I've worked in ProRes422 and exported ProRes422
That may be the issue. PP can't "use previews" when going from a QuickTime preview to a QuickTime export, so you get the full render each time.
I'm not as concerned about working in, or exporting to quicktime. My main goal is to find what settings I need to work in so that when I'm done editing, I can quickly export a single clip that is a Master file that can then, at my leisure be converted to whatever format I need in Media Encoder.
Do you have any suggestions on what settings the scene should be or how to set the preview settings to achieve this? (working on a Mac)
Jim- "That may be the issue. PP can't "use previews" when going from a QuickTime preview to a QuickTime export, so you get the full render each time."
This statement is slightly misleading. If you change the Preview codec to match you export codec AND you have lots of effects on your clips, using Preview IS faster. If you spent the time rendering these clips that have effects, then when you export, PrP just rebuilds the frame to the final file. All your effects therefore are NOT rendered again. But this is really the only time using previews is an time saving process.
So you're saying that using ProRes previews and exporting to ProRes will now use the preview files for export? Aren't you the one who previously had an issue doing that?
The issue was...
I expected the preview files to be used in the same kind of Smart Rendering manner like FCP, where all the preview files are taken as chunks and "stitched" together. I was told by Adobe thats not how PrP work. Each frame is recomputed for output.
If you have Colorista on a clip and you render it. That time is well spent. Since when PrP exports it, it does recomputer the IMAGE of frame, but the effect has already been kind of "baked in" to that clip. So that process is done once uring rendering but NOT when exporting.
I expected the preview files to be used in the same kind of Smart Rendering manner like FCP, where all the preview files are taken as chunks and "stitched" together.
That's pretty much what happens when the preview format and the export format are the same, such as DV to DV.
I was told by Adobe thats not how PrP work.
I believe that comment only referred to using QuickTime formats, because like I said, when going form DV to DV, the export is nothing more than a file copy process. No rendering or transcoding is performed.
Its being employed on a limited bases at this point and ONLY with clips that have no effects on them..
Adobe - Premiere CS 6 - Enabled “smart rendering” and added Enable Smart Rendering Codec setting to the Video tab of the MXF OP1a exporters for XDCAM HD and XDCAM EX to enable or disable smart rendering for these formats. This option defaults to the off/disabled state. We’ll have more information about this feature in a post on this blog soon.
Its being employed on a limited bases at this point and ONLY with clips that have no effects on them..
No, it works perfectly fine for clips with effects on them as well, at least so long as you don't use QuickTime. I don't use QuickTime at all, so I can't test that option.
Smart Rendering is a whole different animal related to Long GOP media, and really has nothing to do with using preview files.
This is Wils response to my questions regarding Smart Rendering.
Wil (from Adobe) - " smart rendering is something that we've been asked a lot about, esp. lately by all the broadcasting partners we've been working with. Specifically, their interest lies in smart rendering from XDCAM HD sources, as they're all working with XDCAM 420 / 422 material (either camera captured OP1a MXF sources, or else material captured/ingested via Harmonic MediaDecks, Telestream, etc). Let's just say that we're very actively looking into what we can do here.
Keep in mind though that this isn't magic - the minute you apply any kind of effect (realtime or not) on an MPEG source, you nullify the ability to copy/paste/splice GOPs. Notwithstanding, smart rendering has a broad appeal to people in for instance news workflows, where the bulk of effects involve at best transitions between clips, so most of the edited material is 'naked'.
Jim, If you dont' use quicktime, what format are you using? I've tried XDCAM422 for the sequence, but the preview format gets grayed out to "I-Frame Only MPEG" so that it can't be set to the same settings as the main.
I'm still not sure what Sequence setting has an option that allows you to match the preview setting... just as long as it's 1920x1080 24fps
This is Wils response to my questions regarding Smart Rendering.
I've no quarrel with Wil's comments there, but again, Smart Rendering has to do with using Long GOP media, and is a separate issue to the one in this thread, about using preview files. If you create a preview file and wish to use that for export, then you are no longer accessing the original media and Smart Rendering becomes moot.
what format are you using?
For previews I generally use AVI with the UT codec.
If you're using MPEG previews, then you're better off not using those previews for export anyway, as doing so adds an unnecessary layer of compression to the chain.
Okay, I think I'm getting closer here, but still not getting to the end goal.
hmm... I don't see AVI or UT listed anywhere in the settings list or in the list of options for previews. And... does this setting enable you to export a full edit without a complete re-render every time? If So, what sequence settings are you using? What preview settings are you using? And what Export settings are you using?
Because I've tried about a dozen combinations so far, and every single time Premiere re-renders the entire edit from scratch. It seems like there is some razor-thin combination to use to achive what is essentially native in the workflow in FCP. I'm just trying to find what the settings are to enable that workflow.
When you create a new sequnce...
The UT codec was added separately by me. It's a free, lossless codec that won't add any degradation to the image, making it safe to use for previews.
Thanks, but it still doesn't work. Just made a sequence using the UT codec. Took a small portion of my edit (49 seconds) and added it to the new UT codec sequence.
Rendered the Colorista effects which took 5 minutes.
Export Media (use sequence settings checked).... it took 5 mintues to export
Export Media (use sequence settings, use previews) ... it took 5 minutes to export.
What do I need to do so that the export uses the already rendered previews and takes seconds. I can't fathom what someone working on a 30 minute edit would do if they had to change a single shot and wait 6 hours for a new master to process out.... ever single time. There has to be a procedure to do this otherwise Premiere is useless in a production environment. And obviously it's not... people are using it, but that means they've figured this one aspect out and it's not clearly documented.
I think is this case the slow down your are experienceing is with Colorista. I have had the same problem with that plug in. Just for grins. use the Premiere Pro 3 Way Color corrector and perform the same tests.
The 3-way color correct pretty much plays in real time to begin with, but I "rendered" the enitre 49 second test edit anyway to be say. It took 65 seconds.
Exporting... took about 65 seconds. So I'm still seeing the same thing. the effect is faster, but Premiere is still completely re-rendering the entire timeline everytime I export
Realistically, it shouldn't be a Colorista issue though... it shouldn't be any plugin issue. Once rendered, Premiere should ( I would hope) treat it as finished ready to go footage that is natively looking like the final effect and essentially ignore the original footage unless you add another effect or change an effect.
But it seems like render your clips are never used beyond temporary playback and never used to improve the workflow process
Am I getting a different result then everyone else... that when you export media it's a quick export... or is it the same as me and it re-render all of your effects and take longer to export the the actual real time playback (minimum) or MUCH longer if you have even basic effects?
What do I need to do so that the export uses the already rendered previews and takes seconds.
Well, for me all I have to do is check the box marked Use Previews.
Don't ever check Match Sequence Settings in the export dialog. It's just looking for trouble. Set them up manually, and when you do, report back what you set them to.
I'm still at a bit of a loss here. I've tried this under every combination of having sequcence settings matched, not matched, use previews checked and unchecked. I've tried ARRI, AVCHD, ProRes, XDCAM, every single combination causes premiere to completely re-render the entire edit when I "Export/Media".
I'm on a mac... is this a mac only thing? And it's just that Mac version of Premiere can't be used proffesionally? As an example if you have a 30 minute edit, and need to change a lower 3rd, and export out the change, it would take hours because the export would be re-rendering every graphic and effect for the entire show.... ever, single time. This is a huge barrier to using premiere in a work environment.
Well on my PC when I export the 30min programs I edit. It generally takes about 30-35 mins to export to 1920x1080i 29.97fps using VBR 2-Pass mpeg-2. My timelines have promos, bumps, voiceovers, Music, Lower-Thirds, Light CC and obviously shot footage. I never use the "use previews option either. My source footage is sometimes AVCHD if we do shoots in the field and but most of the time our footage from the studio is ProRes or BMD's MJPEG using the .avi container. So I'm wondering what specs your system has.
Here is my work edit stations specs. (Which aren't anything amazing at all)
Intel Core i7 2600k
Nvidia GTX 570
OS Drive (SSD Intel 510 elmcrest 120Gb)
RAID array 4x1TB 7200RPM (raid-5)
My source footage is sometimes AVCHD if we do shoots in the field and but most of the time our footage from the studio is ProRes or BMD's MJPEG using the .avi container.
Then I obviously have a export drive as well. But those are the specs from my system that matter. So I'm wondering also why it seems your perfomance is so slow. Although if you're timelines are using Colorista then it's not suprising that plug-in is well known to slow down exports to a crawl. So it does seem strange that even when using use previews your exports are so slow.
CompuNovice... that sounds reasonable to me though. You're actually compressing the footage in a VBR-2pass Mpeg-2. And it's still running at almost reall time.
As for Colorista brining exports to a crawl... not in FCP. Once you've rendered... you've renderd. I can open up my edit and export a "same as edit" formated video in about 2 minutes for a 30 minute edit (without compressing it). So that's not a Colorista thing... it's a premiere thing.
The PC I have available has Dual Quadro cards, but being a PC there are some nice plugins that I like to use that aren't available which is why I usually stay on my 6 month old Mac.
That beings said, you've mentioned what your source material is, but....
- What is the codec and settings you're using for your sequence
- What is the codec and settings that you're using for previews.
- When you export it sounds like you do not check "sequence settings" or "Use previews". If you don't compress to a new format, are you able to get to a fast export? I.E. Faster then real time. If so, what are your export settings?
My source footage is usually 1920x1080i ProRes HQ. Then I usually export to 1920x1080i mpeg-2. My sequence settings are generally always 1920x1080i I always leave my preview codec set to the default since I never use the "use previews" option. Generally I always just use the standard mpeg-2 i-frame only preview option since I don't mind if my preview is lossless or not since I don't ever use the "use preview" option.
Basically what I was trying to point out was that you where saying here that it would take hours to export a 30min program.
As an example if you have a 30 minute edit, and need to change a lower 3rd, and export out the change, it would take hours because the export would be re-rendering every graphic and effect for the entire show.... ever, single time.
So I was wondering what type of specs your system had if it takes it hours to export a 30 minute program. Generally speaking I almost always export to mpeg-2 because that's what our play-server in at our station supports. Unless it's a promo or HQ master copy of something that needs to be archived.
Also to answer your last question I never check the sequence settings option since I prefer to select all my options on my own because I have customized presets anyways.
If you'd like I will test the "use previews option" but quite honestly I don't usually ever need to render my timeline to preview stuff unless I try to do animations inside Premiere. My stuff always just plays in real-time. I do however agree that if you take the time to render your stuff in the timeline it SHOULD export faster so I'm not really sure why you're experincing such long wait times, but I did just want to point out that for me my timelines always export much faster than a few hours.
Also are you talking about using FCP7 or FCP X? Because the few times I used FCP7 on my friends Macbook pro it was terrible I had to render everytime I changed a single key-frame. It kept saying "warning dropped frames" It was a terrible experince. So basically I was stuck having to render something over and over and over. But when using Premiere I don't have to render very often unless I'm trying to animate something or work on something with really heavy CC, scaling, effects etc.
I haven't had a chance to try these setting out yet.
But to answer your other questions, I'm running a QuadCore i7 2.5Ghz with 8 GB of ram.
I think premiere does have better methods of dealing with Ram and calculations and the ability to play things as you work then FCP7. (I.E. having to render everytime you change something in FCP so that it will even play). However... on this machine, I've exported 10 minute edit sequences that have numerous plugins such as colorista in about 20 seconds with FCP7 . Similar sequences in Premiere consistantly take 2 hours (with Colorista and other such plugins).
Now, in FCP7 that's exporting an edit that is the same as the sequence setting. If I chose something else, there is obviously an encoding step that takes a few minutes. Usually at or around the actual length of the video. (9 minutes for a 10 minute edit). But as I said, my issue is that FCP can export a full edit without re-rendering all of the "effects", premiere seems that it can't.
Of course, if I don't have any effects in premiere or use very 'light' effects, it processes so fast that a 10 minute edit exports in 5 to 8 mintues... but that's not what I'm looking to solve.
I almost always try to export a current "Master" of any edit so that if I need to encode multiple formats later, I can just drop that single clip into Sorenson or MediaEncoder to batch multiple formats. And considering the constant re-render of complex video effects in premiere, it's an absolute necessity it seems.
I'm with you on this Cincy Dave, these long exports are just crazy. Don't get me wrong I really love Premiere and like all of the extra stuff it gives me over FCP7, but having to render every export is insanely slow.
Someone from Adobe stated on another thread somewhere that the realtime benefits you get in the timeline from hardly any rendering, save so much time in the edit process that the time gained negates the lost time at export. However when you export over and over again for client review, rendering every little thing time and time again is just a waste. More to the point if I can't roughly predict how long an export will take I'm reluctant to even begin the edit in Premiere in the first place, particularly if I have a client sat in the room with me.
I've also learnt to my cost that dynamic linking between Premiere and After Effects is not necessarily a good thing as for the same reason as above when you export it just adds that much more time. Plus I discovered it is far faster to render that clip in After Effects and then bring it in to Premiere.
My last edit was done in FCPX, something I never thought I would have done but a year on from the launch and it is finally doing the things it should have at the start. It still has its problems but rendering and export is not one of them.
Please get this sorted Adobe as I really want to confidently use your software.
Glad to hear I'm not nuts. I think the thing that was throwing me off (when looking for an answer) was that most premiere users have adapted to leaning more heavily on the real-time effects. And of course, Adobe is highlighting the speed of Cuda... which does little for me on a Macbook pro... not until they come out with a laptop quadro version anyway.
Unfortuanetly, I'm in the boat of needing to regularly do tweaks and export new edits. And nothing is more agravating then going from a FCP workflow where doing a tweak and exporting a new edit can take as little as 3 minutes. But doing it in Premiere will now take 90 minutes each time.
I agree, there are great features in premiere, but I know that I'll always be in a position where I'll get a last minute call to fix a title and quickly get a new edit out... this just won't cut it.
RE: Longer render times -
About the time of the recent Adobe updates I upgraded to RAID 0 and some things are faster... I just completed editing a 3 minute video with very limited titles and effects. Normally a render would take an hour or two for my usual jobs. But today Media Encoder has been at it for 4 hours and says it will take another 16 hours to complete... for a 3 minute video????
Premiere now likes to crash during simple renders and the "updated" Encore has a new problem where it can't record to DVD without ending a "hardware" error so I have to go to ISO first and the DVDs are fine. I found THAT out after wasting more than a day chasing down hardware bios updates and trying in vain to complete the DVD in Encore.
After the month long fiasco during which Adobe "support" accomplished absoutely nothing (I finally found the answer in this forum) I'm not in any mood to subject myself to Adobe's Malaysian Torture experience.
What the $&*@# is going on?
(Win 7/64, Phenom II, rendering to H.264/MP4, YouTube 29.97, 1080)
Very wierd for a 3 minute video, something is obviously up. I export 30 minute timelines in 20-35 minutes (depending on whats inside the timeline). Even though AMD CPU's don't really hold up to well vs Intel CPU's it still shouldn't be taking that long. Clearly something strange is occuring.
It will handle anything x 720 but nothing 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080. Anything above that and about 40 seconds into the render there is some kind fo blip screen flash and it freezes. The roblem does not appear in CS5.5 or CS5.
UPDATE: Searched for updates and found a new update that appears to have solved this particular problem.
So I found another post of someone trying to dig into this. It's older, but it laid out the issue very nicely. I'm really hoping that Adobe is planning on addressing this, because it's a hole big enough for a Semi-truck to drive through.
The other blog was doing something similar to my situation which was using MagicBullet plugins. These seem to be the cause, but none the less, it's how Adobe uses pre-renders... doesn't that is the real problem. The chart of render vs export times tells the story.
This is for a 3 minutes sequence. As you can see, once you edit on a non-Premiere package, exports fly. And if you re-edit a small clip (changing a title for example). The re-render is only for that tiny section, and an export will take less then a minute. For Premiere you have to render... every.... single... time. Please Adobe, please fix this.
Is that the new (not yet released) Premeire?
I think this feature enhancement will make a lot of people happy.
I think it will make a lot of QT users happy. We've had this functionality with AVI files since forever.