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1. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
Monika Gause Sep 8, 2012 7:11 AM (in response to TCarp)Make a compound path.
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2. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
[Jongware] Sep 8, 2012 7:12 AM (in response to TCarp)You can duplicate the object(s) to be clipped, and apply each polygon separately as a mask, leaving you with as much clipped objects as you had polygons. Or, you can merge all polygons into a single object (which does not have to overlap) using the pathfinder, and apply this as a clipping path.
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3. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
JETalmage Sep 9, 2012 5:27 PM (in response to [Jongware])...you can merge all polygons into a single object (which does not have to overlap) using the pathfinder, and apply this as a clipping path...
When applied to paths which do not overlap, Illustrator's Pathfinders typically create Groups, not Compound Paths.
Duplicating the clipped artwork would be very inefficient (assuming the intention is to have the clipped artwork appear as one instance spanning the several polygons).
Tom, select the several polygons. Then Object>Compound Path>Make. Then select the Compound Path and the artwork you are trying to mask and Object>Clipping Mask>Make.
That said, though…unless unavoidable for some reason, using clipping paths in an actual logo is not really best practice. A proper logo master file should be boiled down to the simplest and cleanest constructs possible. Unless there's something preventing it, you really should probably actually cut/crop the artwork, not merely mask it.
JET
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4. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
[Jongware] Sep 10, 2012 2:53 AM (in response to JETalmage)JETalmage wrote:
...you can merge all polygons into a single object (which does not have to overlap) using the pathfinder, and apply this as a clipping path...
When applied to paths which do not overlap, Illustrator's Pathfinders typically create Groups, not Compound Paths.
... !!! That sounded so incredibly ... stupid ... I did not believe you at first. Apologies, a simple test proves you are correct.
(Gosh. It makes me wonder how much time it took to create the New Improved Dark Interface.)
…unless unavoidable for some reason, using clipping paths in an actual logo is not really best practice. A proper logo master file should be boiled down to the simplest and cleanest constructs possible.
That's way better, actually.
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5. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
Wade_Zimmerman Sep 10, 2012 5:18 AM (in response to [Jongware])I think it all depends on the geometry of the logo. A group of five Polygons can mean almost anything.
for instance
Also just making a compound path can result in undesirable results.
Depending on the geomtry and perhaps the user actually wants to use an opacity mask.
Above I use clipping mask and opcaity mask and the pathfinder as well in order to make a shape to be a clipping mask.
if the objects are not overlapping the user might still want an opactiy mask by just grouping the polygons and filling them with black.
But without seeing the logo itself nd the desired results we are just guessing.
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6. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 11, 2012 7:28 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)First, thanks to all of you for taking the time to post. As usual, I continue to rely on the Adobe forums because of the quality of the dialog I get to see. As a beginner, these methods discussions are very helpful.
Wade, this is the logo. The last image in your post is the best example (i.e. the polygons are not connected).
Again, I think the thread has the technique I'm going to want to learn. I'll post back if I have issues or more questions.
Tom
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7. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 11, 2012 7:42 AM (in response to JETalmage)Jet, would you expand on this a little? What I want to be able to do is have some flexibility with the polygon fills. In some cases, the fill will be swatches. But I also want to have them function like a stencil letting backgrounds show through the fill area.
I'd rather use the "best" practice and could use a little more detail to fully understand.
Thanks
Tom
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8. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 11, 2012 7:05 PM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)I'm assuming what you and JET are talking about is the difference between clipping masks and transparancy masks. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Unfortunately, the U-Tube video tutorials I've looked at are not very helpful. They make an assumption about an understanding of the basics of masking that I don't have.
This post is just to let you know I'm looking for a tutorial on masking (including transparant masks) that "speaks" to my understanding level.
Tom
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9. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 11, 2012 7:14 PM (in response to TCarp)Attempting to understand masking, am I correct that I would start with the logo and use it to create a mask. If I understand what's being described in the tutorials, I would then use it to mask the raster images I want to show up as "fills" in the polygons. Do I have that right?
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10. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
Wade_Zimmerman Sep 11, 2012 8:26 PM (in response to TCarp)I did a little tutorial perhaps it might help you. You i think you do understand but here is the video
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11. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
JETalmage Sep 11, 2012 8:45 PM (in response to TCarp)Tom,
Assuming that your screenshot in Post 6 depicts five closed paths:
1. Black pointer: Select the five paths.
2. Object>Compound Path>Make.
3. Black pointer: Select the Compound Path. Position it as desired relative to the object(s) you want to mask. Make sure the Compound Path is frontmost. Select the object(s) you want to mask and the Compound Path.
4. Object>Clipping Path>Make.
In some cases, the fill will be swatches.
Illustrator's cumbersome interface automatically removes strokes and fills already applied to a path when you apply it as a clipping path. ("Clipping path" is the common generic term. Illustrator awkwardly calls them "Clipping Masks," thereby adding to newcomers' confusion with Transparency Masks.)
So it is fruitless to apply your desired normal fills and strokes to paths you are going to use as clipping paths beforehand. After applying them as clipping paths, use the white pointer to select an edge of the clipping path. Then apply normal fills and/or strokes.
Unfortunately, the U-Tube video tutorials I've looked at are not very helpful. They make an assumption about an understanding of the basics...
Don't wrongly take this as an insult:
To properly learn any software, you need to start with a thorough read of the provided documentation (even cumbersome as it has become in Adobe applications). And don't just read it. Work through the operations it describes, "front" to "back" in sequence of the table of contents. Then you'll be starting with a reasonable foundation of the program's basic operations, the naming of the commands and objects, and the general interface schema and "logic."
Stop looking for "shortcuts" through online "tutorials" (and even user forums). The vast majority are cases of "the blind leading the blind." What makes anyone assume that just because a user somewhere decides to post some silly "how to" online, he/she knows more about using the program properly than the beginners they target? It's like watching someone's clowny U-Tube videos in hopes of learning how to properly ride a dirt bike. It's like trying to learn math by randomly throwing darts at the textbook.
Am I saying they're all garbage? No. But the vast majority are poorly written, do not reliably abide by the terminology of the program, leave out steps, and do not depict best-practice anyway. So by definition, how is a serious beginner going to be able to discern the difference?
JET
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12. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
JETalmage Sep 11, 2012 9:11 PM (in response to TCarp)I'm assuming what you and JET are talking about is the difference between clipping masks and transparancy masks. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My post had nothing to do with Transparency Masks. For what you describe, an ordinary clipping path is by far the most common construct, dating back to the earliest days of vector drawing programs.
So-called "transparency" features (and their associated Transparency Masks) are comparitively recent constructs in vector drawing programs. At the basic level, you resort to Transparency Masks when you need something other than the sharp-edged "cutout" result of clipping paths.
Pretty much anything can be used as a Transparency Mask; meaning raster images as well as vector paths. So you can achieve "soft-edged" graduated fades to the background, and varying translucent effects. In the vast majority of cases, it does this by rasterizing the result.
And therein lies the rub. Raster "painting" and vector "drawing" programs used to maintain cleaner-cut functional distinctions. When programs like Illustrator started including "soft and fuzzy" effects beyond vector grads and blends, they started...well...blurring that distinction. You need to always be aware of when a program like Illustrator is resorting to creating raster images, be they "live" or not.
I dare say there exists a large population of Illustrator beginners who operate under the mistaken assumption that just because something is done in Illustrator it "is vector" and therefore has the resolution-independence advantages inherent in vector-based graphics.
So no, I was not in any way refering to Transparency Masks in my earlier posts in this thread.
JET
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13. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 12, 2012 5:47 PM (in response to JETalmage)JET,
I'm not insulted at all by the directions and comments. I still remember when I got "corrected" some time ago for using dpi and ppi interchangably.
I turn to the Adobe forums to get advice from those who have experience. I will spend time with the IL documentation.
Thanks
Tom
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14. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 13, 2012 6:07 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)Wade,
Thanks so much for the video. I realy appreciate you taking the time.
As I study what you and JET have posted, I've come to realize there are multiple ways to accomplish this task. I must admit with compound path, live trace, transparency masks, and clipping masks its confusing when to pick one over the other.
Learning the method is one thing, for which I am grateful. Learning when to use one technique over the other is something altogether different.
I come to the forums more to learn the latter than the former. As JET points out, the Adobe documentation is adequate to teach technique, although it's a bit difficult to follow at times.
For now, it looks like the compound path or the live trace will work. What I need to study is how the layers come into play.
Homework time.
Tom
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15. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 13, 2012 7:55 AM (in response to JETalmage)Illustrator's cumbersome interface automatically removes strokes and fills already applied to a path when you apply it as a clipping path. ("Clipping path" is the common generic term. Illustrator awkwardly calls them "Clipping Masks," thereby adding to newcomers' confusion with Transparency Masks.)
Very insigtful. As I've worked to understand all this the terminolgy gets in the way. Compound paths, clipping masks, transparacy masks, etc. are some examples.
There's a very basic concept that I need to "get". It has to do with the fact that there are layers involved. If there was an analogy (stencil, matte, etc.) that were available it might help but I think this is too comprehensive to rely on an analogy.
As I posted earlier, I come here more to learn the why's and when's as I do the hows.
Tom
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16. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 13, 2012 9:01 AM (in response to JETalmage)Sorry to keep posting but I'm learning and want to check as I go. Reading about compound path I'm seeing its more than just combining these separate polygons (in the logo). According to the Adobe help the intent is to punch a hole.
It appears the hole is created where the object overlap. I assume you used the CP technique to simply combine the 5 pologyons into one but, since there was no overlap, the other effect of CP (creating a hole) was irrelevant.
I also see in the documentation description of compound shape and pathfinder. Gives me something to study.
Tom
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17. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
TCarp Sep 14, 2012 8:16 AM (in response to JETalmage)Assuming that your screenshot in Post 6 depicts five closed paths:
1. Black pointer: Select the five paths.
2. Object>Compound Path>Make.
3. Black pointer: Select the Compound Path. Position it as desired relative to the object(s) you want to mask. Make sure the Compound Path is frontmost. Select the object(s) you want to mask and the Compound Path.
4. Object>Clipping Path>Make.
JET
Been going over this to master. Noticed in Wade's video he's using layers (logo on one, raster on another). Is there a reason to do things that way over just having the logo and raster on the same layer?
Also, since the image being clipped is raster, I'm assuming I've "lost" the benefit of the vector image in the sense that any resizing will have to consider what happens when a raster is resized(?). If all that's true, I'm assuming the best process is to get a raster with a high enough resolution to scale OK.
Am I getting it?
Tom
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18. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
tromboniator Sep 14, 2012 11:42 AM (in response to TCarp)("Clipping path" is the common generic term. Illustrator awkwardly calls them "Clipping Masks," thereby adding to newcomers' confusion with Transparency Masks.)
To confuse the issue further, we have Object > Clipping Mask > Make, yet the Layers Panel shows <Clipping Path>. In addition, according the documentation,
"The clipping mask and the objects that are masked are called a clipping set" yet the Layers panel shows <Group>. This indistinguishble (except that it contains a <Clipping Path>) from what is formed by Object > Group, but it cannot be Ungrouped.
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19. Re: Can you use multiple polygons as clipping mask?
JETalmage Sep 14, 2012 1:39 PM (in response to TCarp)JET...Noticed in Wade's video he's using layers...Is there a reason to do things that way over just having the logo and raster on the same layer?
Never assume here that just because you receive multiple responses, that those responses are in agreement. Suffice it to say I'm not going to try to explain Wade's posts.
Don't confuse yourself with Layers. Layers are nothing more than an organizational tool you can use if you want to. Beginners tend to assume there's some specific "proper" way to utilize Layers for every kind of construct they build. For example, they commonly assume Layers has something to do with color separations. (Do a search for "JET Layers" and you'll find other threads on this topic.)
All the Layers functionality does is put conceptual "brackets" around a set of objects that are adjacent in the overall object stack. (Conceptually, it's really not that much different from making a Group.) That allows you to shown/hide lock/unlock those objects at once, apply Effects to them collectively, etc., etc. But the use and arrangement of Layers is entirely up to you. If you and I were given the same illustration assignment, you'd almost certainly use one Layers arrangment for certain purposes, and I'd use another for a different set of reasons. In the end, the document is still just one big stack of individual objects, arranged in a particular z-order.
Generally speaking, in most projects I don't use Layers nearly to the detail extent that many users do. I use them when doing so provides a convenience (for selection & locking) or some organizational scheme that I want a recipient to understand (ex: die cuts or registration and printer marks on dedicated Layers) or for elaborate illustrations the nature of which just makes sense to work with as a stack of "overlays" (ex: complex maps or phantom cutaways). But it's quite common for me to have the entire illustration proper on a single Layer.
Also, since the image being clipped is raster, I'm assuming I've "lost" the benefit of the vector image...
The sharpness of the "cutout" of the raster image will be retained when scaled, because those edges are vector paths. It's possible for a vector clipping path to mask/reveal only a portion of a pixel. It's really just common sense. For example, try this thought experiment:
1. Create a one-pixel raster image. Scale it to 3" square. Now its PPI is one-third Pixel Per Inch.
2. Draw a 3" vector circle in front of it and center-aligned to it.
3. Select both and make a clipping path.
You've now got the functional equivalent of having just given the vector circle a solid fill. So long as you scale the clipping path and its contents together, you'll have as much "resolution independence" as if there were no raster image at all. But there is. The raster image is still there; it has just one honkin' huge square pixel. (A raster image can't have any shape other than rectangular.) But the corners of that one pixel are masked by a circular resolution-independent vector "edge." But if it were not just one pixel; if it were, for example, an array of 9 differently-colored pixels, then the square edges between those pixels which are visible within the vector clipping path circle would be increasingly evident, the larger you scaled it.
In other words, only the actual objects that are vector objects (the clipping path and any vector objects included in the content) will have resolution independence. None of the raster objects will.
So having sufficient raster "resolution" (really, scale) is just a matter of when (at what scale) the squareness of pixels becomes undesirably evident when viewed at the intended distance. A billboard doesn't really need any more pixels than the same image printed in a magazine ad, if the billboard is viewed from a distance that effectively makes it appear (visually "scale" to) the same "size" to the viewer as the magazine ad.
...I'm assuming the best process is to get a raster with a high enough resolution to scale OK.
It's really quite simple. Raster images are not resolution-independent. You always need a PPI scale factor appropriate for the intended use; the way the image will be viewed. It's not best practice to undersample a raster image. Most beginners know that. But most beginners never give a moment's thought to the fact that it's also not best practice to oversample a raster image. Undersampling risks pixelation. Oversampling risks blurring and lost contrast.
Most beginners--and I dare say most intermediates--habitually and grossly oversample their raster images, thinking they are "building in a safety margin."
JET









