13 Replies Latest reply on Oct 4, 2012 3:10 PM by bunny-burning

    Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening


      Hi everybody,

      I'm having big trouble since CS6 and I couldnt find andy help anywhere, thats why i have to ask here.


      Problem discription:

      Opening an 7gb 8bit psb file in PS CS6 64bit: PS opens the file and crashes immediately after showing the content (layers and image). an small error message is shown (but there is no description)

      Sometimes it opens the file, and i can work in it, and when i try to save it (in background AND normal), PS just disappears without error message


      My work around: If i open another small jpg first (in first tab) and then open the big psb, i dont get this problem. but actually i never had it open for very long since im kinda scared to put some work into this unstable system.


      When doing this in PS CS6 32bit version, its pretty stable and i have no crash.


      Funny thing is also, that one time I created a big file from like 20big tiffs in 16bit and could save it. All the time PS was running while creating stuff from scratch i didnt crashed. But after I saved the file and restarted PS, then he couldnt handle the file anymore and crashed like i said before.



      Any help would be much appreciated!

      Thank you,





      System infos:

      PS, latest version!

      win7 64bit, 24gb ram, i7 920

      single nvidia 260 gtx, used with different driver versions too

      my work hdd is an 1tb RAID 1, where i have scratch disc and my workfiles, plenty of space

      had this problem snce the begin, also without plugins

      working on dual screens (27" with 2560x1440 and the other one in 1200x1900)

      no other software running




      Adobe Photoshop Version: 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00) x64

      Operating System: Windows 7 64-bit

      Version: 6.1

      System architecture: Intel CPU Family:6, Model:10, Stepping:5 with MMX, SSE Integer, SSE FP, SSE2, SSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, HyperThreading

      Physical processor count: 4

      Logical processor count: 8

      Processor speed: 3300 MHz

      Built-in memory: 24566 MB

      Free memory: 21764 MB

      Memory available to Photoshop: 22241 MB

      Memory used by Photoshop: 94 %

      Image tile size: 128K

      Image cache levels: 4

      OpenGL Drawing: Enabled.

      OpenGL Drawing Mode: Advanced

      OpenGL Allow Normal Mode: True.

      OpenGL Allow Advanced Mode: True.

      OpenGL Allow Old GPUs: Not Detected.

      Video Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

      Video Card Renderer: GeForce GTX 260/PCI/SSE2

      Display: 2

      Display Bounds:=  top: 0, left: 2560, bottom: 1920, right: 3760

      Display: 1

      Display Bounds:=  top: 0, left: 0, bottom: 1440, right: 2560

      Video Card Number: 1

      Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260

      OpenCL Unavailable

      Driver Version:

      Driver Date: 20110520000000.000000-000

      Video Card Driver: nvd3dumx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvd3dum,nvwgf2um,nvwgf2um

      Video Mode: 2560 x 1440 x 4294967296 colors

      Video Card Caption: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260

      Video Card Memory: 896 MB

      Video Rect Texture Size: 8192

      Serial number: 92298643689928754717

      Application folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS6 (64 Bit)\

      Temporary file path: C:\Users\stef\AppData\Local\Temp\

      Photoshop scratch has async I/O enabled

      Scratch volume(s):

        D:\, 931.5G, 880.2G free

      Required Plug-ins folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS6 (64 Bit)\Required\

      Primary Plug-ins folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CS6 (64 Bit)\Plug-ins\

      Additional Plug-ins folder: not set


      Installed components:

         A3DLIBS.dll   A3DLIB Dynamic Link Library  

         ACE.dll   ACE 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         adbeape.dll   Adobe APE 2012/01/25-10:04:55   66.1025012   66.1025012

         AdobeLinguistic.dll   Adobe Linguisitc Library   6.0.0  

         AdobeOwl.dll   Adobe Owl 2012/06/26-12:17:19   4.0.95   66.510504

         AdobePDFL.dll   PDFL 2011/12/12-16:12:37   66.419471   66.419471

         AdobePIP.dll   Adobe Product Improvement Program  

         AdobeXMP.dll   Adobe XMP Core 2012/02/06-14:56:27   66.145661   66.145661

         AdobeXMPFiles.dll   Adobe XMP Files 2012/02/06-14:56:27   66.145661   66.145661

         AdobeXMPScript.dll   Adobe XMP Script 2012/02/06-14:56:27   66.145661   66.145661

         adobe_caps.dll   Adobe CAPS   6,0,29,0  

         AGM.dll   AGM 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         ahclient.dll    AdobeHelp Dynamic Link Library   1,7,0,56  

         aif_core.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         aif_ocl.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         aif_ogl.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         amtlib.dll   AMTLib (64 Bit) (BuildVersion: 6.0; BuildDate: Mon Jan 16 2012 18:00:00)   1.000000

         ARE.dll   ARE 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         AXE8SharedExpat.dll   AXE8SharedExpat 2011/12/16-15:10:49   66.26830   66.26830

         AXEDOMCore.dll   AXEDOMCore 2011/12/16-15:10:49   66.26830   66.26830

         Bib.dll   BIB 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         BIBUtils.dll   BIBUtils 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         boost_date_time.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         boost_signals.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         boost_system.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         boost_threads.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         cg.dll   NVIDIA Cg Runtime   3.0.00007  

         cgGL.dll   NVIDIA Cg Runtime   3.0.00007  

         CIT.dll   Adobe CIT

         CoolType.dll   CoolType 2012/06/05-15:16:32   66.507768   66.507768

         data_flow.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         dvaaudiodevice.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvacore.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvamarshal.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvamediatypes.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvaplayer.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvatransport.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dvaunittesting.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         dynamiclink.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         ExtendScript.dll   ExtendScript 2011/12/14-15:08:46   66.490082   66.490082

         FileInfo.dll   Adobe XMP FileInfo 2012/01/17-15:11:19   66.145433   66.145433

         filter_graph.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         hydra_filters.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         icucnv40.dll   International Components for Unicode 2011/11/15-16:30:22    Build gtlib_3.0.16615  

         icudt40.dll   International Components for Unicode 2011/11/15-16:30:22    Build gtlib_3.0.16615  

         image_compiler.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         image_flow.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         image_runtime.dll   AIF   3.0   62.490293

         JP2KLib.dll   JP2KLib 2011/12/12-16:12:37   66.236923   66.236923

         libifcoremd.dll   Intel(r) Visual Fortran Compiler   10.0 (Update A)  

         libmmd.dll   Intel(r) C Compiler, Intel(r) C++ Compiler, Intel(r) Fortran Compiler   10.0  

         LogSession.dll   LogSession  

         mediacoreif.dll   DVA Product   6.0.0  

         MPS.dll   MPS 2012/02/03-10:33:13   66.495174   66.495174

         msvcm80.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2005   8.00.50727.6195  

         msvcm90.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2008   9.00.30729.1  

         msvcp100.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2010   10.00.40219.1  

         msvcp80.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2005   8.00.50727.6195  

         msvcp90.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2008   9.00.30729.1  

         msvcr100.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2010   10.00.40219.1  

         msvcr80.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2005   8.00.50727.6195  

         msvcr90.dll   Microsoft® Visual Studio® 2008   9.00.30729.1  

         pdfsettings.dll   Adobe PDFSettings   1.04  

         Photoshop.dll   Adobe Photoshop CS6   CS6  

         Plugin.dll   Adobe Photoshop CS6   CS6  

         PlugPlug.dll   Adobe(R) CSXS PlugPlug Standard Dll (64 bit)  

         PSArt.dll   Adobe Photoshop CS6   CS6  

         PSViews.dll   Adobe Photoshop CS6   CS6  

         SCCore.dll   ScCore 2011/12/14-15:08:46   66.490082   66.490082

         ScriptUIFlex.dll   ScriptUIFlex 2011/12/14-15:08:46   66.490082   66.490082

         tbb.dll   Intel(R) Threading Building Blocks for Windows   3, 0, 2010, 0406  

         tbbmalloc.dll   Intel(R) Threading Building Blocks for Windows   3, 0, 2010, 0406  

         TfFontMgr.dll   FontMgr  

         TfKernel.dll   Kernel  

         TFKGEOM.dll   Kernel Geom  

         TFUGEOM.dll   Adobe, UGeom©  

         updaternotifications.dll   Adobe Updater Notifications Library (BuildVersion: 1.0; BuildDate: BUILDDATETIME)

         WRServices.dll   WRServices Friday January 27 2012 13:22:12   Build 0.17112   0.17112

         wu3d.dll   U3D Writer  



      Required plug-ins:


         3D Studio 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Accented Edges 13.0

         Adaptive Wide Angle 13.0

         ADM 3.11x01

         Angled Strokes 13.0

         Average 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Bas Relief 13.0

         BMP 13.0

         Chalk & Charcoal 13.0

         Charcoal 13.0

         Chrome 13.0

         Cineon 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Clouds 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Collada 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Color Halftone 13.0

         Colored Pencil 13.0

         CompuServe GIF 13.0

         Conté Crayon 13.0

         Craquelure 13.0

         Crop and Straighten Photos 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Crop and Straighten Photos Filter 13.0

         Crosshatch 13.0

         Crystallize 13.0

         Cutout 13.0

         Dark Strokes 13.0

         De-Interlace 13.0

         Dicom 13.0

         Difference Clouds 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Diffuse Glow 13.0

         Displace 13.0

         Dry Brush 13.0

         Eazel Acquire 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Embed Watermark 4.0

         Entropy 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Extrude 13.0

         FastCore Routines 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Fibers 13.0

         Film Grain 13.0

         Filter Gallery 13.0

         Flash 3D 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Fresco 13.0

         Glass 13.0

         Glowing Edges 13.0

         Google Earth 4 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Grain 13.0

         Graphic Pen 13.0

         Halftone Pattern 13.0

         HDRMergeUI 13.0

         IFF Format 13.0

         Ink Outlines 13.0

         JPEG 2000 13.0

         Kurtosis 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Lens Blur 13.0

         Lens Correction 13.0

         Lens Flare 13.0

         Liquify 13.0

         Matlab Operation 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Maximum 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Mean 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Measurement Core 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Median 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Mezzotint 13.0

         Minimum 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         MMXCore Routines 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Mosaic Tiles 13.0

         Multiprocessor Support 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Neon Glow 13.0

         Note Paper 13.0

         NTSC Colors 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Ocean Ripple 13.0

         Oil Paint 13.0

         OpenEXR 13.0

         Paint Daubs 13.0

         Palette Knife 13.0

         Patchwork 13.0

         Paths to Illustrator 13.0

         PCX 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Photocopy 13.0

         Photoshop 3D Engine 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Picture Package Filter 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Pinch 13.0

         Pixar 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Plaster 13.0

         Plastic Wrap 13.0

         PNG 13.0

         Pointillize 13.0

         Polar Coordinates 13.0

         Portable Bit Map 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Poster Edges 13.0

         Radial Blur 13.0

         Radiance 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Range 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Read Watermark 4.0

         Reticulation 13.0

         Ripple 13.0

         Rough Pastels 13.0

         Save for Web 13.0

         ScriptingSupport 13.0.1

         Shear 13.0

         Silver Efex Pro 2 2,004

         Silver Efex Pro 2 2,004

         Skewness 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Smart Blur 13.0

         Smudge Stick 13.0

         Solarize 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Spatter 13.0

         Spherize 13.0

         Sponge 13.0

         Sprayed Strokes 13.0

         Stained Glass 13.0

         Stamp 13.0

         Standard Deviation 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Sumi-e 13.0

         Summation 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Targa 13.0

         Texturizer 13.0

         Tiles 13.0

         Torn Edges 13.0

         Twirl 13.0

         U3D 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Underpainting 13.0

         Vanishing Point 13.0

         Variance 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Variations 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Water Paper 13.0

         Watercolor 13.0

         Wave 13.0

         Wavefront|OBJ 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         WIA Support 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         Wind 13.0

         Wireless Bitmap 13.0.1 (13.0.1 20120808.r.519 2012/08/08:21:00:00)

         ZigZag 13.0


      Optional and third party plug-ins:


         Alien Skin Autolayer 4 4.0.0

         BackgroundFilter NO VERSION

         Camera Raw 7.1

         Color Efex Pro 4 NO VERSION

         Color Efex Pro 4 NO VERSION

         Dfine 2.0 NO VERSION

         Exposure 4 4.0.0

         FineStructuresFilter NO VERSION

         HotPixelsFilter NO VERSION

         Knoll Light Factory 3.1

         Nik Selective Tool

         ShadowsFilter NO VERSION

         Sharpener Pro 3.0: (1) RAW Presharpener

         Sharpener Pro 3.0: (2) Output Sharpener

         SkinFilter NO VERSION

         SkyFilter NO VERSION

         StrongNoiseFilter NO VERSION

      Plug-ins that failed to load: NONE


         Mini Bridge


      Installed TWAIN devices: NONE





        • 1. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
          Level 7

          We really need to know the name of the faulting module to have any idea why it is crashing.


          But first, go update that video card driver from NVidia's website.


          You can also try disabling your third party plugins.

          • 2. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
            bunny-burning Level 1


            how can i find out the name of the faulting module?

            is there a log or something?


            updating drivers right now...

            • 3. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
              bunny-burning Level 1

              So, I disabled the plugins and updated the gpu drivers.

              Its not crashing at the beginning anymore (for now). But while handling the large 16bit file (11gb) which i reduced to 8bit (what he also did without crashing) i tried to save it, and thats where PS crashed again.

              just vanishing. no error, nothing

              • 4. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                bunny-burning Level 1

                Nevermind what i said, now its crashing again right after opening different psb's.

                Nothing has changed!

                • 5. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                  bmoag Level 1

                  I have issues with PS CS6 and much smaller program files (less than 100mbs) but your problems may have less to do with programming bugs, many though there be, in PS CS6, than basic computer/OS issues.

                  Your files are so large (7gbs?) that you may be incurring problems with memory handling on your system due to hardware issues, OS issues or both.

                  In the real world most motherboards cannot stably use more than 16gbs of memory. Try removing RAM down to 16gbs and see if that improves stability. Google that if you do not believe me. You will not lose any performance, any may actually gain stability, going to dual channel memory using two instead of three slots.

                  Run a memory diagnostic, a complete version that may take several hours to run, to see if any of your RAM is defective. Before doing that make sure all your RAM modules are properly seated in their slots.

                  Install a second hard drive, offload as many files as you can to it and defragment your main hard drive (defragment it no matter what it reports about fragmentation).

                  In truth in the real world neither Windows or Mac OSancient can use more than 8gbs RAM--and motherboards rarely are stable with more than 16gbs of installed RAM-- so contiguous hard drive space remains important, particularly for very large files. Also regardless of how much hardware RAM you have Windows will preferentially default to the hard drive for virtual memory for some routine processes. If all your RAM is functioning well you may want to completely turn off virtual memory in Windows but overall machine stability may be problematic. Fortunately, unlike Photoshop, Windows will run stably with virutal memory on a secondary hard drive.

                  You have way too much RAM. Most studies show that Photoshop performance does not change once you get past just 4gbs of RAM, regardless of whether the OS or program is 32 or 64 bits.

                  So many Photoshop processes are single threaded so that regardless of how much RAM you have all the image data has to pass through one of the processor cores of your CPU. If you do not believe me look up those tests of performance with varying the RAM and varying the CPU: PS is a CPU dependent program despite Adobe's laudable but unstable use of the GPU to attempt parallel processing of image data.

                  All versions of Windows have finite resources for handling memory which files of your size may exceed. You should turn off any and all un-needed background programs and processes, including antivirus (unplug the network cable if you are paranoid). You may have to go to System Configuration to make sure memory/resource hogging programs don't load (e.g. anything referring to Itunes, Adobe reader, Microsoft Office). Look at the processes running with Task Manager and research what you can safely shut down.

                  Finally consider the fundamental cause of most repeated system crashes: failing power supply or failing hard drive (if your RAM passes tests).

                  • 6. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                    bmoag wrote:


                    In truth in the real world neither Windows or Mac OSancient can use more than 8gbs RAM


                    That's baloney.



                    • 7. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                      bunny-burning Level 1

                      had the same issue with 16gb ram. already passed memtests. my system is rock solid elsewise. crashes never occured. Except PS since cs6.

                      had my hdd's also exchanged. nothing changed.

                      • 8. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                        bmoag Level 1

                        I have stability issues with PS CS6 that almost render it unusable but not so with CS 5 running in the same machine/OS. Adobe will never publicly admit to its programming glitches  and is blaming video drivers for CS6 instability (they posted a web page devoted to that nonsense) rather than Adobe's failure to write adequate code. In fact the video drivers for NVidia and ATI were in their present form during the coding of CS6 so who is to blame?

                        • 9. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                          bmoag Level 1

                          Some say baloney others look at objective tests.

                          • 10. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                            Level 7

                            Have you been reading the forums?  If we have a verifiable bug, we admit to it and fix it as soon as we can.


                            But the most common crashes are currently OS bugs, driver bugs, and third party plugin bugs.

                            It's not nonsense - we track all the crashes we get data on, and video drivers really are a big problem (especially on Windows).


                            Many users have older versions of drivers (from before CS6 was written) that still contain bugs.  Both vendors have introduced new bugs since CS6 shipped, and fixed many as well.

                            • 11. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                              Level 7

                              What "objective" test shows that MacOS and Windows can't use more than 8 Gig of RAM?


                              Many people here are using more than that, without problems or any loss of performance.

                              Currently I'm on a machine with 32 Gig - which I regularly fill while doing development work, 3D, or video editing.

                              • 12. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                                Noel Carboni Level 8

                                bmoag wrote:


                                Some say baloney others look at objective tests.


                                You need to realize that there are folks who have more experience than you, bmoag, including personal experience with big systems that really work.  My current workstation has 48 GB RAM, which I use thoroughly, just like Chris.  One need only work on a very large Photoshop document to realize the benefits of having more RAM.  Simply put, more is better, much more is much better.


                                I base my answers on actual applicable experience and a 35 year professional engineering career.


                                bmoag wrote:


                                You have way too much RAM.
                                You should turn off any and all un-needed background programs and processes, including antivirus


                                I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you that some of what you wrote is just plain wrong.  Telling someone they have "way too much RAM" is akin to telling them their "computer is too fast" to run Photoshop - ridiculous.  And turning off antivirus to run Photoshop?  You're kidding, right?  I would have left it alone but for some reason you feel you need to justify your position.


                                By your own admission, you have "issues" with Photoshop.  Perhaps you need to defer to folks who know how not to have "issues" running Photoshop.



                                • 13. Re: Photoshop CS6 64bit crashing with big psb files right after opening
                                  bunny-burning Level 1

                                  yes ofc i have too much ram. i just threw it all away and put a 2gb dimm in my machine... now everything is perfect...


                                  ok now serious:

                                  i tried a fresh win7 install, and it seemed to fix the problem. PS did everything it should pretty stable and i had not problem.

                                  but still i cant say why its crashing on the other OS. all drivers are pretty much the same. maybe its some app i once installed which just causes the problem... who knows.


                                  i will make a full OS reinstall on an ssd tomorrow, and i keep my fingers crossed it will be all fine.