28 Replies Latest reply on Oct 2, 2012 2:40 AM by Peter Spier

    Export Black issue

    DE Fleabody

      Hello all,

       

      I have a very straightforward InDesign document—text only.

       

      When I export as PDF, the black text becomes very dark gray (about 30,30,30 or so). I cannot figure out why this is happening. Someone suggested to change the PDF output color conversion options to "Convert to Destination (Preserve Number)", but that is not doing anything.

       

      Does anyone have any ideas?

        • 1. Re: Export Black issue
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Sounds like you are converting a 100%K CMYK black to RGB....

          • 2. Re: Export Black issue
            DE Fleabody Level 1

            I just trashed my prefs, created a new document, typed a few words, exported, and the problem is still there.

             

            Why would this happen out of the box?

            • 3. Re: Export Black issue
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              What profile are you exporting to?

               

              The default CMYK black does not map to 0,0,0 in RGB, but you can create an RGB black, or set up as a Web document wich will give you RGB swatches.

              • 4. Re: Export Black issue
                DE Fleabody Level 1

                I'm not sure how to tell which profile I'm exporting to. In the Export PDF window, Color Conversion is set to "No Color Conversion".

                 

                Like I said, I trashed the prefs, so I'd think everything would be back to factory settings.

                • 5. Re: Export Black issue
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  OK.

                   

                  Where are you seeing the 30,30,30? What color is slected in ID and is it CMYK or RGB?

                  • 6. Re: Export Black issue
                    DE Fleabody Level 1

                    The default black is selected, C=0 M=0 Y=0 K=0.

                     

                    When I export it, I open the PDF in Preview (I'm on a Mac) and check the color of the "black" pixels (I zoom in far enough to get well past the antialiasing). It's about 30,30,30 ish. If I don't print with 0,0,0, I the letter forms obviously won't be smooth because the printer will be trying to print 30,30,30 gray.

                     

                    I've gotten 0,0,0 before, so I know it can be done.

                    • 7. Re: Export Black issue
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      > The default black is selected, C=0 M=0 Y=0 K=0.

                       

                      That's white. I think you mean 0,0,0,100.

                       

                      >When I export it, I open the PDF in Preview (I'm on a Mac) and check the color of the "black" pixels

                       

                      Mac preview is not a good application for viewing PDF. Since I'm on Windows I can only guess, but it seems pretty likely that youare looking at a the RGB conversion values of your monitor space for CMYK 0,0,0,100. Have you actually tried printing it? Have you tried printing it from Reader or Acrobat?

                      • 8. Re: Export Black issue
                        DE Fleabody Level 1

                        I have not tried printing from Reader or Acrobat, but I've printed many documents (as well as all of my ID documents ever) from Preview and they've all been fine, unless the blacks are not really 0,0,0.

                         

                        So doing the exact saming thing before (that is, exporting from ID and opening in Preview), I've had 0,0,0 and been fine printing. If it is ever not 0,0,0, it doesn't print correctly. For some reason, things are changing, and I can't figure out why. I don't think Preview has anything to do with it, because like I said, I've done it before. I can't imagine why out-of-the-box InDesign would not print correctly.

                        • 9. Re: Export Black issue
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          First off, you are not printing from InDesign, unless you've mislead me. You said you were exporting PDF. I asked earlier what settings you were using, but you didn't answer that completely. Are you using a preset? If so, which one? It makes a tremendous difference if the profiles are included in the exported PDF.

                           

                          What are the color settings in use in the document?

                           

                          What version of InDesign are you using, and what version were you using when things worked as you expected?

                          • 10. Re: Export Black issue
                            Rik Ramsay Level 4

                            I think Peter has already told you the answer on more than one occasion but you seem a little confused. Your color values of "30,30,30ish" make me think you are not checking this color with anything other than your eye on the monitor. If you had screenshotted it, you would have given us the exact values.

                             

                            You are viewing a CMYK document on an RGB monitor. Because you are not converting the profile on export, the monitor is showing you the CMYK values in RGB using it's monitor profile - i.e. the 0,0,0,100 becomes a black RGB value.

                             

                            2 ways to fix this - add the RGB black to your swatches palette (as Peter has mentioned) seeing as that is what you are expecting to see, or, create a Rich black in CMYK - c60m40y40k100. Either option will get you more of a "black" on screen but to be honest, if you are printing locally, there won't be much difference.

                            • 11. Re: Export Black issue
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              The conversion back to RGB for the display of 0|0|0|100 is handled by the document's CMYK profile, plus the rendering intent, and black point compensation.

                               

                              So in Photoshop you can see how different profiles handle the display conversion by setting one of the Info droppers to RGB. Legacy profiles like Photoshop 5 Default convert 0|0|0|100 to 0|0|0.

                               

                              PhotoshopScreenSnapz001.png

                               

                               

                              PhotoshopScreenSnapz002.png

                               

                              PhotoshopScreenSnapz003.png

                               

                              With CMY

                               

                              PhotoshopScreenSnapz004.png

                              • 12. Re: Export Black issue
                                DE Fleabody Level 1

                                Rik & Peter,

                                 

                                Yes, I am a little confused...this is all new to me as I'm (obviously) just now learning about the color technicalities of ID. I'm definitely not trying to be dense.

                                 

                                Here's a screenshot. Left is ID; right is the exported file in Acrobat. Running CS5.5 on Mac.

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2012-10-01 at 4.27.59 PM.png

                                • 13. Re: Export Black issue
                                  DE Fleabody Level 1

                                  Hmm, see, this is very interesting to me. I'm just now starting to realize the difference between CMYK and RGB. (I knew you used one for print and the other for web stuff, but I didn't really know the difference.)

                                   

                                  #3 reflects what I'm getting now. 0|0|0|100 = 39|36|37.

                                  #1 reflects what I've gotten before. 0|0|0|100 = 0|0|0.

                                   

                                  I'm using Web Coated (SWOP) v2...I think. It's whatever the default is.

                                  • 14. Re: Export Black issue
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    It looks to me as if your setting in the ID prefs for Appeance of Black is set to Display all Blacks as Rich Black. Rich blacks are made from all four CMYK inks and are darker than 0,0,0,100. I fyou adjust the setting to Display All Blacks Accurately I think you'll see them display identically.

                                    • 15. Re: Export Black issue
                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                      If you go to Edit > Color Settings you can tell us what your default settings are. It's not likely you've changed from them for the document given your level of expertise.

                                      • 16. Re: Export Black issue
                                        DE Fleabody Level 1

                                        I checked and it was indeed set to Display All Blacks as Rich Black...and now they are at least consistent, but in the 30s.

                                         

                                        Screenshot of default settings:

                                         

                                        Screen Shot 2012-10-01 at 4.41.17 PM.png

                                        • 17. Re: Export Black issue
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I fyou adjust the setting to Display All Blacks Accurately I think you'll see them display identically.

                                           

                                          Peter, I think you have it reversed–Display Accurately uses the document profile, Display Rich Blacks ignores the profile and forces 0|0|0|100 to display as RGB 0|0|0

                                          • 18. Re: Export Black issue
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            Dispaying all blcaks accurately displays the deafault swatch as a dark gray, as it will appear in print using only black ink. That's exactly waht I inteneded.

                                             

                                            If the OP wants to output Rich Black, or 0,0,0 RGB I think he should be using a rich black or RGB black swatch to begin with, or forcing the conversion on export, not preserving colors.

                                            • 19. Re: Export Black issue
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              If you set your black pref to Display All Blacks as Rich Black then export to an RGB destination you'll get 0|0|0 in the exported PDF. Obviously you don't want to do this if you are exporting for a printing press.

                                               

                                               

                                              Screen shot 2012-10-01 at 5.50.21 PM.png

                                               

                                              Screen shot 2012-10-01 at 5.49.58 PM.png

                                              AcrobatScreenSnapz001.png

                                              • 20. Re: Export Black issue
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                I fyou adjust the setting to Display All Blacks Accurately I think you'll see them display identically

                                                Not always, it depends on the simulation profile–see #11

                                                 

                                                US Newsprint SNAP returns brown 40|16|0

                                                 

                                                PhotoshopScreenSnapz005.png

                                                • 21. Re: Export Black issue
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Dispaying all blcaks accurately displays the deafault swatch as a dark gray, as it will appear in print using only black ink. That's exactly waht I inteneded.

                                                  Sorry, I missed #12

                                                  • 22. Re: Export Black issue
                                                    DE Fleabody Level 1

                                                    Why shouldn't I have 0,0,0 in my export? That's how I've always done it.

                                                     

                                                    If I trash my prefs, then open the file and work with 0,0,0,100 CMYK black and then export (even if it shows up as something else in RGB) it should still do fine at the printer's, when submitted as PDF?

                                                    • 23. Re: Export Black issue
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      If the document is headed for an offset press you don't want to convert to RGB—the preview of 0|0|0|100 as dark gray is showing you what will happen on press. A black with CMY like 65|50|50|100 prints darker than 0|0|0|100. ID (with Display Accurate Blacks) and Acrobat are correctly previewing that color difference via the document CMYK profile.

                                                      • 24. Re: Export Black issue
                                                        DE Fleabody Level 1

                                                        Ok. So then so long as CMYK is 0,0,0,100, I should be good to go, regardless of the RGB...correct?

                                                         

                                                        The printer is LightingSource (Print-on-demand, but they're on the higher end).

                                                        • 26. Re: Export Black issue
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          Rob Day wrote:

                                                           

                                                          If you set your black pref to Display All Blacks as Rich Black then export to an RGB destination you'll get 0|0|0 in the exported PDF. Obviously you don't want to do this if you are exporting for a printing press.

                                                          It's not the Display setting that's doing the conversion, it's the Output All Blacks as Rich Black setting that's forcing 100K ot 0,0,0 RGB when you export to an RGB profile....

                                                           

                                                          But, if this is intended for print, there's no way you want to convert to an RGB profile....

                                                          • 27. Re: Export Black issue
                                                            DE Fleabody Level 1

                                                            Hmmm...then just out of curiosity, why does my desktop printer not print clearly when it's not 0,0,0 RGB...even though it may be 0,0,0,100 CMYK? The edges of the letterforms aren't crisp and clear; they're jagged, since the printer is effectively printing grayscale.

                                                            • 28. Re: Export Black issue
                                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                              Desktop printer, though they use CMYK inks, are RGB devices and convert the RGB numbers to CMYK internally. The printer is being faithful to the RGB values it gets. Under most circumstances this is the behavior you would want with a CMYK file printing in monochrome (black ink only) as there may be areas of the file that are rich black and darker than your 100k type. the only way to represent that in grayscale is to print the 100k as a dark gray screen and reserve the darkest black print capability for rich blacks in the file.