16 Replies Latest reply on Oct 19, 2012 12:25 AM by Yammer

    DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker

    Thomas Geist Level 1

      I am trying to run the DNG Profile Editor over a few DNGs made from TIFFs (Color Checker shots).

      The reason is to create profiles by reverse applying the settings the Profile Editor generates out of these shots. I have read of some people successfully doing this.

       

      The problem I am having with this is that the Profile Editor pretty much refuses to recognize the color patches in the shots. If the four color circles are moved to the center of the four corner color patches I get the following warning:

      2012-09-14 02.46.42 pm.jpg

      If I move the circles to the corners it might sometimes work, but mostly not. What's wrong?

       

      DNGs created from the RAW files (Olympus OM-D) work with no problems and the color patches are recognized when the circles are centered.

        • 1. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I believe the reason you are having this problem is because, unfortunately, the DNG Profile Editor is able to detect that those DNG files made from TIF images don't contain raw image data. And the editor requires raw image data to work properly.

          • 2. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
            Thomas Geist Level 1

            I am sure you are basically right here. But what missing info that a DNG made from a RAW file has would help here?

             

            As I see it all that's needed is a geometrical mapping for the Profile Editor to recognize the individual patches.

             

            And I did get it working in some cases, however, the circular markers had to be positioned rather on the patches' edges or even outside. So it really looks like a geometrical issue.

            • 3. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              I will give this one more shot. But I'm not really technically savvy about the differences. From what I have read, I understand that part of the raw development process is that the image data goes through a process where it becomes demosaiced. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I can further explained that. But I think this is where the difference is. If I'm wasting your time, I apologize.

              • 4. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                sandy_mc Level 3

                I think that DNG Profile Editor is probably being a bit unhelpful about what the error is here.

                 

                The underlying problem is almost certainly that you really can't use a TIFF (or any other non-raw file) to create a camera profile because the profile editor has no way to know what processing has been applied to the raw data in order to create the TIFF. E.g., tone curves, etc. So even if profile editor created a profile from the TIFF, the profile wouldn't work at all well.

                 

                Sandy

                • 5. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                  Thomas Geist Level 1

                  I think I need to explain my intentions a bit more.

                   

                  I want to use a DNG generated from a TIFF to simulate a camera's own color rendition. I have an Olympus OM-D EM-5 and I really like the colors it produces in out-of-the-camera JPEGs (or the JPEG previews embedded in the RAW files. Or when I process the RAW files with Olympus' own RAW converter.

                   

                  Unfortunately Adobe only delivers one single profile with Lightroom and Adobe Camera RAW, the "Adobe Standard" profile. However, I much more prefer the Olympus colors, especially for skin tones. And I am not alone.

                   

                  I tried to accomplis this with tewaks in Lightroom and I even tried creating a profile from scratch, but this exceeds my capabilities (and those of Lightroom's Calibration tab).

                   

                  Therefore my last resort is the procedure I read someone else applied successfully and that I want to describe here step by step:

                   

                  - shoot a Color Checker chart in correct light

                  - open the RAW file in the manufacturer's RAW converter and (if necessary) set all the parameters that will give you the desired color rendition (most likely some "Picture Mode")

                  - save the image as a TIFF

                  - create a DNG from that TIFF (only Lightroom or Camera RAW will do this - the DNG Converter won't)

                  - open this DNG in the DNG Profile Editor

                  - set the Tone Curve to Linear

                  - let it create a color setting from that Color Checker chart

                  - write down the fader setting in the Color Table tab for each of the color patches (these are the settings that would bend the color rendition of the TIFF based DNG back to the Color Checker's original color values)

                  - create a DNG from the original RAW file

                  - load this into Profile Editor

                  - for each of the color patches apply the INVERTED settings that you wrote down earlier on (for instance if you wrote down +5, -3, 0 for a color patch, now apply -5, +3, 0) - these inverted values are the values that would bend the shot Color Checker colors towards the camera's JPEG color rendition

                  - generate the profile

                   

                  I have tried this approach earlier on and it seemed to work, however, the circular position points for the Color Checker chart had to be placed in odd positions. Alas, the shots I used were made under bad light. I reshot the Color Checker, this time in pure sunlight but I no longer had luck getting a Color Table generated - the warning I showed in my first post keeps appearing. Or another one that says that the values of a certain color patch is overexposed (however that Color Checker chart is exposed well).

                   

                  I hope this all makes some sense. It's my last hope to get the colors I really like. If you do a bit of research on the internet, you will see that there are many OM-D owners who do so too.

                  • 6. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                    JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    You can't do that! The DNG converter is designed specifically to work with DNG files that contain the original raw data that hasn't been demosaiced. Converting the DNG to TIF file destroys all the raw image data and cooks the settings into the file. If you want to create your own profiles then you will have to photograph the color checker and save to a raw file, create a DNG copy of that raw file, and use that DNG file to create your profile. That's the way it works. I understand the you want to do it from the TIF image, but it won't work. As you have said, it has seemed to work for you occasionally. But the results won't be accurate or dependable. Sorry, that's just the way the system works.

                     

                    Just one other question. Why do you find it necessary (in your case) to save the image as a TIF and use that file to create the profile. The profiles are only good on raw images, and that's why you need raw image data to create the profile and the first place.

                    • 7. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                      Thomas Geist Level 1

                      I hope you saw the part in my last post that I AM actually using a DNG file made from the RAW file to create the final profile.

                       

                      I am only using the DNG made from the TIFF to read the values that Profile editor applies to that file.

                      I am saving out that TIFF to explicitly have the Olympus color rendition that baked into that file.

                       

                      A quick example:

                      Say the camera's JPEGs would show extremely saturated reds that all seem to have a more orange tint. And say I'd really like that and wanted a profile in LR that shows the same behavior.

                       

                      Now I save a RAW file from that camera in the manufacturer's RAW converter as a TIFF. That TIFF would of course show these saturated orange-ish reds.

                       

                      So I make a DNG from this Color Checker TIFF and load it into Profile Editor.

                      I let Profile Editor make a Color Table from that TIFF.

                       

                      Profile Editor would desaturate the reds and shift them towards a purple tint. These settings (a negative hue and a negative saturation in that case) I write down.

                       

                      I assume that these values represent the difference in hue and saturation between the camera's own reds and the Color Checker's true reds.

                       

                      Eventually I apply these values in inverted form to a DNG file I actually did create from a RAW file: a positive hue and saturation value will shift the reds towards orange and increase saturation.

                       

                      That's the plan.

                       

                      I would HAPPILY forgo all this if a) Adobe would supply a profile that was very close to the colors the OM-D produces or b) I had the skills to create a good profile from scratch.

                       

                      But visually comparing the Color Checker patches and adjusting accordingly - I never had success with that.

                      • 8. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                        JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Yes, I saw your post, but you still don't understand. A TIF file, converted to DNG, does not create a file that contains raw image data. You cannot "uncook" the TIF data any more than you can uncook food. You can argue all you want, and your method won't work. It just won't. In order to create a valid camera profile, you have to work with raw image data. And a DNG file created from a TIF image DOESN'T contain raw image data. The DNG file you have created is nothing more than a TIF with a different file extension. I won't respond in this thread again because you have been told by me and another person that your method won't work. If you want to try to make it work, that is certainly your prerogative. But don't come here looking for answers about how to do it because there isn't an answer.

                        • 9. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                          b2martin_a Level 2

                          Have you looked to see if anyone will generate you a Camera Matching DNG Profile?  I have seen post on pskiss.com for cross camera matching profiles, but don't know if they would generate camera matching profiles - might be worth asking them. 

                          • 10. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                            Thomas Geist Level 1

                            Have't seen any of those yet.

                            However, I found the reason the problem I had inherently - the Profile Editor not being able to match the position circles. It obviously was a problem with contrast and/or color in the Color Checker shots done in full sunlight. I repeated the shots under overcast skies (which is closer to the 6200 K color temperature anyway) and this time it worked.

                             

                            Jim Hess however is right, the inverese matching eventually doesn't work. I can create profiles and the gerneral direction of most corrections is ok. But the overall profiles are off to far.

                             

                            My current (and unfortunately very time consuming) approach now is to visually match colors and create profiles that way.

                            One of the problems in Profile Editor I noticed is that its hue shifts seem to impact a pretty narrow hue band therefore not shifting a whole color patch's hue but only a fragment of the pixels within. Some of the pixels seem too far off hue-wise and don't get shifted and you end up with a color mosaic in the patch making it hard to determine where you really are.

                            • 11. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                              One of the limitations of DNG Profile Editor at present is that it doesn't do lightness-dependent color edits.  If you're trying to match the vendor "look" that is sometimes essential (e.g., they make take "lighter" reds and make them warmer, while making "darker" reds cooler).  The DNG PE builds tables that are 2.5D only, i.e., indexed by hue and saturation only.

                              • 12. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                                Thomas Geist Level 1

                                Eric, thank you for your clarification!

                                 

                                I am really curious to know what tools you use to build profiles. They seem way more advanced that what PE does.

                                 

                                And what procedures would you recommend for us the users to get a "vendor" look?

                                 

                                Thanks again!

                                • 13. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                                  MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                  Hi Thomas,

                                   

                                  Unfortunately I can't go into details about the tools we use to build the profiles.  I wish I could help more.  Sorry. 

                                   

                                  Eric

                                  • 14. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                                    deejjjaaaa Level 2

                                    >>> I am really curious to know what tools you use to build profiles.

                                     

                                    it is alleged that serious people are illuminating the sensor in camera using monochromator ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochromator ) in for example 5-10nm increments for a start.

                                    • 15. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                                      deejjjaaaa Level 2

                                      > for us the users to get a "vendor" look?

                                       

                                      http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/142328.html

                                       

                                      get a target, illuminate properly, shoot RAW+JPG... JPG shall give you a vendor look (JPG you can convert to TIFF), RAW + some  sufficiently neutral ACR settings the source for profile generation (to be used with PS, not with ACR)

                                      • 16. Re: DNG Profile Editor can't find color fields in Color Checker
                                        Yammer Level 4

                                        I've just spent an evening experimenting with DNG Profile Editor. I made a spreadsheet of the sets of 18 HSL shifts I made from a CC24 chart, since DNGPE was first released. My initial observations were:

                                         

                                        The hue shifts are pretty constant across all occasions and versions, with small variations (+/-1).

                                         

                                        The saturation shifts have a much larger variance (+/-5), and the latest version of the software's readings look significantly different from previous versions, with spikes on light skin, turquoise, and with dips on purple, foliage and green. 1.0.4 seems to produce a much wider range of saturation shifts.

                                         

                                        As in previous versions, lightness values appear to be all zero. I hadn't noticed this before. You say here ...

                                         

                                        MadManChan2000 wrote:

                                         

                                        One of the limitations of DNG Profile Editor at present is that it doesn't do lightness-dependent color edits.  If you're trying to match the vendor "look" that is sometimes essential (e.g., they make take "lighter" reds and make them warmer, while making "darker" reds cooler).  The DNG PE builds tables that are 2.5D only, i.e., indexed by hue and saturation only.

                                         

                                        So, in practice, does this mean that Lightness values are not used, or can we change them manually? ... and are they then actually used to generate the profile? Is the idea that we make Lightness adjustments visually? Or is it currently just a vestigial attachment?