23 Replies Latest reply on Sep 20, 2012 5:27 AM by rob day

    problem with offset settings CS5

    hugonot

      I have got a large indesign CS5 (Win) document with many photos linked (all in RGB).

      How should I prepare pdf for offset?

      I am not sure the RGB-> CMYK conversion. If I can used conversion from Indesign which settings shoudl I choose.

      I tried Pdf/X-1a 2001 but I am not sure about quality of phaotos and conversion RGB-> CMYK, apart of this text in

      such a pdf is not sharp, seems pixelised.

      Could you help me to solve this problem?

      Is there any difference between external RGB->CMYK conversion with photoshop and those automatic from Indesign?offset, pdf

      Please help

        • 1. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Converting during export in ID is the same as converting in Photoshop if you stop after changing the color mode. If you do more tweaking to imporve the reults in Photoshop, then you should do it in Photoshop because you lose that opportunity using the conversion during export method.

           

          There are too many variables to really answer what settings to use during export. The correct choice depends on the printer, and you should ask them. If you don't know where this will be printed, PDF/X-4 might be a good choice. It leave the colors unchanged and embeds all of the profiles so the printer can do the conversions on their end, but not all printers are able to work with PDF/X-4.

          • 2. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
            hugonot Level 1

            Thank you very much for reply!

            Let me ask if I will use PDF-X/4 I will not have got any RGB-> CMYK conversion.

            I do not understand why using PDF-X/4 I have got some fonts rasterised - looks badly.

            I use Flattening transparent artworkhttp://help.adobe.com/en_US/indesign/cs/using/WSa285fff53dea4f8617383751001ea8cb3f-6ea7a.h tmlsettings high.

            It will be enough use profile for conversion RGB->CMYK but not include profiles - i.e.

            without pdf/X (standard pdf none)? In this case fonts looks correctly.

            • 3. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              PDF/X-4 neither converts the colors nor flattens transparency. I'm not sure why your fonts would look rasterized.

               

              It's OK to use a cnaversion to CMYK and not to include profiles, but only if you know in advance what the correct CMYK color space will be. You want to avoid CMYK > CMYK conversions.

              • 4. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                hugonot Level 1

                Thanks a lot. I would like to have colors converted from RGB->CMYK and transparency not flattened

                This strange fonts (MinionPro) rasterisation appears also when pdf is printed out from Adobe Illustrator.

                it is strange that without pdf/X it works OK, with not...

                • 5. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Opening a PDF in Illustrator is not necessarily a way to view or print it, especially if it was made in ID. Use Acrobat, or Reader.

                  • 6. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                    hugonot Level 1

                    Thanks but when I prepare pdf from Indesign and the fonts are rasterised.

                    I prepare another project and create pdf from Illustrator and the fonts are also rasterised.

                    The same problem with rasterized fonts appear in Indesin and Illustrator, may be it is a tip how to solve it but I have no idea

                    • 7. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Sounds like it might actually be a problem with the font. Have you checked in Find Font to be sure all of the fonts are there?

                       

                      Are you using Mac or PC?

                      • 8. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                        hugonot Level 1

                        I have got PC Win 7 Indesign CS 5, Hm where is Find Font ?

                        • 9. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          Type > Find Font...

                           

                          Font corruption on Windows is not unknown, but it is pretty rare. Are there other fonts in use in the file that DON'T show the rasterization?

                          • 10. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                            hugonot Level 1

                            as far as I see the other fonts are correct

                            Find Fonts - everything is correct no fonts missed/lost

                            • 11. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              I'd be inclined to reinstall the Minion Pro from the font files included in the Installer package.

                              • 12. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                hugonot Level 1

                                Thanks a lot, Let me ask how to do it? Add them in Windows Font manager will be enough?

                                Or should I reinstall them with Adobe installer?

                                • 13. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Should be enough to locate them inthe installer package, then use Windows to install them from a Right-click.

                                  • 14. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    It wouldn't hurt, too, usw Windows to search for all adobefnt*.lst files  and delete those where the * is a two digit number. They get rebuilt automatically when needed.

                                    • 15. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Let me ask if I will use PDF-X/4 I will not have got any RGB-> CMYK conversion.

                                       

                                      The default PDF/X-4 preset makes no color conversions, but you can convert everything to a CMYK space and still have a PDF/X-4 that will pass X-4 compliance in Acrobat's preflight.

                                       

                                      Screen shot 2012-09-15 at 1.20.32 PM.png

                                       

                                       

                                      I do not understand why using PDF-X/4 I have got some fonts rasterised - looks badly.

                                      I use Flattening transparent artwork settings high.

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                      You can't flatten transparency and still export a PDF that meets the X-4 standard, so if you can choose a flattener preset in the Advanced tab (it's not grayed out), then you're no longer exporting a PDF/X-4

                                       

                                       

                                      Screen shot 2012-09-15 at 1.20.41 PM.png

                                       

                                      Even though the preset name hasn't changed this would not export a valid PDF/X-4

                                       

                                      Screen shot 2012-09-15 at 3.54.41 PM.png

                                      • 16. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                        hugonot Level 1

                                        Thanks a lot but I have got CS5 anf PDF/X-4:2008 available. No PDF/X-4:2010

                                        Let me ask which profile RGB>CMYK will be the best for gloss paper, Heidelberg machines.

                                        Fogra27 will be OK?

                                        Printer did not answered to my questions but deadline for submission is today

                                        • 17. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          PDF/X-4:2008 available. No PDF/X-4:2010

                                           

                                          There's little difference, see this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/838266

                                           

                                          One thing to note about PDF/X-4 is that all color is profiled. So if you export to PDF/X-4 and convert everything to Fogra27 CMYK, all of the CMYK objects will have the Fogra27 profile. If your printer outputs to a different profile, something like US SWOP, all of your CMYK will get reconverted. If that's the case you'd be better off not not converting to CMYK on export and leaving it to the printer.

                                           

                                          If the printer is requires you to deliver all CMYK color then PDF/X-1a is better because no profiles are included—your CMYK values will be output with no further conversions.

                                          • 18. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                            Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                            Rob Day wrote:

                                             

                                            If the printer is requires you to deliver all CMYK color then PDF/X-1a is better because no profiles are included—your CMYK values will be output with no further conversions.

                                             

                                            That is a very poor assumption to make! PDF/X-1a may in fact include a profile, but definitely specifies a color printing condition. There is nothing that prevents a printer with a PDF/X-1a workflow to do a CMYK=>C'M'Y'K' conversion if they believe that the specified printing condition doesn't match their actual printing condition. Check directly with a printer's technical folks (not the CSRs, many of whom won't know what you are talking about) if you have any doubts about the workflow and any conversions that may or may not occur.

                                             

                                                      - Dov

                                            • 19. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              PDF/X-1a may in fact include a profile

                                               

                                              How would I do that without changing the Standard to None? Isn't there a difference between an Output Intent and a Profile? If I export a PDF/X-1a and place it back into ID there's no profile—at least the placed CMYK values remain unchanged no matter what the document profile is.

                                               

                                              Screen shot 2012-09-19 at 7.34.33 AM.png

                                              There is nothing that prevents a printer with a PDF/X-1a workflow to do a CMYK=>C'M'Y'K' conversion if they believe that the specified printing condition doesn't match their actual printing condition.

                                               

                                              I understand that, but there are printers who still request all CMYK usually because they don't want any kind of conversion on their end good or bad—they are not likely to force a conversion. Note that the OP's printer in unresponsive regarding profiles.

                                              • 20. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                                Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                                                Dov Isaacs wrote: PDF/X-1a may in fact include a profile, but definitely specifies a color printing condition.

                                                In your statement, should "may not" be used instead of "may"?

                                                • 21. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                                  Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                  Jeffrey_Smith wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Dov Isaacs wrote: PDF/X-1a may in fact include a profile, but definitely specifies a color printing condition.

                                                  In your statement, should "may not" be used instead of "may"?

                                                   

                                                  No, I meant exactly what I wrote. PDF/X-1a files may include an ICC color profile. In fact, Adobe applications that output PDF/X-1a, such as InDesign, always embed an ICC output intent profile. It doesn't give you a choice on this.

                                                   

                                                            - Dov

                                                  • 22. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                                    Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                    Rob Day wrote:

                                                     

                                                    PDF/X-1a may in fact include a profile

                                                     

                                                    How would I do that without changing the Standard to None? Isn't there a difference between an Output Intent and a Profile? If I export a PDF/X-1a and place it back into ID there's no profile—at least the placed CMYK values remain unchanged no matter what the document profile is.

                                                     

                                                    You are hitting upon a very sensitive issue.

                                                     

                                                    All PDF/X files, including PDF/X-1a, PDF/X-3, and PDF/X-4, exported from InDesign or saved from Illustrator or Photoshop, indeed have ouput intent profiles embedded in the PDF. Typically, this is a CMYK profile that describes the color space associated with the DeviceCMYK colors in the PDF file which are typically the CMYK colors in your InDesign document that match the working CMYK color space of your document. (For PDF/X-4 and InDesign 8.0, grayscale profiles allow conversion of color to DeviceGray PDF per the specified gray profile.

                                                     

                                                    HOWEVER, InDesign does not yet do anything with the ouput intent profile for placed PDF/X files. Thus, if the working CMYK color space for your InDesign document is SWOP, but you place a PDF/X file that has a output intent profile of FOGRA (which is a very different CMYK color space), InDesign ignores that output intent profile and treats all the DeviceCMYK objects in the placed PDF/X as if they were SWOP with no conversion whatsoever. On the other hand, if you were placing a PDF/X-4 file into InDesign and there were indeed CMYK objects in that file that were of a different color space than that of the output intent color space (requiring those CMYK profiles also be embedded in the PDF/X-4 file, but not as the ouput intent profile), the color spaces of those objects and their output profiles would indeed be retained in the InDesign document and in that case, such CMYK objects would either be converted to the output intent color space, placed as is with profiles, or placed without conversion or profile into the exported PDF file, depending upon the PDF/X format chosen and color conversion options selected. Hopefully in some future InDesign release, I can get this shortcoming resolved!! By the way, if there was ever a good reason to insist upon maintaining original artwork in its original RGB color space (along with an embedded profile), this is it!

                                                     

                                                    Clear as CMYK mud, huh? 

                                                     

                                                              - Dov

                                                    • 23. Re: problem with offset settings CS5
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      If I make a page with a frame filled with a color where it's easy to spot a conversion—something like 0/0/10/50—and export it as PDF/X-1a, AcrobatX's preflight tells me the profile is DeviceCMYK not the Fogra27 Output Intent Profile I exported.

                                                       

                                                      If I open Acrobat's Output Preview, the default Simulation Profile is the output intent profile and the gray shows the same 0/0/10/50 separation as in ID. If I change the Simulation Profile to US Sheetfed the separation panel does not show a conversion—I still get 0/0/10/50.

                                                       

                                                      If I  print separations to the different destination profiles the results match the Output Preview, in both cases the cyan and magenta plates are blank. I don't see anyway to force a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion from the Print dialog.

                                                       

                                                      AcrobatScreenSnapz001.png

                                                       

                                                      AcrobatScreenSnapz002.png

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      If I export the page again and include a destination profile rather than an output intent (by setting the Standard to None) I get very different results.

                                                       

                                                      Preflight shows Fogra as the profile. In this case the Output Preview simulation defaults to my Acrobat working CMYK space and I get a conversion (because it is not Fogra). If I select Fogra as the simulation there's no conversion, which is what I expect. Again my printed separations match the simulations—by default I get a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion.

                                                       

                                                      AcrobatScreenSnapz003.png

                                                       

                                                      AcrobatScreenSnapz004.png