11 Replies Latest reply on Sep 10, 2012 7:35 AM by Peter Spier

    What is the best way to get this chapter layout?

    Gerben Wierda Level 1

      I have a document that is  now one big flow of pages.

       

      However, there are 'chapters, in this 'book'. A 'chapter' in reality starts on the right page. But I want the left page to be involved in the design of the spread of the 'chapter' start. That means the left page before the actual 'chapter' start is reserved for layout stuff and any 'chapter' before it that would end on a left page, needs an empty right page inserted, after which the left page of the start-'chapter' spread follows.

       

      Now, I can make the left hand pages of the 'chapter' start start a section and by hand make that page number the correct even one. That will position it on the left side. But, when I add pages to the previous section, that means I have to change the beginning page numbers of all following sections by hand.

       

      Is there not a better way to achieve this? Some way that I do not have to worry about the page numbering myself while still getting the pre-page of the 'chapter' included in the section of that 'chapter'?

       

      (I write 'chapter' as these are not Id chpaters in an Id book, but just sections in a single Id document.)

        • 1. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          If the previous "chapter ends with an even-numbered (left hand) page, you add two pages, if it ends on the right you add one.

           

          Another way to accomplish this automatically is to set a Keep Option on the paragraph style you use for the first paragraph on the chapter start page so it will start the paragraph on next odd-number page.

          • 2. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
            Gerben Wierda Level 1

            I tried the keep option, but it got me the distorted master again (though differently than the previous time). I'll do it the manual way for now.

            • 3. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              There is something seriously wrong with that file. I can't tell you waht specifically is the cause, but I would be very nervous if it were mine, and I'd probably rebuild the whole thing. You can export the text to InDesign Tagged Text (place you cursor in a story, but don't make a selection, and tagged text should become one of the options inthe type dropdown in the export dialog). As long as you haven't mad a selection the entire story should be exported, otherwise only the text you select. It doesn't matter if you pick abrreviated or verbose in the next dialog. The tagged text can be placed in a new file (and will auto flow) just like any other text file, but will have all the formatting in place.

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              • 4. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                Gerben Wierda Level 1

                You're serious, aren't you? I just finished a long stint of getting all the text in the right sections ('chapters' in my book) and I already did a lot of the images. I'd have to redo all the styles, all the images, the master pages, everything. And I do not remember how I did everything that I did (like certain frames with ccertain coloured backgrounds with noise and such). So, I suspect it is going to cost me a lot of time (that I do not have, as this is the third product I am moving my project to, iBooks Author and Apple Pages were the first two). 

                 

                But I can understand it's probably the safest way to do it.

                 

                I am evaluating Id currently. A corrupted file like this doesn't give me a good feeling about the product (more like the unreliability of Microsoft Word).

                • 5. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Yes. I am serious. I'm worried that you may find you put in a lot more effort and suddenly the file fails catastrophically. At the very least you should be making regular backups by doing a save as to a new name after each editing session.

                   

                  I recommended the tagged text specifically because it will recreate all of your text styles when you import it into a new file. You can also load style from one document into another from the flyout menu in either the Character Styles or paragraph Styles panel, and you can do the same for object styles, if you have them, from the corresponding panel so you don't need to recereate them from scratch. In theory you could put the existing fiel and a new file into a Book and sychronize the styles and the master pages, but I would advise against it in this case as I suspect you have some sort of corruption in at least one master, so you should recreate those from scratch, and you don't need the book to do the styles, as I outlined above.

                   

                  I don't like to sound so discouraging, but you've obviously put a great deal of effort into what you have now and I don't want to see you come back nest week and tell us the file will no longer open, or that you can't export it to PDF. I'm a pragmatist, and I think a little extra work now for the peace of mind is well worth it.

                  • 6. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                    Gerben Wierda Level 1

                    What really worries me is your remark that this is a program that can produce files that 'fail catastrophically' at all. That sounds like something you should not hear about a program that is as pricey as this one. And it makes me wonder if it is a good idea to go on with ID. Though, my only remaining option is Quark, and that doesn't have a good press either, stability wise. Sigh.

                     

                    I'll do as you suggest and go on. But another such an adventure during the remainder of the trial will probably sink my project.

                    • 7. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      InDesign is actually the most stable layout program I've ever used, and files don't normally fail catastrophically, but every once in awhile we'll hear fom a user here on the forum with a project that has. Sometimes you see warning signs (and I don't know that your file is going to fail, but I know it isn't behaving the way it should), but not always.

                       

                      It's entirely possible that there's nothing really wrong other than some mistep you made early on that could be corrected, but experience tells me it will probably take as long, maybe longer, to track that down, if really is that simple, as it will to bite the bullet and move the content into a new document.

                      • 8. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                        Gerben Wierda Level 1

                        I getting into more trouble.

                         

                        I have created a new document, created new masters (I'll include my activity log). I included the first section that was saved as tagged text. That worked. Then I went on with the next chapter. That failed catastrophically. There were errors loading the tagged text, I logged them

                         

                        <Line No>:- 72 <Error>:- Nesting level of a tag exceeds the maximum level of allowed nesting. Maximum number of nesting allowed is 3. <Erroneous Text>:-Hyperlink:=

                        <Line No>:- 270 <Error>:- Nesting level of a tag exceeds the maximum level of allowed nesting. Maximum number of nesting allowed is 3. <Erroneous Text>:-BuildingBlock:=

                        and continued and got

                        Screen Shot 2012-09-10 at 10 September 11.06.11.png

                        I tried again after restarting and got the same. Here is my activity log:

                        Create a new document, facing pages, primary text flow

                         

                        Create a A-Master, copy graphics elements over from old document page master to new documents master

                         

                        Create B-Master, base it on A-Master

                         

                        Add text frame to right hand page of B-Master, make it  primary text flow

                         

                        Copy Graphics and Text frames over from B-Master in old document

                         

                        Removed Character Styles from document

                         

                        B-Master (Chapter Titles)

                        Left Chapter Title Page: 1 graphics frame, 2 text frames, no primary, specifally for chapter title layout

                        Right Chapter Title Page: 1 text frame. New paragraph style (Chapter Title) as first entry in text frame

                        Adapted paragraph styles. Chapter Title is now keep option: start on first free right hand page

                        Renamed Paragraph Styles so they do not conflict with coming tagged import

                        Detached and removed footer items on left hand side chapter title page

                         

                        Saved document. I have the masters I want now, or so it seems:

                         

                        Add B-Master spread to document

                        Add A-Master spread to document

                         

                        Try to edit primary text box on right hand page of Master-B spread. Seems not to work. Messing around a lot (which means that I will have to redo everything again). Turns out: oversized text. Which is strange as the text must easily fit.

                         

                        Conclusion: the Keep Option "keep paragraph on odd page" is playing up. Probably having to do with  the fact that B Master is based on A Master

                         

                        So, I copy/paste e few objects for safekeeping from B Master to teh pasteboard of A-Master and I remove B-Master

                         

                        I group a couple of graphical objects on A-master for easy copy to the new B-Master

                         

                        I create a new B-master based on none. I copy the grouped objects over, ungroup them and remove a few.

                         

                        I add a frame to the right hand page of the B-master and make it primary text flow.

                         

                        I cut and paste the objects on the A-Master pasteboard over to the B-master left hand page and position/arrange them

                         

                        I add a default text in the right hand page text frame. This works. I apply the chapter title paragraph style and I get the oversized text. I remove the Keep option (next odd page) from the style. I am not going to use keep option again.

                         

                        I create a new spread based on B-Master (chapter start) and one after it on A-Master (basic spread)

                         

                        I override the primary frame on the right hand page with Cmd-Click (shouldn't this happen automatically with a primary frame?)

                         

                        I edit all text frames, the primary on the rhs gets the chapter title in chapter title paragraph style. I may add numbering later.

                         

                        I set smart text flow preference to end of section

                         

                        I set the new chapter LHS page as start of section

                         

                        I drop the tagged text. After a bit of trouble (a new frame is created when I shift-click inside th ereceiving frame, I can click on the frames edge and get it pasted in the existing primary frame)

                         

                        Hmm, I forgot to make the text frames two-colum! Go back.

                         

                        Remove all created pages so far.

                         

                        Change A-Master text frames to 2-column

                         

                        Change B-Master rhs text frame to 2-column. Change Chapter Title paragraph style to span columns

                         

                        Save document

                         

                        Drop tagged text in first chapter and change text boxes for chapter title. Oversized text. Drop on next page. Works. This is not a lot of text so copy and paste a paragraph n-times to see if smart text reflow works. It works. Set lhs of chapter start to start of section.

                         

                        Save document.

                         

                        Add B-Master spread to document. Add A-master spread to document. Set B-master LHS to start of section.

                         

                        Override and change text frame blocks, like with previous chapter.

                         

                        Drop tagged text. Oops: error: problems with the tagged text. Save log:

                         

                        <Line No>:- 72 <Error>:- Nesting level of a tag exceeds the maximum level of allowed nesting. Maximum number of nesting allowed is 3. <Erroneous Text>:-Hyperlink:=

                        <Line No>:- 270 <Error>:- Nesting level of a tag exceeds the maximum level of allowed nesting. Maximum number of nesting allowed is 3. <Erroneous Text>:-BuildingBlock:=

                         

                        and continue. Id crashes

                        Another two hours lost and now stuck? What am I to do now?

                        • 9. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          I'm not sure where the problem is, but my instinct is it's in the Primary Text Frame (a new feature), rather than the masters themselves having a based-on heirarchy. I've never used the Primary Text Frame, and almost never use the older Master text frame (which is NOT the same, and may be what you've added manually).  For a traditional printed document neither is required for placing or flowing text, and the older master text frame tends to cause more trouble than it's worth when you add or remove pages.

                           

                          I also don't know waht to tell you about the nesting level error -- I've never seen that. Are your styles based on each other? Are you using a tree-like structure where there is a master style of some sort, and many styles based on that with minor differences, or a linear structure where style B is based on style A, style C is based on style B, and style D is based on style C?

                           

                          I think you need to show this file to someone with some real experience so they can go through it and try to identify the problems. I don't have time to do that for you this morning, but I can do it perhaps later today or tomorrow.

                          • 10. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                            Gerben Wierda Level 1

                            Peter, I'm willing to send some materials to a technician if I can be certain it does not go anywhere else (I think behavior like ID writing tagged text that it cannot read itself without crashing warrants an investigation). Just tell me how to send it.

                             

                            My personal instinct (for what it's worth) is that this latest crash has to do not with frames or masters, but with cross references. My guess is that there is a broken or circular cross reference in the tagged text file. I checked, and all the other tagged text files load without problems, but then again, the second one was the only one I had already put all the images and cross references in.

                             

                            My character styles are 5. One is 'basic character style' which sets the basic font. The others all depend on 'basic character style', so two deep. I have a few more paragraph styles, but the hierarchy is  not more than 3 deep (e.g. '[basic paragraph]' -> heading 1 -> heading 2). I can see what happens when I make my paragraph style hierarchy flat, export my tagged text again and see if it can be

                             

                            I was under the impression that "primary text frame" had something to do with being able to reflow text and with getting an overriden text frame automatically when you create new pages (either manually or by smart text reflow). Apparently I am misinformed.

                             

                            From a personal perspective: I also have problems with respect to available time and a looming deadline. I need to have this ready before the end of October and I have also only 21 days left in my trial evaluation and I'm doing this next to my day job so with limited time. In other words: I am using the Trial to try to do serious work in minimal time and when the trial runs out and I trust that this is going to work I will buy the application. Around that time, the content need not be complete, but the process of production must be reliable. The rest is just adding content.

                            • 11. Re: What is the best way to get this chapter layout?
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              I'll send you a link to my yousendit drop box. You can upload there if you like, and I'll take a look in confidence.

                               

                              Primary text frame does, indeed work with flowing text, but it's tied in, I think with the new alternate layouts features. There is no need for any sort of pre-existing frames to autoflow text as ID will create frames on the fly, along with new pages, as necessary. The automatically created frames will use the margins and column guides on your page.

                               

                              You should not need any character style to establish the basic font formatting. All formatting for text is handled first through the paragraph style that sets the formatting parameters for the entire paragraph. Character styles are used when the formatting for a particular bit of text within a paragraph needs to be different, so almost all text should have no character style assigned at all (e.g. [None]). I can't really offer specific advice without seeing the file itself.

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