was worse than PV2010 + camera profile. It's because camera profiles are, among others, tuned to partially correct nasties caused by blown channels, while adobe standard profiles don't have this 'improvements' + Adobe standard profiles are v1 type ...

                     

                    Image5camera.jpg

                     

                    Image5adobe.jpg

                     

                    So, regarding dealing with highlights, PV2012 is a mixed bag. When I started testing ACR 7, I was quite satisfied, but now, it's visible there are also some drawbacks compared to PV2010

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 8. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                      areohbee Level 5

                      Hi Vit. Thanks again - I think we are on the same wave-length here...

                       

                      Vit Novak wrote:

                       

                      So, regarding dealing with highlights, PV2012 is a mixed bag. When I started testing ACR 7, I was quite satisfied, but now, it's visible there are also some drawbacks compared to PV2010

                       

                      In general, PV2012 white hues are more true, whether or not they are more pleasing. And to some extent, the white hues can be altered by bending the RGB channel curves in the upper-right corner (and/or shifting the hues and saturations in the camera calibration section, or choosing a different profile...).

                       

                      (the intent of this thread was to point out an aspect of the design/implementation, not to raise the possibility of a bug)

                       

                      In my opinion - in many cases, it would be preferable to preserve intra-whites contrast, even if at the expense of a few relatively unimportant pixels at the tippy top. The existing ACR controls are not even close to refined enough to spread the overly-compressed whites back out, once it happens.

                       

                      Rob

                      • 9. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                        I remember that blue spotlight.    And what a great 40D profile that discussion led to (I use it to this day exclusively).  Thank you again for that, Vit.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 10. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                          Jeff Schewe Level 5

                          Vit Novak wrote:

                           

                          So, regarding dealing with highlights, PV2012 is a mixed bag. When I started testing ACR 7, I was quite satisfied, but now, it's visible there are also some drawbacks compared to PV2010

                           

                          Which is why PV 2010 is still available...for those rare situations where PV 2012 isn't optimal.

                           

                          Not sure what the expectations re PV 2012 is, but everything mentioned in this thread is to be expected...

                          • 11. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                            areohbee Level 5

                            I hope Adobe will incorporate our feedback in the next round of improvements to the processing algorithms and controls...

                            • 12. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                              Vit Novak Level 3

                              Jeff Schewe wrote:

                               

                              Not sure what the expectations re PV 2012 is, but everything mentioned in this thread is to be expected...

                               

                              Yes, I stated several times that it was expected and PV2012 is definitively technically superior

                              • 13. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                Rob, I think that tampering with raw files that you mentioned, as a kind of temporary "fix" for the problem of highlights looking a bit dull compared to PV2010, doesn't make much sense, although it would be possible (but not as a general solution, because it depends on white balance that you set in ACR)

                                 

                                Another "fix" would be modifying the profile, so I just made an experimental one for D300 (after some quick testing on my cameras), so you can try if you want. This also isn't an universal solution, because amount of highlight compression depends on amount of highlights, so it will blow highlights more or less than PV2010/03

                                 

                                It is done by simply modifying the tone curve of Camera Standard v4 from Adobe. That way, hues are preserved, but highlights are expanded back by raising the top half of the curve in different way than with whites slider (which is actually unknown to me)

                                 

                                http://netload.in/dateixyiaHqHaul/Nikon D300 - Nikon D300 CSv4T1.zip.htm

                                 

                                Hope link will work - sites I used so far for sharing files are dead, so this is the first one I found.

                                • 14. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                  areohbee Level 5

                                  Vit,

                                   

                                  Wow. I'm blown away. You continue to be my hero, profile-wise anyway... . I've only tested on a couple of shots so far, but it does seem to fluff those whites back out nicely. I'm assuming you did not create this profile using DPE.

                                   

                                  I don't normally use Camera Standard, but that may change...

                                   

                                  Official Feature Request

                                   

                                  Thank you so much,

                                  Rob

                                  • 15. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                    areohbee Level 5

                                    Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                     

                                    Which is why PV 2010 is still available...

                                     

                                    So I guess if "PV2014" is better than PV2012 in most ways, but not in all ways, we shouldn't "complain" about that either, since PV2012 will still be available...

                                     

                                    PS - Overly compressed whites is not so "rare". If it were that rare, I probably wouldn't have even bothered with this thread. There are some aspects of PV2003 that are preferrable in some circumstances too, but they are truly rare and hardly worth talking about at this point.

                                     

                                    In my opinion, Adobe should simply release new profiles, even if only in the lab, like Vit's, pronto, and then make sure PV2014 (or whatever is next) has enough control built in...

                                     

                                    Rob

                                    • 16. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                      He's a lot of folks' hero I think. 

                                       

                                      Vit possesses that perfect balance of technical prowess and art awareness (i.e., he knows what should be in a good image and he knows how to get it).

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 17. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                        Vit Novak Level 3

                                        There is actually nothing special with this profile. Here is the difference between original v4 profile and this one:

                                         

                                        Image1.jpg

                                         

                                        As you can see, I just raised and clipped off upper part of the tone curve in the profile (single line from bottom left to top right), to undo compression of more input dynamic range into output color space. In some cases it will produce visually better result, in some cases worse, depending on the photo. Producing new profiles like this one isn't universal solution, because amount of compression in PV2012 depends on amount of highlights, while tone curve in the profile is fixed. However, I believe that shape of curve that is compressing highlights in PV2012 and functionality of whites slider could be tuned a bit differently. But it requires testing the PV on huge number of real life photos so I don't think it will happen before PV2014 or so

                                         

                                        What I don't like in PV2012 is that, when Adobe finally made better emulation od camera rendering using camera profiles, at the same time highlights are different, so result is again different than from camera even with perfect camera profile, unless there are no blown channels in the raw file, which is rare on my photos, because most landscape photos have large dynamic range.

                                        • 18. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                          areohbee Level 5

                                          Yeah Vit, I've been able to get some OK results too simply by creating a sharp upward (contrast increasing) inflection in the whites using the point curve in ACR, and then boosting contrast using the sliders to make up for the inevitable contrast lost in the remaining tones when doing such to the brightest tones using the curve. Tricky business though - I'd love if Adobe could come up with a simpler solution for us.

                                           

                                          Did you do the tone curve in the profile using DPE, or your special software? Would it matter??

                                           

                                          Thanks again,

                                          Rob

                                          • 19. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                            Vit Novak Level 3

                                            I modified a profile with short program that consist of loading profile, changing tone curve points and saving the profile into another file. Code for manipulating with profiles is public available as dng sdk, but because it's written in c++ and I'm used to program in Delphi, and also because it is very large and complex, I written my own routines for most things. However, new additions in dng workflow (v4 profiles, PV2012) are not documented yet - new dng sdk still isn't available.

                                             

                                            I didn't use DPE for years

                                             

                                            Another solution, which I think is actually most usable here, is, as you suggested, creating some custom curves in ACR. After some experimenting, I ended up with this curve, which returns similar result as modification of profile (without a need to use other sliders). I just added a soft rolloff at the top

                                             

                                            High2.gif

                                             

                                            Points are (part of xml file):

                                             

                                               <crs:ToneCurve>

                                                <rdf:Seq>

                                                 <rdf:li>0, 0</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>160, 160</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>175, 175</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>180, 180</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>241, 248</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>243, 250</rdf:li>

                                                 <rdf:li>255, 255</rdf:li>

                                                </rdf:Seq>

                                               </crs:ToneCurve>

                                             

                                            Unfortunately, whites slider works somewhat differently. If moved to  +10 or +20, it will also raise highlights, but results were not good (the uppest highlights looked blown, the rest still a bit dull), so it's useless for me.

                                            • 20. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                                              I do hope the Adobe techies are listening intently.  This discussion has reached a higher "brightness" level than most ("why can't I open the images from my new camera"). 

                                               

                                              This represents another way a future Camera Raw update or version can make even better looking imagery - to improve the appearance of detail rendered in highlights.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              1 person found this helpful
                                              • 21. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                areohbee Level 5

                                                Vit's example of the white mountain crop being affected by a white vehicle in the parking lot (outside the crop) brings up another facet of this business: All image adaptations and handling are governed by the whole picture, even when cropped out. So, bonus idea:

                                                 

                                                The ability to re-evaluate image based on cropped area (useful not only for improving intra-whites contrast, but also blacks, auto-tone, ... ).

                                                 

                                                Here's another idea: since locals are applied before globals, the ability to re-evaluate image after locals are applied. That way one could rub down the over-blown areas within the crop, then have the globals act as desired. That way, if the white vehicle was included inside the crop (and it was "rubbed down"), one could still have snow tone as desired via global settings.

                                                 

                                                Rob

                                                • 22. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                  areohbee Level 5

                                                  Hi Vit, - thanks for the explanation. I'll have to look more into the dng sdk.

                                                   

                                                  I've been coming at this from a slightly different angle. - instead of upping the whites with a soft roll-off, I have been dropping all tones progressively from left to right until the very end, where a sharp upward inflection lifts the whites with no roll-off, for example:

                                                   

                                                  _intra-whites_contrast_enhancing_tone_curve.gif

                                                   

                                                  This tone curve may need to be accompanied by things such as:

                                                  * +exposure: a fair amount to re-brighten

                                                  * -blacks: to compensate for increased exposure...

                                                  * +contrast: a little to make up for decreased midtone contrast

                                                  * +whites: to try and pull the whites a little more from the right.

                                                  * -highlights: to pull back on the whites from the left (and compensate for increased exposure & contrast).

                                                  * +shadows: to match -highlights (and compensate for increased contrast and reduced blacks).

                                                   

                                                  Note: there may be a slight reduction in intra-highlight contrast (below whites) as a trade-off. If not desirable, try -contrast and/or -highlights and/or -exposure...

                                                   

                                                  This formula has been rolled into a (mostly) relative preset, for those who access ACR through Lightroom:

                                                   

                                                  http://www.robcole.com/Rob/ProductsAndServices/CookmarksLrPlugin

                                                   

                                                  See photo adjustments - intra-whites contrast, under tone.

                                                   

                                                  Rob

                                                  • 23. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                                    Yes, it works similar way as my curve, with advantage that it won't compress near-blown highlights (or truncate them in case of curve used in that profile), but will efectively decrease the exposure of the photo, uncompressing highlights at the same time (and hues will be slightly different)

                                                     

                                                    However, if you correct exposure back by moving exposure slider to the right, you will apply another curve, that will compress highlights again

                                                    • 24. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                      areohbee Level 5

                                                      Yep - far from ideal... - very hard to enhance intra-whites contrast using the tone curve without losing contrast somewhere else. It would be better if the white tones were not so compressed in the first place. Still, with the help of the basics, I think the intra-whites contrast-enhancing tone curve is a worthwhile trade-off in some photos.

                                                      • 25. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                        Vit Novak Level 3

                                                        That fact is - Adobe team improved the workflow of ACR, so it is possible to extract almost 1 stop more from highlights than before, due to the fact that red and blue pixels have about half sensitivity of the green channel. So raw values from sensor are in range 0-1, but after whitebalancing green is stil in range 0-1, while red and blue are in range from 0 to almost 2 (depending on sensor and color temperature). With PV2010/03, this extra range of red and blue was simply thrown off. Now it is used and effective dynamic range is larger by almost 1 stop (except in green range where it's still the same). Since it must fit into the same output color space, something has to be compressed - it's unavoidable.

                                                         

                                                        Now, the question is how to do it. Besides the method used by PV2012, which retains compatibility with existing profiles, there seems to be at least one other method, used by Canon cameras and DPP before dng profiles even existed (Nikons didn't have this at that time, don't know about recent models), where this compression isn't automatic (for cameras that I have at least), but is controlled by the profile only for tones where red and greed can be above 1 after whitebalancing, so highlights are compressed only where needed. However, for implementation of this in ACR, another update of dng specification would be needed  and probably some other thing changed, so it was made this way I presume. I actually don't know various internals and new workflow isn't documented yet, so it's possible that some of my claims here are not entirely correct, but I'm quite familiar with it since I needed to know how it works to make some modifications in my program for generating camera profiles

                                                        • 26. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                          Vit Novak Level 3

                                                          Here is also one of my test images illustrating increased tonal range in PV2012, rendered by camera standard profile of Canon camera.

                                                          In PV2010/03, values of red and blue were truncated above the level of green (lowest "step" in the image)

                                                           

                                                          PV2012range.jpg

                                                          • 27. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                            areohbee Level 5

                                                            Vit,

                                                             

                                                            I don't understand all of that, but

                                                             

                                                            Vit Novak wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Since it must fit into the same output color space, something has to be compressed - it's unavoidable.

                                                            I get the impression that sometimes the mass of important white tones is sometimes being compressed as a result of a relatively few, less important tones extending away from the bulk of the whites.

                                                             

                                                            The aforementioned tones are not even shown in the ACR histogram, but they are there, and are causing a ganging up of the tones that are shown in the ACR histogram.

                                                             

                                                            It seems to me, that it would be better to comprise those relatively few "stray" pixels at the tippy top, somehow, instead of compressing the bulk of the whites next door.

                                                             

                                                            Rob

                                                            • 28. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                                              Rob Cole wrote:

                                                               

                                                               

                                                              It seems to me, that it would be better to comprise those relatively few "stray" pixels at the tippy top, somehow, instead of compressing the bulk of the whites next door.

                                                               

                                                              Rob

                                                               

                                                              Agree. My preference would be to slightly reshape the curve that is compressing the input range in PV2012. Now, highlights above level around 200 in sRGB  are being compressed (didn't check exact position and also, it may depend on amount of blown highlights), compared to PV2010/03 or in-camera rendering. I would move this point considerably higher, probably to 230-240 - that is what above point curve is doing. Checked two sets of landscape photos from last trips and it gave better results on almost all photos. Hues were still fine, top highlights can still be locally decompressed by the highlights slider which also somehow worked better, or brush/gradation tool. And also, sometimes PV2012 just left too much contrast in near-blown highlights, so that blown parts were more visible than with PV2010, even in case of camera profile and not Adobe standard that can produce really bad result as shown on Noel's photo etc.

                                                               

                                                              However, I don't think that current algorithm for this is bad, those differences are actually small and I'm sure that 90% of people wouldn't even notice any differences. Even I actually got used to it (after some disappointment on photos like my first example) and also, recently I'm watching most photos on plasma screen which has higher contrast ratio than LCD so I'm setting the exposure lower than before and so there are less highlights on my jpegs now

                                                               

                                                              Ok, I think that's all what I had to say without repeating myself several times, so let's hope that Adobe team will continue improving ACR this way or another

                                                              • 29. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                areohbee Level 5

                                                                Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                ...I think that's all what I had to say without repeating myself several times...

                                                                 

                                                                Perhaps we've beat on this subject enough then... .

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                ...let's hope that Adobe team will continue improving ACR this way or another.

                                                                 

                                                                That's all I'm sayin'... .

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Rob

                                                                • 30. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                  For what it's worth, I've struggled on occasion to bring highlight detail out in e.g., white bird feathers...

                                                                   

                                                                  WhitesNotEnhanced.jpg

                                                                   

                                                                  WhitesEnhanced.jpg

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 31. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                    areohbee Level 5

                                                                    Consider a curve which does not reduce midtone/highlight contrast so much.

                                                                     

                                                                    i.e. if the curve provides an upward inflection in the whites without being preceded by a downward inflection, then you may be able to get better tone all-around.

                                                                     

                                                                    For example, in this case, consider a tone curve more like the one I posted above (*** see note below). That way you can control shadow and mid tones using the basics, and rely on the tone curve only for the whites enhancement, with minimal loss of intra-highlight contrast. No?

                                                                     

                                                                    *** Note: My hunch is that this photo may do better with no roll-off at the tippy top. If that hunch is wrong, then consider a tone curve more like the one Vit posted above (with the roll-off at the tippy top).

                                                                     

                                                                    PS - You can also use a curve, like Vit's, but then raise all the way to "early" clipping instead of rolling off at the tippy top (more akin to the curve in the test profile he published, at the top end), depending on how it looks... And, if the whitemost color doesn't suit you, try bending the Red or Blue channel back a smidge too...

                                                                     

                                                                    Rob

                                                                    • 32. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                      I did all right with the curves shown, since I needed to reduce quite a bit of contrast between the parts lit by the evening sun and the shadows.  It was just an example of an image where more highlight tone detail is wanted.

                                                                       

                                                                      Here's the raw file...  If you'd like, you're welcome to fool with it.

                                                                       

                                                                      http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/IMG_1911.zip

                                                                       

                                                                      This was the embedded camera JPEG (showing the original exposure) vs. my result:

                                                                       

                                                                      SnowyEgretCameraJPEG.jpg

                                                                       

                                                                      SnowyEgretProcessed.jpg

                                                                       

                                                                      -Noel

                                                                      • 33. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                        Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                        Well, there is a big contrast between the bird and the rest of the picture, so I would say this picture is not a representative of average photo and some average solution, but requires some artistic approach, which is  up to photographer's taste, so it's not the topic we were talking about. Of course, 'average photo' is different for every photographer and I presume that average photo of Adobe team was different than mine or Rob's

                                                                         

                                                                        In this case, it seems that my taste is different than yours. I liked warm tone caused by the sun, so I wouldn't change it. I was just fine with highlights -20 to enhance the contrast on the bird and linear curve or even curve suggested by Rob. Curve that I suggested performed worse in this case, and  Whites slider also wasn't of help. PV2010 performed worse than PV2012. And another thing, Canon sRGB camera profile tends to oversaturate brown/orange highlights and raise the hue towards yellow (probably to make sunset photos looking "better") so they look like they are blown even when that part of raw isn't blown, which also happens here to some extent

                                                                        • 34. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                          areohbee Level 5

                                                                          Hi Noel,

                                                                           

                                                                          I took a stab at the raw - thanks.

                                                                           

                                                                          I see what you mean about the contrast/tone-curve. In this case, the optimum contrast reduction cross-over point is higher than what you'd get for standard contrast slider (over-dark parts of the bird are still higher than the cross-over point of the basic contrast slider, thus they are actually made darker by reducing contrast using the basic slider), so it's actually better to do it using the tone curve, as you've done.

                                                                           

                                                                          I tried processing this photo in PV2010 too, and to my surprise, in this case, it had the same problem as PV2012 - white tones ganging up (bunching up), whenever exposure or brightness bumped enough - and similarly, highlight recovery did not help much until extreme amount used - it just lowered the whole gang as a bunch, so to speak.

                                                                           

                                                                          This actually made me very happy, since I really don't see using PV2010 instead as a satisfying work-around.

                                                                           

                                                                          In this case, the results in the whites in PV2012, although different than PV2010, were no less pleasing, in my opinion. - but that's not always the case...

                                                                           

                                                                          And overall, the photo was better in PV2012... (hard to get it bright enough in PV2010 without blowing out the whites, or using extreme recovery, and/or adverse effects of large fill-light...).

                                                                           

                                                                          I guess the "take away" is that without the upward inflection in the whites, the whites are over-compressed and the bright feathers don't look as good, regardless of PV...

                                                                           

                                                                          Here's my whack:

                                                                           

                                                                          http://www.robcole.com/Rob/Personal/Pictures/LrForumSupport.cfm?embedSWF&openDir=WhiteMud& openFile=IMG_1911.jpg

                                                                           

                                                                          (hint: you may have to context-click to open in new tab or window - no idea why. Also, keep clicking next, or prev, to compare, instead of clicking next, prev, next, prev, ... - to take advantage of direction sensitive pre-loading)

                                                                           

                                                                          And my opinion: You did a better job than me at wringing out the detail in the birds feathers (I dunno if you used locals or what-not...), but I like the rest of the picture better in my version.

                                                                           

                                                                          Cheers,

                                                                          Rob

                                                                          • 35. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                            Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                            Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            And overall, the photo was better in PV2012... (hard to get it bright enough in PV2010 without blowing out the whites, or using extreme recovery, and/or adverse effects of large fill-light...).

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            The question is, why do you want the rest of the picture to be brighter

                                                                             

                                                                            I personally don't like HDR look on my photos at all. Some moderate boosting of shadows is fine by me so I can see them if they are really too dark, but no more than that

                                                                            • 36. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                              areohbee Level 5

                                                                              Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              ...why do you want the rest of the picture to be brighter...

                                                                               

                                                                              I was mostly just following Noel's lead. I can easily see more than one artistic interpretation for this photo.

                                                                               

                                                                              I like the bright n' punchy, cool n' green look for this photo, but I can also imagine a dark n' mysterious, warm n' red look too... - that's what virtual copies are for .

                                                                               

                                                                              Why don't you post your edit so we can see what you might have come up with.

                                                                               

                                                                              Rob

                                                                              • 37. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                                As we agree, there are various artistic interpretations. I generally tend to leave things as they aproximately looked like. So, as I said, I left everything at default, just moved highlights to about -20 and maybe used the curve that you suggested with slightly decreased upper midtones to get enough contrast on the bird. It looked beautiful to me (at least on the monitor in my office, which actually isn't calibrated). Nature is beautiful by itself, so I didn't feel a need of making other "enhancements". There is nothing wrong to make it your way or like Noel, just ask yourself, why do you need coold looking photo of a warm looking scene, with bright grass that wasn't very bright in reality, because the sun was low

                                                                                • 38. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                                  In my case my focus was on making the white bird look quite white.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  But the image is nothing special - the intent was more just to show a real image that illustrates issues in bringing out detail in bright areas.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Your result looks very nice, Rob.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  -Noel

                                                                                  • 39. Re: PV2012: White Mud (sometimes there is detail loss in brightest highlights)
                                                                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                                    Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    In my case my focus was on making the white bird look quite white.

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I understand that. I personally don't believe in theory about total adaptation of our eyes, so if I use a color picker on similar photos (which I don't do very often), I usually set WB somewhere in the middle between daylight and what was measured with color picker - in this case it was also close to what camera measured.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I would add another technical note about this photo. Actually, there is no blown pixels in raw nor prior nor after whitebalancing (if WB as shot used at least). So with v4 profile (which I also sent to Noel I think, because no v4 profiles for 40D from Adobe exist), PV2012 isn't additionally compressing highlights, compared to PV2010, so at default setting, result of both PVs is almost equal and almost equal to jpeg from camera. There are some minor differences in values of some pixels, but hard to notice any visual difference.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    But, it's not the case with v1 profiles (Adobe standard and original camera profiles). There are differences in both shadows (that are darker with PV2010) and highlights (that are more blown).

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