15 Replies Latest reply on Oct 3, 2012 11:47 AM by Joel Cherney

    I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!

    ceencha Level 1

      Friends, you can see that I have my paragraph set up a certain way:

       

      01.jpg

       

      I want both of the "2." lines to line up vertically, but NOTHING I DO works.

       

      If I just hit ENTER, it doesn't work, because the lines don't match up:

       

      enter.jpg

       

      If I hit SHIFT + ENTER at the end of the line, I am equally screwed, because it justifies "CERNUI"

       

      02.jpg

       

      If I hit SHIFT + ENTER at the beginning of the next line, I am also screwed, because it puts space BEFORE the line:

       

      03.jpg

       

      Can somebody please help me?  THANKS !!

        • 1. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
          Prashant Bhatnagar Level 1

          Here you should use the Align to Grid  to align the baseline for first line or all if your layout allows. That should do.

          • 2. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
            [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

            Change the Space After for your #1 paragraph from "0 in" to the leading of your text.

            • 3. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              This is one of those problems that plagues translators. When you are trying to work two parallel threads in different languages it's inevitable that some paragraphs will have more or fewer lines than their translations, and the only ways to keep the starting lines consistent is to have uneven space between the paragraphs in some places. You can achieve that, as Prashant suggests, by adding Align to Grid for the first line of the paragraph in the style, but you also need to force one paragarph or the other to jump a baseline (or more, depending on the line count) by adding soen amount of space before or space after manually.

               

              Another option, if you don't need to have paragraphs split across frame boundaries, is to use a two-column table. You can convert the running text to a table from the Table menu, but you'll want to specify some character you don't use anywhere in the text as the column separator so that each thread will become a single column table on its own. You can then add a column of blank cells to either one, select the entire other table, copy, then select the entire blank column, and paste. Do this on a copy of your file.

               

              Two coumns withthe same number of paragraphs, but different lengths:

              Two Cols to table 1.png

               

              First columns converted, and conversion options, with second column ready to convert:

              Two Cols to table 2.png

              Note that there is now empty space at the bottom of the first column because the text has reflowed due to cell insets in the table and the last paragraph is now too big to fit.

               

              Ready to add a second column to the table...

                Two Cols to table 3.png

               

              Ready to paste into new table column:

              Two Cols to table 4.png

               

              The new table:

              Two Cols to table 5.png

               

              I think the first option is probably better...

              • 4. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                [Jongware] wrote:

                 

                Change the Space After for your #1 paragraph from "0 in" to the leading of your text.

                It's hard to tell if there is already space before or space after applied as part of the style here. It certainly seems like there's one or the other, so I'd say that answer is a little too simplistic. Rather than change , I would say "add to" the space after the amount of the leading. And of course that also presumes there's only a one line difference in length.

                 

                That's roughly equivalent to aligning to the grid (presuming the grid is set to the leading) and adding any amount of spacing up to the leading amount. Adding more than the leading amount would skip another line, or more, depending on how much space is added.

                • 5. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                  [Jongware] Most Valuable Participant

                  Peter Spier wrote:

                   

                  That's roughly equivalent to aligning to the grid (presuming the grid is set to the leading) ...

                   

                  Yeah, but you can see that the white space in between is *not* one entire empty line. So Align To Grid would not work anyway.

                   

                  Ceencha's last screen shot displays his current Space Before (0.2in)/After (0in) settings.

                   

                  Anyway, while manually changing space before/after will work, it has its drawbacks: can't do this with a style, hard to automate, an Invitation To Disaster if the text gets edited.

                  Converting the lot to a giant table should work, but as you say, it's a lot of work to change this existing content. (I remember ol' WordPerfect 5.0 having no problem at all with both manually balanced columns, and converting them to/from Proper Tables. That was in 1988 )

                   

                  The biggest drawbacks of a giant table are that InDesign often messes up the page formatting -- you might get unnecessary blank space at the bottom of a page, unexplained blank pages, and large pieces of the table copied on top of itself --, and it cannot break inside a paragraph.

                  • 6. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                    MW Design Level 4

                    This is an instance where a capability of a long defunct application's side-by-side paragraph styles would come in really handy. I used Ventura for many publications that had translations.

                     

                    I would really like Adobe to include it one of these days. Used it in just about every tech manual I ever did as well.

                     

                    Take care, Mike

                    • 7. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                      ceencha Level 1

                      Friends,

                       

                      I think have found the solution.  Is my solution something that has already been said by one of you?  If so, I apologize.  Here it is:

                       

                      To fix the bad spacing, I select the "blank" line:

                       

                      Solution_01.jpg

                       

                      And then I change the "space before" to ZERO:

                       

                      solution_02.jpg

                       

                      Does everyone agree this is the best thing?

                       

                      I think In Design could fix this by adding a "SHIFT + OPTION + SPACE BAR"

                       

                      Adding that would cause a line, but IGNORE the "space before" and also not justify the text.

                       

                      I suppose one could also create a special paragraph style with ZERO as the "space before" and assign it a hotbutton, but trust me, this gets tedious.

                      • 8. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                        MW Design Level 4

                        Probably has been mentioned above...

                         

                        With leading set to 14pt and space after set to 14pt, one can simply use shift + enter to balance out two frames of paragraphs. I also have align to grid: first line set in this example from clicking around.

                         

                        numbered_paragraphs_balanced.jpg

                         

                        I can upload a sample document if wanted.

                         

                        Take care, Mike

                        • 9. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          Ceencha wrote:

                           

                          Friends,

                           

                          I think have found the solution.  Is my solution something that has already been said by one of you?  If so, I apologize.  Here it is:

                           

                          To fix the bad spacing, I select the "blank" line:

                           

                          And then I change the "space before" to ZERO:

                          The only problem with approach is when that empty paragraph you just added winds up at the top of a column. Paragraph space before or after is ignored at the top of a column, but an empty paragraph leaves a blank line.

                          • 10. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                            peter minneapolis Level 4

                            I'm not sure of the possibilities that might need manual corrections, but using a two-column text frame, rather than independent text frames for each language, with a paragraph style that spans all columns, and a paragraph style that splits columns, for each language, might work.

                             

                            [EDIT] Ooops, the first gotcha is the numbered list requirement. One possibility is numbering the left column paragraph style, and inserting a cross-reference to each numbered paragraph at the beginning of the corresponding right-column paragraph, to capture only the paragraph number. Since these cross-references are within one document, known problems like those with cross-document cross-references probably won't occur.[/EDIT]

                             

                            HTH

                             

                             

                            Regards,

                             

                             

                            Peter

                            _______________________

                            Peter Gold

                            KnowHow ProServices

                             

                            Message was edited by: peter at knowhowpro

                            • 11. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                              I don't think it will work at all. With a split column style you'd need to fill a column or have a non-split paragraph intervening to force the text into the second column, and I don't see any way to work it with a two-column frame. How do you know where to to switch languages?

                              • 12. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                                peter minneapolis Level 4

                                Yes. A blank non-split paragraph to separate blocks of parallel language/translation paragraphs.

                                 

                                Set the split column and language attributes for each paragraph style. Probably would need to also set the keep number of lines together to whatever works in most situations. Unlike table cells, this does permit breaking across boundaries, but may need attention when the text flow changes from editing.

                                 

                                 

                                Regards,

                                 

                                 

                                Peter

                                _______________________

                                Peter Gold

                                KnowHow ProServices

                                 

                                Peter Spier wrote:

                                 

                                I don't think it will work at all. With a split column style you'd need to fill a column or have a non-split paragraph intervening to force the text into the second column, and I don't see any way to work it with a two-column frame. How do you know where to to switch languages?

                                • 13. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  So you'd  need to arrange the text so you alternate paragraphs for each language in one continuous story, and insert a blank span paragraph between every pair of paragraphs to be sure it works (and we're not sure it works if a pararaph needs to cross a frame boundary, is that correct?).

                                   

                                  That seems worse, at least in the present state of the file, than making a table.

                                  • 14. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                                    peter minneapolis Level 4

                                    Yes, as it is, a table could be the most straightforward solution, with the occasional manual simulating of split rows.

                                     

                                    However, if there is such a blessed state as a file that will not be edited, then differences in laying it out to suit rigorous requirements that can't be fully automated - IOW needs user attention - may be more a personal, or workflow, choice.

                                     

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                     

                                     

                                    Peter

                                    _______________________

                                    Peter Gold

                                    • 15. Re: I've been trying for weeks to figure this out: PLEASE HELP! Thanks!
                                      Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      However, if there is such a blessed state as a file that will not be edited, then differences in laying it out to suit rigorous requirements that can't be fully automated - IOW needs user attention - may be more a personal, or workflow, choice.

                                       

                                      That's why I've given up on my personal suggestion for managing what are, in effect, parallel corpora:

                                       

                                      1) Store your text content in a database!

                                      2) Place source text in a single column

                                      3) Save out target text into CSV

                                      4) Do a data merge into a new column

                                      5) Run a script or macro to detach every segment and place it in an anchored object

                                       

                                      The above, and the entire class of multilingual workflows like it, only work when step no.1 is successfully employed. I would never consider any other method for bilingual docs that might, at any point in the future, be revised or commented upon or repurposed.

                                       

                                      (Mike - I, too, have fond memories of Ventura's abilities in this area, but that was a very long time ago. It's been so long that I class Ventura nostalgia with other early-90s collegiate nostalgia. )