16 Replies Latest reply on Aug 31, 2012 10:49 AM by limback

    Way to keep paragraphs together?

    limback Level 1

      I'm working on a large honor roll of donors and volunteers. I need a way to keep lines of text together when they are separate paragraphs.

       

      Category name

      Category description

      Name of person 1

      Name of person 2

      Name of person 3

      Name of person ...

       

      This formatting repeats throughout the listing. I need a way to keep the category name, description and at least three individuals together without having to insert a column break. I also need to make sure that at least three individual names stay together if it breaks to another column. I understand how I could do this if all of these were in one paragraph, but is there a way to keep lines together that are separate paragraphs?

       

      I've looked at paragraph styles, character styles, etc., but haven't stumbled on the right way to do this. Appreciate any help you can provide.

        • 1. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Keep options...

          • 2. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
            Alec Molloy Employee Moderator

            What Peter said:

             

            Screen Shot 2012-08-30 at 4.09.26 PM.png

            • 3. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
              limback Level 1

              I have tried using the keep options but I must be something wrong because at the bottom of my second column, for example, it's breaking.

               

              Category name runs on two lines

              Category description is one line

              Jane Doe

              John Doe

              John Smith

               

              John Smith is getting kicked to the top of the next colum. Each of those names are separate paragraphs. What am I missing?

              • 4. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                limback wrote:

                 

                Category name

                Category description

                Name of person 1

                Name of person 2

                Name of person 3

                Name of person ...

                 

                This formatting repeats throughout the listing. I need a way to keep the category name, description and at least three individuals together without having to insert a column break. I also need to make sure that at least three individual names stay together if it breaks to another column.

                What is supposed to happen when you have four, or five, names and it needs to break? Which column gets the three names? You are going to probably need at least two paragraph styles for the names, one with a keep with next option or a keep with previous option, and one without so that you can control where you want the break to happen. There's really not a way to apply these automatically unless every listing has the same number of paragraphs. It would be simpler, and possible to automate, if you wanted to keep ALL of the lines in a listing together and leave a blank space at the bottom of the column if there was not enough sapce, but I sense this isn't that sort of listing.

                • 5. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                  limback Level 1

                  In this case, I actually would want this category to push entirely to the next column. But in other categories, there may be 100+ names, so I just need to always have at least three paragraphs kept together. Or actually, I guess to take into account the category name and description, I need probablly 5 lines kept together throughout.

                   

                  This is 32+ pages of listings, so I'm trying to figure out a way to automatically handle it. When names get added or removed, if I've already forced a break, then that creates problems. I have been able to get lists to stay together (except when they naturally run over more than one column) but that creates really dramatic breaks.

                  • 6. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    So you are saying you want category name, category description, and at least three names to remain at the bottom of a column, or the whole thing should move?

                     

                    If I have that right you want one style for the category name, with a keep option to keep with next, and a next style that is the category description. The category description style also needs a keep with next, and a next style, which should be name style 1. You need two more name styles, both based on name style 1. Name style 1 has a keep with next optioin and name style 2 as the next style, name style two also has the keep option, but uses name style 3 as the next style, name style 3 has no keep option and sames tyle for next style.

                     

                    Applying the category name and descriptions styles to category names and descriptions should be self evident, I think. You apply Name style 1 to the first name, name style 2 to the second, and name style 3 to ALL other names in the list. You can apply all of these styles correctly to an entire category by clciking the the category name, then hold the shift key and click inthe last name in the category, selecting all of the paragraphs (or at least part of all the paragraphs) in a category. In the Paragraph Styles panel right click on the Category Name style, then choose Apply Category Name and Next Style, and that block will be styled.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                      Graham vdR Level 1

                      Perhaps you could replace the paragraph returns separating your names with forced line breaks (Shift + Enter/Return). These could then have a paragraph style that specifies that three lines must be kept together at the beginning and at the end. Your category name and category descriptions could have styles that keep with the next one line, and category name would also specify that all lines are kept together.

                       

                      If you need to use a GREP search to replace the returns, it could look like this: Find what: (.+)\r(?!\r) Change to: $1\n Find format and change format would both be your person name paragraph style.

                       

                      I agree that this is not quite as ideal as one might like (using the forced line breaks instead of proper paragraph returns), but it seems to work fine with my simple trial.

                      • 8. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                        limback Level 1

                        Graham - I think that could work except some of the names run on to a second line. I've currently got it set to automatically indent that second line of text. Is there a better way to address that?

                         

                        Peter - I think that would keep the group at the beginning of the listing, but not at the end. So if I have six names in my list and I have space for four at the bottom of the column, it would leave just two hanging at the top of the next column. I actually would need it to push one extra name to the top of that column too.

                        • 9. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                          peter minneapolis Level 4

                          If indeed no listing should break across a boundary, a table with one listing per cell could work, taking advantage of InDesign's fabulously magical inability to break cells across boundaries.

                           

                           

                          HTH

                           

                           

                          Regards,

                           

                           

                          Peter

                          _______________________

                          Peter Gold

                          KnowHow ProServices

                           

                          Peter Spier wrote:

                           

                          So you are saying you want category name, category description, and at least three names to remain at the bottom of a column, or the whole thing should move?

                           

                          If I have that right you want one style for the category name, with a keep option to keep with next, and a next style that is the category description. The category description style also needs a keep with next, and a next style, which should be name style 1. You need two more name styles, both based on name style 1. Name style 1 has a keep with next optioin and name style 2 as the next style, name style two also has the keep option, but uses name style 3 as the next style, name style 3 has no keep option and sames tyle for next style.

                           

                          Applying the category name and descriptions styles to category names and descriptions should be self evident, I think. You apply Name style 1 to the first name, name style 2 to the second, and name style 3 to ALL other names in the list. You can apply all of these styles correctly to an entire category by clciking the the category name, then hold the shift key and click inthe last name in the category, selecting all of the paragraphs (or at least part of all the paragraphs) in a category. In the Paragraph Styles panel right click on the Category Name style, then choose Apply Category Name and Next Style, and that block will be styled.

                          • 10. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                            Graham vdR Level 1

                            Ah, yes, that would be a problem.

                             

                            It’s getting pretty unwieldy now, but you could do as Peter Spier suggested then create similar styles to go at the end that keep with the previous paragraphs. Then you could use a GREP search to apply these.

                             

                            It’s not a very elegant solution, and it certainly feels like there should be an easier way to do it.

                             

                            I’m on CS4 which doesn’t have the keep with previous option, so I can’t try it out.

                            • 11. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                              limback Level 1

                              Peter - I now have a mad crush on you. It's working. Much, much <3 to you both for giving me just great help.

                              • 12. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                limback wrote:

                                 

                                 

                                Peter - I think that would keep the group at the beginning of the listing, but not at the end. So if I have six names in my list and I have space for four at the bottom of the column, it would leave just two hanging at the top of the next column. I actually would need it to push one extra name to the top of that column too.

                                Well, see, you weren't clear about that earlier, and that's why I asked about cases of 4 or five names where it would be impossible to have 3 names in both columns.

                                 

                                Sounds like you worked something out, but I can't tell what it is (I don't think Peter G's idea for a table will work if there are enough names that they occupy two columns). A fourth name style could be added that has a keep with previous option, and that style applied to the last three names, but you'd have to do that manually. I think. I don't know a way to automaticall select the last three names in the group.

                                • 13. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                                  Graham vdR Level 1

                                  A fourth name style could be added that has a keep with previous option, and that style applied to the last three names, but you'd have to do that manually. I think. I don't know a way to automaticall select the last three names in the group.

                                   

                                  As I suggested above, you could use a GREP search to apply these styles. Something like:

                                   

                                  Find what: (.+\r.+\r.+\r)(?=\r)

                                  Change to: $1

                                  Find Format: Paragraph Style: [Person name style]

                                  Change Format: Paragraph Style: [Last three people style]

                                   

                                  Is this what you did, limback?

                                  • 14. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    Graham, I may be misreading the GREP query here, but it looks to me as if it depends on having a blank paragraph between the last name and the next category name. I'm not sure you can rely on that being there, and as a mater of good typesetting it probably shouldn't be. In a case where that blank paragraph ends up at the top of a column it will leave a blank line where there shouldn't be one. In my opinion it's better form to use Space Before on the category names.

                                     

                                    That said, IF the blank line already exists in the text, I would day go for it and use it, then run another search to remove empty paragraphs.

                                    • 15. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                                      Graham vdR Level 1

                                      Ah, true. I did think of that at some point, then forgot. So it could depend on the workflow and how the text is generated (whether that blank line is there or not).

                                       

                                      I had a similar problem with a project of my own recently, except I wanted entire listings to remain together (they’re not very long). I achieved this by putting each listing into an anchored text frame. (The text was all generated with a script—I wouldn’t like to have to do this manually.) I was using the Space Before there as well, so I should have remembered.

                                      • 16. Re: Way to keep paragraphs together?
                                        limback Level 1

                                        Whoops. My crush is on Peter S. That's what appears to be working. And there is not a blank paragraph between the end of one list and the beginning of the next category. I'm using the space above feature.