18 Replies Latest reply on Apr 16, 2013 10:50 AM by Yammer

    New DNGPE, new profile

    Yammer Level 4

      I've just given the new 1.0.4 version of DNG PE a spin today, and I'm noticing quite a different result with the Chart Wizard compared with the previous version, using exactly the same chart image.

       

      Some of the patches are much more saturated - some at maximum 30 - and blues are coming out quite a bit darker.

       

      I wouldn't have expected much of a difference in profile effects between versions. What is new in the latest version, besides supporting the latest DNG spec, which might account for this?

       

      Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

        • 1. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
          b2martin_a Level 2

          I have also noticed that the Saturation sliders under the "Color Matrices" tab do not work correctly with v4 D700 profiles.  They appear to work correctly with non v4 D700 profiles.  I don't know about the Hue sliders. 

           

          I use the saturation sliders to modify saturation of the profile by adjusting all three the same amount. 

          • 2. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
            MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

            Do you still have the older version of DNG PE to try on the same image?

            • 3. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
              Yammer Level 4

              MadManChan2000 wrote:

               

              Do you still have the older version of DNG PE to try on the same image?

              I do, and I ran it again on the same chart image to check my sanity. Sure enough, the 1.0.0.45 version produces much less saturated adjustments.

               

              However, having said that, since I reported this, nearly a week ago, I have decided that this particular chart image (which produced a good profile with the previous version of DNGPE) is no good. It was shot in overcast conditions, and I suspect that the chart wizard is just over compensating for a very dull image--and more so with the new version.

               

              So, I went back to an older chart image, photographed in sunny conditions, which I used (in conjunction with manual RGB saturation boosts) to  produce my previous general profile. Running the chart wizard in the new version produces a better result than before, and I am now using this.

               

              So, in short, it seems to produce more saturated results on all my chart images, but seems to particularly hate the chart shot in overcast lighting.

              • 4. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                b2martin_a Level 2

                The new DNG Profile Editor has problems for the Color Matrices and Chart tabs if using a Camera profile that is like the v2, v3, and v4 profiles for the D700.  I checked a D800 Camera profile and see the same problems as with the D700 v2,v3,v4 profiles.  I do not see a problem if using Adobe Standard for these cameras. 

                 

                Any comments on this Eric?

                • 5. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                  b2martin_a Level 2

                  Yammer P, do you see the problems I listed with the new DNG Profile Editor?  The Color Matrices and Chart tabs have major problems if you are trying to edit one of the newer profiles. 

                  • 6. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                    Yammer Level 4

                    All I have tried is the colorchecker chart wizard based on the Adobe Standard profile. That's about all I can get my head around. I've never used the v4 profiles, as I'm happier with the Adobe one.

                    • 7. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                      b2martin_a Level 2

                      The Adobe profiles appear to fall in three different categroies.  Adobe Standard profiles are about 55 KB in size, Camera profiles appear to fall in two categories - one is about 110 KB in size and the other is 272 KB in size.  The new DNG Profile Editor appears to work on the Adobe Standard and Camera profiles that are 110 KB in size, but Color Matrices and Chart Tabs do not work on Camera profiles that are 272 KB in size. 

                       

                      D700 Camera profiles for v2, v3, and v4 are 272 KB in size and the Color Matrices and Chart Tabs do not work correctly for these profiles. 

                       

                      I looked at the new Nikon cameras and all the Camera profiles are 272 KB in size, so I don't think they will work with the new DNG Profile Editor - I checked the D800 camera profiles and they don't work for these tabs. 

                       

                      Adobe has not responded to this error. 

                      • 8. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                        Yammer Level 4

                        b2martin_a wrote:

                         

                        The new DNG Profile Editor appears to work on the Adobe Standard and Camera profiles that are 110 KB in size, but Color Matrices and Chart Tabs do not work on Camera profiles that are 272 KB in size. 

                        I have a bit of trouble getting my head around what the DNG Profile Editor actually does, at the best of times. So, when you say "work on" a profile, what do you actually mean? As far as I'm aware, DNGPE creates profiles from recipes, not profiles. Unless you mean selecting a Base Profile?

                         

                        I couldn't see any difference between 1.0.0.45 and 1.0.0.46, apart from the chart wizard producing more extreme saturation values. I can't remember seeing any What's New description, unless I missed it. The recipes the new version makes are the same size, at around 27kB, and the profiles it generates are still around 27kB too.

                        • 9. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                          b2martin_a Level 2

                          I am talking about editing one of the existing profiles - selecting it as the base profile.  The DNG Profile Editor has 4 tabs where you can edit the profile - Color Tables, Tone Curve, Color Matrices, and Chart tabs.  All profiles I have edited appear to work in the Color Tables and Tone Curve tabs, but a profile that has a size of 272 KB (like the v2, v3, and v4 Profiles for the D700 and profiles for the new Nikon cameras) do not work correctly in the Color Matrices and Chart tabs. 

                           

                          If you select a base profile that is 272 KB in size and select the Color Matrices tab then move any of the sliders (Red, Green, or Blue Primary Hue or Saturation) by just 1 unit you get major changes in colors.  If I select that same profile in Adobe Camera RAW and do the same thing under the Camera Calibration tab the profile behaves correctly. 

                           

                          If you try to run the Chart Tab on one of these profiles you see major changes that are incorrect. 

                           

                          I was generating a new profile that used the D700 Camerea Neutral v4 profile.  I generated a new Tone Curve under the Tone Curve Tab, and then wanted to reduce the saturation by setting Red, Green, and Blue Primary Saturation sliders all to -10 under the Color Matrices Tab.  I can't do this since I see major changes for any value selected in this tab other than zero.  I output the new profile with just the Tone Curve changes and changed the saturation in ACR by setting the Red, Green, and Blue Primary Saturation sliders to -10, which works correctly. 

                           

                          I have generated modified Picture Control Profiles of the Neutral profile with a new Tone Curve using Nikon's Picture Control software and have this profile loaded into the camera.  I am modifying the Camera Neutral v4 profile for ACR to match what I get out of the camera, which is working very good except for the saturation.

                           

                          I would like to see Adobe fix these problems. 

                          • 10. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                            Yammer Level 4

                            Right. I think it's becoming clearer now.

                             

                            I can confirm that, if I load a D300 v4 profile on top of a chart DNG in Profile Editor, and play with the Color Matrices sliders, the live preview does indeed show a major shift as soon as you move them even one point, so this is clearly not as desired.

                             

                            But, I suspect that the v4 profiles (and maybe the other large profiles too) are not supposed to be used with Profile Editor as they have been built using specialised in-house Adobe tools. I seem to remember Eric talking about this before; they are effectively one-offs designed just to please the folks who want more accurate duplication of Nikon's Picture Controls.

                            • 11. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                              Yammer Level 4

                              I have now spent a few hours looking at this more closely, and have abandoned the Chart Wizard in favour of a more analytical approach.

                               

                              I have several old recipes, made with different versions of DNGPE's Chart Wizard with Adobe Standard as the base profile, and I have tabulated the results. I have noticed that Hue shifts are pretty close, but there's a bigger variance in Saturation values, and a big change in the latest version (compared with previous versions).

                               

                              So, as I can't seem to get the right balance of foliage, skin, sky, etc. and general saturation, I have resorted to hand-picking the Saturation values from the table, and applied a little bit of Lightness adjustment too. This is a bit disappointing from a lazy academic point of view, but I'm quite happy with the latest general profile I am using.

                               

                              It would be nicer if I could just rely on the Chart Wizard though.

                              • 12. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                b2martin_a Level 2

                                I understand that the v4 profiles have additional capabilities that were not covered by the previous DNG specification, but Eric indicated that the new DNG specification would resolve this issue.  I assumed (maybe wrong) that the new DNG Profile Editor based on the new DNG specification would allow editing any of the profiles.  The Color Matrices sliders are just like what is available in ACR under the Camera Calibration tab and Primary Red, Green, and Blue Hue and Saturation sliders work correctly for v4 profiles - they don't work correctly in the DNG Profile Editor for v4 profiles.  It appears that Adobe is using the v4 type profile for all new Camera XXXX profiles, but not Adobe Standard.  Saturation and Hue slider do work under the Color Tables tab for v4 profiles, just not under the Color Matrices and Chart tabs. 

                                 

                                I will not have access to the forums for a few days, so may not respond to anything new before Thursday. 

                                • 13. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                  b2martin_a Level 2

                                  Adobe appears to be ignoring these bugs with the new DNG Profile Editor. 

                                  • 14. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                    b2martin_a Level 2

                                    Adobe, do you have any comments on the above issues?

                                    • 15. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                      b2martin_a Level 2

                                      How can you change profile saturation for edits of D700 v4 Camera profiles since the Color Matrices sliders don't work for these profiles?

                                      • 16. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                        MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                        b2martin_a, please send me an email (madmanchan2000@yahoo.com);  I want to follow up with you on this.  In your email, please let me know if you're on Mac or Windows.

                                        • 17. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                          b2martin_a Level 2

                                          Email sent on 11/20/12 with requested information. 

                                          • 18. Re: New DNGPE, new profile
                                            Yammer Level 4

                                            I got a D800 last month, and generated a custom camera profile on a sunny day using the Profile Editor and Chart Wizard. I've been using this for the last couple of weeks, and today noticed something pretty awful while I was pixel-peeping...

                                             

                                            Here's a 100% crop of what I saw (look at the frayed edge of the flag)
                                            _KN50813DPE.jpg

                                            Compare this with the Adobe Standard version
                                            _KN50813AS.jpg

                                            ...and the Camera Standard version
                                            _KN50813CS.jpg

                                             

                                            I'm guessing the patch adjustments to the Adobe Standard profile are just too big to produce a smooth result.

                                             

                                            Although I love the idea of producing my own profiles, I can't justify this sort of distortion, and I'm going to switch to the ready-made profiles for the time being.