17 Replies Latest reply on Sep 5, 2012 9:06 AM by b2martin_a

    Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?

    areohbee Level 6

      I know I have to redo my custom Nikon profiles, when new versions are released, because the new versions are, versioned. But what about those based on Adobe Standard - do they need to be redone too?

        • 1. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
          b2martin_a Level 2

          What do you mean by "versioned"?

          • 2. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
            Level 5

            "New versions" of what?

             

            What do youm mean by "redo"?

             

             

            • 3. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
              areohbee Level 6

              b2martin_a wrote:

               

              What do you mean by "versioned"?

               

              They have version numbers, visible, by their names, in the camera calibration profile drop-down box, and in the filename, in the camera calibration profile directory.

              • 4. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                areohbee Level 6

                station_two wrote:

                 

                "New versions" of what?

                 

                Camera calibration profiles.

                 

                 

                 

                station_two wrote:

                 

                What do youm mean by "redo"?

                 

                Open DNG Profile Editor, re-load the recipe, and re-export the camera calibration profile.

                • 5. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                  areohbee Level 6

                  To clarify:

                   

                  When Adobe releases new versions of camera emulation profiles, they can be distinguished from the previous version by their version number.

                   

                  When Adobe releases new versions of Adobe Standard, they replace the previous versions automatically, and there is no version number associated with them, that is discernable by me.

                   

                  Or I could be wrong about that: It could be that no new version of Adobe Standard has ever been released. Or something else is going on that I don't understand. In any case, my goal here is to know what's going on, and whether I need to take action to assure my custom camera calibration profiles based on Adobe Standard are up to date, now, and in the future...

                   

                  Rob

                  • 6. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                    b2martin_a Level 2

                    I think Adobe is the only one that can answer your question. 

                     

                    I don't believe Adobe would release an Adobe Standard Profile for a camera that was different than what was previously released without adding a version number, but good question.  

                    • 7. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      One way to test for a particular camera would be to download the oldest version of ACR that supported the camera since profiles were in dcp files and then install that somewhere to get at the oldest profile you can, decompile it with dcptool and compare that to the current dcp-based profile to see if anything’s different.

                      • 8. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                        areohbee Level 6

                        b2martin_a wrote:

                         

                        ...good question...

                         

                        Perhaps another good question is:

                         

                        What conditions need to prevail before a version number will be added to a camera calibration profile, or removed from it.

                         

                        At present, I have a D300 plain, and v4, in my camera calibration profile drop-down, and in the profile directory, but no v3, yet the previous version was visible as v3 before v4 came along, if I remember correctly.

                         

                        Likewise, there are a multitude of different ACR profile versions I've seen for different cameras over the years, but I've never ever seen or heard of a different version of Adobe Standard, visible to the user I mean.

                         

                        There was a recent thread talking about how Adobe Standard had versions of:

                        1.0

                        1.0.1

                        1.1

                        or something like that, in one case anyway, but I don't think those versions were ever discernible by the user (or am I wrong?), - only discernible by people like Vit Novak who disects these profiles surgically...

                         

                        Bottom line: I'm totally confused about camera calibration profile versioning, and how new versions take the place of old versions, without a version number, or are added alongside with a new version number...

                         

                        Rob

                        • 9. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                          dorin_nicolaescu Level 5

                          I don't think the profiles have changed for any old cameras. Even if some

                          new tech is being used in profiles of  newer  cameras, which makes them

                          v1.0.1 or v1.1, it doesn't necessary mean it is also used to update

                          profiles of older cameras. So, perhaps, there's nothing to redo.

                          • 10. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                            Rob Cole wrote:

                             

                            Open DNG Profile Editor, re-load the recipe, and re-export the camera calibration profile.

                             

                            Isn't the point kind of moot?

                             

                            The DNG Profile Editor, from what I can see, hasn't been updated any time recently.  It has been languishing for years (okay - a year and a half, since April 2011).  Does last year's model know anything of the newest V4 profile format?

                             

                            Or did I somehow miss a new release somewhere?  To say things are easy to find on Adobe's sites would be an overstatement.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                              areohbee Level 6

                              Hi Noel,

                               

                              It's my understanding that Adobe will be releasing the DNG 1.4 spec and a new DNG Profile Editor soon (based on my interpretation of a recent comment by Eric Chan). They are tardy.

                               

                              I've been waiting for that, so I haven't redone my v4 profiles yet.

                               

                              Perhaps Adobe will shout loudly when that stuff gets released, or maybe it will be more of a whisper.

                               

                              I may assume AdobeStandard-based profiles don't need to be redone (as Dorin thinks, or try to figure it out more defnitively, as Steve Sprengel has posted), and leave them as is, or I may just redo them too, to be sure - dunno yet.

                               

                              Cheers,

                              Rob

                              • 12. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                Vit Novak was kind enough to use his home-grown tools to work me up a custom Canon EOS-40D profile, so I'm set already.  And it is Good!  I hope Adobe puts out tools that make these things a little more accessible to mere mortals.

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                                  Vit Novak Level 3

                                  As about versioning of profiles, it's like this:

                                   

                                  - profiles for older cameras are not redone - in new packages of acr or dng converter, there are always the same (original) profiles for those cameras, that were created according to their calibration method that was used at that time. This method was changed several times since introduction of profiles

                                  - version signatures have only profiles for those several Nikon cameras, so that users can select the right one (original version or new version). I presume it was to get some feedback from Nikon users

                                  - so far, adobe standard profiles didn't change much during timeline. Change that I noticed several years ago was different lookup table, and recently, addition of two other lookup tables (the same lookup tables that are modified by DNGPE if a profile is edited). All of them are similar to "v1" profiles - part of color conversion from sensor to output color space is done using color matrix, and part using lookup tables

                                  - camera profiles changed recently. First version was similar to adobe standard profiles - the same color matrix as in Adobe standard for that camera (actually 4 matrices), but lookup table calibrated according to camera rendering. From version 2 on, all conversion is efectively done using only lookup table - color matrices are used just for whitebalancing. This way, some issues connected with Photo Pro color space were avoided. Version 3 was temporary fix for truncation of top of dynamic range for DSLR cameras (shifting exposure slider was needed), while v4 introduced proper solution for this (no need for shifting exposure slider) and enhanced precision of profile due to different interpolation method of lookup table, which reduced possibility of banding - mostly for Nikon cameras, and improved precision in shadows.

                                  - Latest camera profiles are v4 and I suppose that all new profiles will be of that kind (or further improved if needed). Don't know about future of adobe standard profiles. As we can see in another thread, there are still some issues there - unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to be able to recalculate them in a way that would properly solve those issues, but I believe there are brilliant people in Adobe team who can modify the workflow to avoid these problems (those problems are actually rare - boundary cases like very saturated highlights, but they exist). Those issues were actually the reason why I switched to camera profiles

                                  • 14. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                                    areohbee Level 6

                                    Woa. I'm sure I didn't get all of that. But if you'll allow me to try and re-say what I did get:

                                     

                                     

                                    Vit Novak wrote:

                                     

                                    - profiles for older cameras are not redone...

                                     

                                    Are you talking about Adobe Standard, or Camera Emulation Profiles? I mean, the camera emulation profiles for my D300 have been redone a couple times, right? Or is D300 not considered "old" yet.

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    |> "version signatures have only profiles for those several Nikon cameras, so that users can select the right one (original version or new version). I presume it was to get some feedback from Nikon users"

                                     

                                    Although Nikon D300 profiles have been redone a couple times, I don't recall ever seeing more than "plain + newest version" on the menu. I guess that's what you are talking about. Begging the question: "what happened to v3 profile designation, and what's going to happen to the v4 designation in the future". Do the v3 profiles still exist? If not, what happened to the photos that were using them, if so, how does one tell the difference between them and v2 or v1? Or do all older profiles always appear plain, and only newer profiles carry a distinquishing version number. In that case, I would expect the v4 to appear plain when/if v5 is released. - is this how it works?

                                     

                                     

                                    |> "...so far, adobe standard profiles didn't change much during timeline. Change that I noticed..."

                                     

                                    Haven't changed much, but *have* changed. So if user had a photo that was being assigned Adobe Standard and a changed version came along, the photo would just use the changed version of Adobe Standard, and hopefully the user would never notice the difference, or would only notice improvement, or the changes are just "internal" and no change would be noticed by the user - did I get that right?

                                     

                                     

                                    I think I'll leave it at that for now.

                                     

                                     

                                    Rob

                                    • 15. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                                      Vit Novak Level 3

                                      Only cameras where camera profiles were redone are Nikon D3, D300 and D700. Eric posted v2 and v3 profiles in this forum and v4 profiles were added lately. Profiles for those cameras had version signature in the name, so you can see which version is it. Profiles for other cameras didn't change since they were created - all profiles for my 400D are still the same as 5 years ago (v1), although they have new datestamp

                                       

                                      You can still add v2 or v3 profiles for D300 if you want by simply copying dcp files posted by Eric to the profile folder (if you have them or if you download them again if the link is still active). But there is no advantage of doing it, because v4 profiles are better. Don't know why they dissapeared on your computer - I suppose that acr update procedure erased them

                                       

                                      So, camera profiles for other cameras have no version signature in the name. Those made several years ago are v1 type (file size about 111 kb), profiles for some cameras that appeared say last year are v2 or v3  and profiles for some last cameras are v4 type (filesize for v2,v3 and v4 is about 277 kb)

                                       

                                      It's similar with adobe standard profiles - if I open my old raw file from 400D with Adobe standrd in PV2003 workflow, it will look the same as 5 years ago, because profile didn't change. However, it will not look the same if I use PV2012. As you know, highlights have less contrast, but shadows also appear different - I asked Eric to comment this, still waiting for his answer. However, adobe standard profiles for new cameras are slightly different (for instance Olympus EM5), but still similar to v1 version. Of course, if changed profile with the same file name come along for my camera, result will be different - but so far it didn't happen

                                      • 17. Re: Do custom profiles based on Adobe Standard need to be re-created?
                                        b2martin_a Level 2

                                        I use Photoshop ACR for processing D700 RAW files.  I have updated ACR many times for Photoshop CS5 and now have Photoshop CS6 and have updated ACR twice and all profiles exist for the D700 - original, v2, v3, and v4.  I don't know if it's different for Lightroom. 

                                         

                                        Still awaiting an update for DNG Profile Editor so I can make adjustments to v4 profiles - assume you also want to adjust v4 profiles for the D300.