32 Replies Latest reply on Sep 2, 2013 2:05 PM by VasylT

    Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided

    deejjjaaaa Level 2

      Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably)

       

      raw file in question, posted by somebody in dpreview forum = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/50147350/P8261159.ORF

        • 1. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
          Vit Novak Level 3

          Emmm ... some more info would be nice. Do you have a link to that discussion ?

           

          Can't see a big difference between ACR result and jpeg embedded in the raw file, except in blown blue letters - it's expected for matrix profile

          • 2. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
            deejjjaaaa Level 2

            > , except in blown blue letters - it's expected for matrix profile

             

            exactly the point - why they shall be blown there ?

             

            rawdigger = http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/3546/p826115920120829132310r.jpg

            • 3. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
              Vit Novak Level 3

              As evident from your screenshot, those letters are not blown in raw - there are only a few pixels where one of the channels (blue) is reaching saturation. However, that blue color is very saturated and is mostly falling outside output color space (which is usually sRGB or Adobe RGB) or in other words, your monitor isn't able to display that color

               

              Conversion from raw color space to output color space is done using profiles and can be colorimetric or perceptual. If conversion is colorimetric, colors outside output color space are simply clamped into the range (for instance RGB  -15, -30, 270 --> 0, 0, 255). If conversion is perceptual, colors that would fall outside color space are compressed into it (for instance it could be  -15, -30, 270 --> 10, 5, 253). In first case, colors inside output color space are 'correct', while those outside are wrong - less saturated and possibly with wrong hue. In the second case, colors outside color space are 'less wrong', but colors inside color space are also 'less correct', but overall result is mostly more pleasing to the eye. This compression is performed differently by each manufacturer.

               

              Each camera model has own set of profiles. Most simple profile is an 3x3 array named color matrix, used for this color conversion - it is embedded in ACR for all supported cameras and can be also written in raw file. It is colorimetric. Then there is Adobe standard profile for all supported cameras in form of dcp file. It is a combination of matrix and lookup table conversion, which is still close to being colorimetric (however, there are several versions). Other profiles that are emulating camera rendering are perceptual (on some cameras there is also one profile said to be colorimetric, for instance Faithful profile in Canon cameras). Unfortunately, there are no camera profiles for Olympus yet, so colorimetric conversion is the only option (ok, another option is using new version of sRGB profile and its perceptual rendering intent, but it is not possible directly in ACR).

               

              In this particular case, you can improve the look of those letters by moving saturation slider of blue primary (camera calibration tab) from 0 to about -15, which will modify color matrix used for conversion and desaturate whole blue range. Or do the similar thing with slider in HSL tab

               

              If PV2010 used, some of blown blue color turns violet. It's also a know issue, actually I also reported it several years ago, and is caused by usage of Photo pro color space as intermediate and some clamping of values in ACR workflow. In this case it may be corrected in calibration tab by moving blue hue slider a bit to left, which will change hues of blue range towards cyan.

               

              Etc. This area is quite complex, I'm familiar only with a small part of it, which I needed for making camera profiles

              • 4. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                deejjjaaaa Level 2

                > Then there is Adobe standard profile for all supported cameras in form of dcp file. It is a combination of matrix and lookup table conversion

                 

                OK, that is the issue to say briefly - EM5 has already V4 (?) profile and it does not bring (rendering, set by lookup table, is not perceptual) the "blue" colors that we have here within the proper range (gamut) saturation wise...

                • 5. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                  Vit Novak Level 3

                  Hmmmm ... checked Adobe standard for EM5. It is a bit different than most older Adobe standard profiles - it has a pair of 2D lookup tables before matrix conversion, However, from what I see, most of color conversion here is still performed by the color matrix. Amount of correction made by additional lookup tables is quite subtle. This is still colorimetric profile, just slightly improved

                   

                  Camera profiles signed v2, v3, v4 (and most new profiles without version sign) are significantly different - all conversion is effectively performed using one big 3D lookup table, and v4 have some other exif tags not used here (and not published yet), connected with processing of that lookup table

                   

                  Can you post a link to discussion at that forum, just to see what it is about? Tried to find it yesterday, but without success

                  • 6. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                    deejjjaaaa Level 2

                    sure, here it is = http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=42354760

                     

                    so what do we have in .dcp for EM5 ? dcp profile version "5" or "1.5" ? if it is so different than what you saw elsewhere from Adobe, isn't it ?

                    • 7. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                      Vit Novak Level 3

                      Ok, try these profiles and see are they any better for you. They are named "Adobe standard old 1" and  "Adobe standard old 2"

                       

                      http://depositfiles.com/files/1ze9yotdu

                       

                      I just replaced a lookup table in Adobe standard for EM5 with a lookup table from older Adobe standard profiles. Old version actually wasn't colorimetric, but included some rendering, so blue color bothering you isn't oversaturated. There are some differences in other colors too

                       

                      Adobe standard old 1 includes 2 additional lookup tables that I mentioned, while in old 2 I removed them, so you can see how much difference they bring. That's all I can do ATM.If they don't work good for you, just erase them and forget it


                      About the "version" (v1 - v4), I think it was connected with version of program for making camera profiles. As I said, Adobe standard profiles are made different way, so using the same nomenclature probably isn't appropriate. But I think these signatures could be about right:

                       

                      Adobe standard = v1.1.1

                      Adobe standard old 1 = v1.0.1

                      Adobe standard old 2 = v1.0.0

                      • 8. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                        VasylT

                        I am that person who started the original thread on DPReview forums.

                        Both standard old 1 and standard old 2 look better than the standard one: at least, the shape of the letters is clearly recognizable. It is hard to tell which one is better, I would say, standard old 1 has a little edge but it may be subjective. It is actually not terribly far from the OOC version. Still a little bit blown though.

                        Interestingly enough, the other affected colors are also closer to the Olympus OOC conversion, like the book cover gets a little more red in old profiles.Looking at the actual book, the current profile got it closer.

                        • 9. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                          Vit Novak Level 3

                          Here are some camera profiles

                           

                          http://depositfiles.com/files/uua960zph

                           

                          I made them by combining lookup table in Canon 400D camera standard, Camera faithful and Nikon D300 camera standard with the rest of Adobe standard profile for EM5. These are all v1 type profiles so they can be combined that way - under assumption that theory about matrix color conversion is true. Unfortunately, it's only an aproximation, so EM5 raw file with these profiles won't produce  the same result as those cameras - but if you take 3 different Canon cameras for instance, all of them will also produce different result, so it won't be any better. Or if you use some other software that has possibilities to emulate various cameras, for instance DxO, 400D raw file + 400D profile won't have much in common even with 400D rendering at the first place, not to mention emulating 400D with some other camera which is possible out of the box

                           

                          Comparing 400D faithful and Adobe standard, which are both supposed to be colorimetric, you can also see that this word has different meanings ...

                           

                          Important note: profiles I posted are experimental only. I combined stuff  made by Adobe in a way that is theoretically correct (or at least I hope it is), but if colors don't look right with them, don't blame Adobe for it. Furthermore, these are v1 type profiles, so they are not as good as latest v4 camera profiles made by Adobe. Unfortunately, it's not possible to combine v2,v3,v4 profiles that way

                          • 10. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                            VasylT Level 1

                            These are actually worse -- there is a strong purple cast on blue on all three.

                            • 11. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                              Vit Novak Level 3

                              Correct. It actually proves that PV2012 still isn't perfect when working with v1 profiles

                               

                              You may want to compare "400D Camera standard" with ""400D Camera standard v2"

                               

                              http://depositfiles.com/files/jhxoeqrb7

                               

                              It is the same profile, just recalculated to v2 type, so that matrix conversion into Photo Pro color space is avoided. It could be probably done even better, my code for this is more than 2 years old ...

                               

                              However, camera isn't perfect either. While ACR is showing wrong colors on about 1% of the photo (depending on the profile), camera is showing wrong color on 10% of the photo - cyan cast of blown blue (lens, top of the camera), which Canon cameras had sorted at least 6years ago  (I'm not a fan of Canon - I'm using mostly Panasonic compact now, but it's how it is)

                              • 12. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                VasylT Level 1

                                Interesting. This one looks much better then the rest on blue lettering but I can see some color issues elsewhere. The cyan cast is not too bad in my opinion, I am more concerned about very strong red cast on light browns (book cover, desk). Almost like the red is now oversaturated.

                                • 13. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                  Vit Novak Level 3

                                  Yes, actually very strange. I used my old code that did the job well with original Camera standard on 400D - tried again the same thing (with 400D) and works good - issue with violet cast on blue highlights is resolved while other colors are not affected. However, on this profile for OM5 the same program also changed other colors during transformation from v1 to v2. Can't find explanation for that right now (probably connected with smaller size of LUT and different matrix, but can be something else). So forget the last profile I posted

                                   

                                  Anyway, these profiles I sent are just experimental, as I said. Unfortunately, I can make proper camera profiles only for Canon and Nikon - I don't have a code that will make a orf file from my calibration target, which is needed for making the profile. So you'll have to wait until Adobe makes them

                                  • 14. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                    Ok, found the reason - there are of course two matrices in the profile (daylingt and tungsten). In case of 400D profile, they were not much different, but here, they are considerably different, and only one matrix can be used to convert to v2 profile this way

                                     

                                    Now, I sligtly modifyed Camera standard v1, by retuning daylight matrix. Position of blue primary was way beyond all limits, making this violet issue bigger. I moved it closer towards white point. However, this will also result in desaturation of whole blue range. Also slightly modified position of red and green primary (moving each primary affects all colors). Can't do much better this way - smaller the pixels, less accurate matrix conversion.is

                                     

                                    http://depositfiles.com/files/cgfyf7yd5

                                     

                                    This one is "400D camera standard v1b". There are will still be considerable differences between jpeg and raw with this profile, also because - Canon rendering is considerably different

                                    • 15. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                      VasylT Level 1

                                      For now, this is the best one overall. There is still a slight purple cast on blues and still a little too much red in light browns but it is definitely an improvement. It looks like the overall contrast is a little higher, probably, just a side effect of using Canon rendering.

                                      • 16. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                        Vit Novak Level 3

                                        Yes, Canon renders reds considerably differently - maybe connected with "Canon red" and "Olympus yellow" badge. Tone curve is also different, leading to different contrast

                                         

                                        One more try - Adobe standard with old style lookup table, converted from v1 to v2 workflow. Used original daylight matrix. Tryed on 3 photos, looks slightly closer to Olympus rendering than with lookup table for Canon and highlights are slightly improved compared to v1 workflow. However, still far from perfect I suppose

                                         

                                        http://depositfiles.com/files/x4ysevyjx

                                        • 17. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                          VasylT Level 1

                                          Maybe not perfect but quite acceptable. It is actually quite close to Olympus rendering. At any rate, it is way better than the original profile.

                                          Is there any way to force a not standard camera profile to be a default one without much hacking? The problem is that some plugins (particularly, Nik HDR Efex) do not allow much control over ACR -- they just use all default parameters.

                                          • 18. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                            Vit Novak Level 3

                                            Well, if this profile is acceptable for you (I suggest checking it on bigger batch of photos first), you can set it as default with save settings option (click on small icon on the right of "camera calibration" to open the menu). However, I don't know does it work with plugins also. If it doesn't work, you can try moving other profiles to different folder, leaving only this one

                                            • 19. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                              VasylT Level 1

                                              I'll definitely experiment more. So far tried it on about a dozen of everyday pictures. Most did not show much differences, only some subtle change, generally neither good nor bad. However, there was one shot that changed significantly and, I should say, in the positive direction. In case if you want to see: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/50147350/P9021335.ORF

                                              The sky color is a little bit better with "old v2" but the most interesting change is on those red flags. The one in the middle is rather disgusting shade of orange with "standard," with your profile it renders as proper red with just some orange tint.

                                              I've verified that Nik plugin uses the current default so no problems there -- thanks for info about that menu item, somehow I missed it.

                                              Thank you for all your help. I hope this thread will be noticed by Adobe developers so we get a properly working profile with one of ACR updates. The current version does disservice to a good camera and with popularity of LR4 among OM-D owners that's really bad.

                                              • 20. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                                There is actually an interesting story connected with this flag. Prior to introduction of profiles, ACR had only matrix type strictly colorimetric workflow (some other programs were using profiles several years earlier). One of the problems was that red-yellow range frequently didn't look "right". You can change the calibration whether with sliders on the camera calibration tab or changing the matrix in dng files directly. I made a program for this at that time, mostly to use it with my Canon compacts that were unsupported by ACR, but were able to produce dng files using software hack (unfortunately authors of the hack never made good color matrices for those cameras). But, whether red color looked too orange or skin color looked too reddish, depending on the position of red primary defined by color matrix. Then Adobe introduced profiles and one of advantages mentioned by them was improved colors in this range. Lookup table in this profile is from that time. However, 2-3 years later, they introduced different lookup table in adobe standard profiles, reverting back to more colorimetric approach. The old lookup table (like in Adobe standard for Canon 400D) looks like it was obtained from some camera, while the new one (which is also in Adobe standard for OM5) looks like it was calculated using some algorithm and then slightly manualy corrected in some parts

                                                 

                                                However, it's the same with all cameras if Adobe standard profile is used, not only OM5, just to a bit different extent (depending on actual calibration of the camera, which depends on sensor)

                                                • 21. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                  Reading your posts, Vit, a modified phrase from a song popped into my head:  "He's a profile wizard, there has to be a trick, a profile wizard's got such a supple wrist...

                                                   

                                                  I sense that you easily visualize stuff that is completely opaque to most folks.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                                    Well, I wasted huge amount of time because I was curious how things work 

                                                    • 24. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                      VasylT Level 1

                                                      Did Adobe just break a custom profile support with one of the recent updates? I can't get these profiles to appear in "Camera Calibration" tab anymore -- it only shows "Adobe Standard." The files are still where I put them before in ProgramData/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Other. I've tried renaming the folder, moving the files around, no effect. It looks like there is an index file there that probably needs updating but no obvious means to do that. Any idea?

                                                      • 25. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                        VasylT Level 1

                                                        Replying to my own question as I figured it myself - this may save somebody some time. The new update did not break the custom profiles but actually fixed the way they are loaded. I initially placed the profiles under C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles - that's where the standard Adobe profiles are stored - and this was a mistake. This location does not work anymore. The profiles now have to be placed in Users\<USER>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\<some subfolder>. As much as I am annoyed by this unexpected change with the update I have to agree that it is a more correct location. Given that this update also finally fixed the stupid crash in Bridge (when TEMP folder is not on C:) I am quite content with the current state of Photoshop.

                                                        • 26. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                          Only the Adobe-installed profiles should go in the ProgramData path (shared system location).  User-installed custom profiles need to go in the per-user folder.

                                                           

                                                          (Earlier versions of ACR and Lightroom would read user-installed profiles from both locations, but not anymore.)

                                                          • 28. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                            deejjjaaaa Level 2

                                                            any chance that Adobe will add an ability to use .dcp profile from the same OS folder where the current raw file (opened in ACR) is located ?

                                                            • 29. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                                              Actually it wouldn't be a bad idea for users that have a number of profile versions, for instance calibrated for specific lighting type, so you can put the profile together with the batch of photos.

                                                              It would be nice have a dropdown box with options: profiles from common folder (from Adobe), profiles from user folder, profiles from current folder and all profiles ...

                                                              • 30. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                To be honest, I think it is very unlikely that we will add additional paths/directories from which we read profiles.  You can organize profiles into subfolders from the user-specific path indicated above, and if you ever edit from multiple machines (e.g., a desktop vs laptop) then the main parent folder is the one that you would have to sync across those machines, instead of fishing all over the file system.

                                                                • 31. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                                  Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                  It was just an idea. I'm an amateur photographer and I actually don't need it, but from other posts it seems that some other people have a number of custom profiles, so putting a profile with corresponding raw files (like xmp files are) may be handy.

                                                                   

                                                                  Back to the topic, I made some further efforts to make a profile for Olympus EM-5, so her's my next try, in case someone wants to check it ... It's a v4 profile, with tone curve similar to Adobe standard, but slightly different workflow

                                                                   

                                                                  http://www.sendspace.com/file/vmu89p

                                                                  • 32. Re: Olympus EM5 - profile issue (probably), raw file example provided
                                                                    VasylT Level 1

                                                                    Did not have a chance to try this one (very busy schedule at work) and now the file is gone from sendspace. Vit, can you reupload the file, please?