13 Replies Latest reply: May 29, 2013 12:14 PM by Que Ball RSS

    CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?

    Mips

      Hi all,

      Please excuse me if this is not the correct forum, I’m new to Adobe’s customer service, and I couldn’t find a direct Adobe email account to send my

      question, apart from piracy@adobe.com which I don’t believe it would be appropriate.


      I would like to purchase Adobe CS6 Production Premium and found “Toshcomputers” a supplier of Adobe and Apple products on Ebay who are selling Adobe CS6 Production Premium commercial copy for AU$1249.00, which is exceptional value. 

      Toshcomputers are selling CS6 Production Premium commercial upgrade with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number, which is unusual.  I have searched the Internet and could not find anything negative against Toshcomputers that warrants concerns; they have a very high rating on Ebay's customer’s feedback.

       

      Are there any reasons for Adobe not to honour the CS6 Production Premium upgrade & CS5.5 Production Premium commercial licence sold by Toshcomputers, given they are genuine Adobe software serial numbers as claimed by Toshcomputers?

       

      The following product description is from Toshcomputer’s Ebay web page.

       

      “Adobe Creative Suite 6 Production Premium Full-Feature boxed CS6 (Adobe-sealed retail box)
      Fully featured Mac or Windows Commercial license (boxed), you pick the platform you like (this means you get either the Mac or Windows version, not both). This is not Teacher/Student, Not Education, Not Upgrade, Not OEM, Not DVD-only, NOT the older CS5.5 only: This is a boxed, Adobe-sealed full Commercial CS6 upgrade retail box and a Commercial CS5.5 serial number, together making a fresh CS6 Commercial license. No other Adobe software is required. This set allows for full Adobe account creation and Adobe support, software registration, upgrades, etc. Careful when you consider advertisements that do not state specifically that the item is sent in the standard Adobe retail BOX, as re-packaged DVD-only sales are common for non-genuine product.

      (….etc)

      The only difference to our standard CS5 retail box is that you, once only during installation, enter two serial numbers. This product will register with Adobe and is eligible for full Adobe support. We have sold hundreds of these sets worldwide, check prior eBay client comments. Adobe has given us permission to use their trademarks for our advertisements. Note: We can also list here any UPGRADES to CS6, from CS3, CS4, CS5 and CS5.5 versions; just let us know what you need.”

      See Toshcomputers Ebay web link for more details:

      http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ADOBE-Production-Premium-Creative-Suite-6-FULL-New-CS6-Commerci al-BOXED-Mac-WIN-/110889858229?pt=AU_software&hash=item19d18cf4b5

       


      The following are some general information about the company:

       

      They are an Australian company based in Sydney, registered as “Triaxis Pty Ltd” ABN 58 129 146 863 trading as “Toshcomputers” as stated by “business.gov.au” and ASIC.

       

      See web page links:

      http://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?SearchText=58+129+146+863

       

      https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/RegistrySearch/faces/adf.task-flow?adf.tfId=panelSearch& adf.tfDoc=/taskflows/panelSearch.xml&searchType=OrgAndBusNm&searchText=129146863

       

       

      Any feedback is most welcomed, and I would be most grateful if Adobe Customer service could verify “Toshcomputers” software supply method does not infringe Adobe’s Customer software license agreement.

       

      Many thanks,

        • 2. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
          Mips Community Member

          I agree with you 100%, it’s a question that only Adobe can answer with authority. There is no point in asking the supplier if they are selling legal software, no supplier with any basic common sense will admit they are selling counterfeit software.

           

          Australian Adobe prices are very high compared to the US and here is an Australian company who can offer CS6 at a reasonable price, it begs the question is there a catch?

           

          Can someone from Adobe Customer service please verify “Toshcomputers’” CS6  software offer?

           

           

          Thank you,

          • 3. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
            Mips Community Member

            As I have stated in my initial post on 09/10/12, I'm interested in purchasing CS6 Production Premium at an affordable and fair price from a reputable Australian vendor.  And all I'm seeking is a simple "Yes or No" answer from Adobe Customer Service to my initial posted unanswered question:

             

            "Can a vendor legally sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 commercial serial number?"

             

            Two months have gone by and my initial post has received an overwhelming and very much appreciated 4000 Forum user views.  And according to the following eBay web link, 21 copies of CS6 Production Premium were sold by "Toshcomputers" as previously described for $1249 (Aus) each, the sale ended on 16/12/12.

             

            http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ADOBE-Production-Premium-Creative-Suite-6-FULL-New-CS6-Commerci al-BOXED-Mac-WIN-/110889858229 

             

            As of yet I haven't received any acknowledgment or response from Adobe Customer Support staff, no direct emails, no Notifications (Adobe Community), no Private Messages (Adobe Community), and evidently no replies from Adobe to my Discussions (Adobe Community).

             

            Clearly this is a major concern that goes beyond my interests, it concerns everyone including Adobe. There is only one of two possible conclusions:

             

            Firstly, over 4000 users are interested in this topic, some of which are Australian customers who will immensely welcome and have a right to benefit from the free market-driven opportunities such as purchasing genuine Adobe software at discounted Australian prices (yet to be verified by Adobe).

             

            Or secondly, Toshcomputers continues to sell Adobe software openly and uninhibited on eBay that may not be legal (yet to be verified by Adobe).

             

            It is evident my initial post warrants a response from Adobe Customer service for all 4000 interested Forum users and 21 Toshcomputers customers who have purchased CS6 Production Premium as per the above description.

             

            I recently came across the following Adobe Discussions post, titled "Re:Toshcomputers on eBay" under the menu "More Like This" on the top right side of this web page.  It confirms my initial presented findings.  It was posted somewhat prior to 24/02/12 (appears to be the modified date compared with Replier's date and time, two second difference, odd!!!) and asks if the vendor could legitimately sell a CS5.5 upgrade with a CS4 commercial serial number. The post received a single reply, recommending the vendor in question to be reported to piracy@Adobe.com.  Evidently someone has censored this post, renaming the title from "Re: Toshcomputers on eBay" to "Piracy on eBay [edited by host]", removing what is believed to be Toshcomputers company name and a web link from the original post, which is odd.  You would think if Toshcomputers had acted unlawfully a clear and unambiguous warning message would be advertised on this post.  Therefore allowing customers the opportunity to actively avoid Toshcomputers.  Instead it is unclear if any unlawful acts had occurred and by censoring parts of the post it creates more confusion and ambiguity.  See the following Adobe Discussions post link:

             

            http://forums.adobe.com/message/4228454#4228454 

             

            In essence the above post titled "Re: Toshcomputers on eBay" is the same unanswered question that I have asked of Adobe Customer Service on this post.  It would be inappropriate of me if I were to follow the Replier’s advice (as per above paragraph) reporting the vendor in question to Adobe's antipiracy email.  Especially when I have found NO evidence (to the best of my abilities) of Toshcomputers selling illegitimate or counterfeit software on the internet.

             

            Adobe's antipiracy email/web page is a private service which is geared for apprehending criminals.  It’s not a public service where information is shared between the public and Adobe. And given over 4000 Forum user views this topic is very much in the public interest.  After all it’s only a software license sales inquiry and not a criminal investigation.  See the following Adobe Reporting Suspected Software Piracy web link:

             

            https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=anti_piracy&loc=en_xap 

             

            Toshcomputers have a new eBay listing for 210 copies of CS6 upgrades accompanied with a 5.5 serial number on offer.  That’s over a quarter of a million Australian dollars in sales, that is a serious amount of money, especially if it is deemed by Adobe to be illegitimate.  As per the following eBay web link.

             

            http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130824818622

             

            This raises a major concern, if a vendor is not permitted (yet to be determined by Adobe) to sell CS? upgrades accompanied with previous CS? serial numbers then how can it be possible to do so on eBay for so long without detection?  After all it doesn’t take much to be deregistered on eBay if a vendor is proven to act unlawfully.  And given the evidence that I have found Toshcomputers have been in business for a number of years.

             

            In summary, this is not a situation where I can approach the vendor and asked for a verification, it’s pointless and meaningless!  Nor can I consult NSW Department of Fair Trading or Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, as they too are equally dependent on Adobe to provide information regarding its own licensing agreement.  Only Adobe can answer what is in essence a fundamental licensing sales question.

             

            In short, all I want to do is purchase CS6 Production Premium at an affordable price and not become a victim of software piracy.

             

            To all Forum users, any feedback is most welcomed. Also are there any other alternate avenues in which I can get in direct contact with Adobe Australia Customer Service? I really would like to have the matter resolved quickly, many thanks. for all the views :-)

             

            Can someone from Adobe Customer Service please verify if vendors are permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?

             

            Thank you all,

             

            • 4. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
              naik-media

              Any joy from the Admin?  What did you decide in the end??  PM me if not and if you're in the UK, I've seen another site (which seems legit) that has it at a good price.

              • 5. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                Mips Community Member

                Thank you for your support, I wish I was living in the UK so I could take up your software supplier suggestion. I live in Australia where many multinational companies charge exorbitant prices across the field (cars, computers, white goods, etc.) you name it we are ripped-off. It's more like legal extortion then World free trade. Here we are professionals and hobbyists who are dedicated users of Adobe products debating World free trade, instead of discussing and innovating creative content.  Perhaps I should post my question to United Nations website instead!!!

                 

                It has been a total of 4 months 1 week and 4 days and more than 5900 views since I posted my initial question to Adobe Customer Service on this forum and frustratingly NOT a single response or even an acknowledgment from Adobe Customer Service. It is obvious this is a legitimate and justified question which concerns many thousands of Adobe non-US customers.

                 

                About two weeks ago I found the following Adobe website (see web link) titled “How to avoid piracy” which I wasn’t aware of previously.  It states piracy@Adobe.com email service can be used to report software piracy and also to validate vendors sales offers. Unlike Adobe’s antipiracy webpage as previously stated on my last post on 8/1/2013. You would think both Adobe antipiracy webpage and antipiracy email services would be consistent.

                 

                The following are two extracts from the web page titled “How to avoid piracy” which are relevant in seeking an answer to my initial question.

                 

                "Always buy software from a reputable Adobe Authorized Reseller. When in doubt, contact piracy@adobe.com for guidance."

                 

                "To verify the authenticity of serial numbers, or if you have any other questions or concerns, contact piracy@adobe.com."

                 

                Web link to “How to avoid piracy:

                http://www.adobe.com/au/aboutadobe/antipiracy/avoid.html?showMyTab=tabid1#


                Subsequently I then sent an email to piracy@Adobe.com asking;

                 

                If vendors are permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?

                 

                Two weeks has gone by and once again I have YET to receive a reply from Adobe Customer Service.  How can Adobe expect its customers to remain loyal when they do not honour their own commitments!!!

                 

                As I have previously stated, there is only one of two possibilities, either it is a case of customer neglect which allows and perpetuates software pirates to operate uninhibited or Adobe is deliberately protecting its preferred suppliers. Either way it is us the customers who are always penalised!

                 

                Companies need to grow so they can achieve higher economies of scale to serve better its customers. Alas soon as they dominate the market it then becomes economies of monopolies and subsequently customers are then held to ransom. The following web link sums it all up so elegantly!!!


                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78yigV0GYGQ

                 

                Are we not all (the rest of the world) equal and deserve the same customer service rights as those of hard-working and law-abiding US customers?????


                To all Forum users; thank you for the continued of interest, please feel free to make any comments. :-)

                Attention Adobe customer service:

                 

                How can you justify not answering my initial question especially when over 5900 public views are interested as well?

                 

                Can you please provide an answer so that I can make a free choice which vendor I purchase my software from?

                 

                “Are vendors permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?”


                Regards,

                • 6. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                  NelleChan


                  I would not to trust this vendor. It seems odd that they are selling this CS6 software with a CS 5.5 serial number. Tosh Computers is not on the Adobe Australia list of resellers.

                  • 7. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                    Mips Community Member

                    Thank you for the reply; I agree with you it’s an odd way to sell software. Equally it is as odd for Adobe not taking action by deregistering Toshcomputers from eBay and or placing a public warning, e.g. "Answering this post?"  This is not a recent occurrence, Toshcomputers has traded Adobe software on Ebay for years and have a high eBay customers' feed back rating. It’s puzzling and it doesn’t make any sense.

                     

                    Adobe's resellers list doesn’t guarantee you will receive the most competitive priced (legal) software in Australia.  What is most disturbing Adobe on average charges 50% more in Australia for identical software downloads compared to the American market, and yet the Australian dollar has a higher exchange rate then the US dollar!!!

                     

                    Adobe and Toshcomputers are equally odd and Adobe can only solve this ongoing frustrating dilemma. We (all 7000 views) are still waiting for a definitive response from Adobe???


                    Attention Adobe customer service:

                     

                    “Are vendors permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?”


                    Regards,

                    • 8. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                      Que Ball

                      It would only be legal if they are transferring complete ownership of the license for CS5.5 and then destroy copies and use of the serial number. 

                       

                       

                      If they are selling the exact same serial number over and over again then it is illegal. 

                       

                      Here is the adobe document about doing a proper transfer of ownership.

                      http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.html

                       

                      It would involve submitting forms and getting a case number from Adobe.  It requires they provide proof of purchase if they didn't buy direct from Adobe.

                      It requires the serial number to have been registered in their adobe account.  Adobe customer service will move the registration from their online account to yours in the process.

                       

                      Ask the seller if they are following these proceedures as part of their sales.  If they do not, it's likely they are improperly selling upgrade copies and using a few legitimate CS5.5 serial numbers given out to anyone purchasing to bypass the installation checks.

                      They could have some older CS5.5 licenses and they are legitimately transferring the license as part of the sale.  It's conceivable they can get a better price on ebay by selling the Cs5.5 product along with an upgrade than if they simply sold the CS5.5 license alone but I'm guessing they aren't exactly playing by the rules here.

                      • 9. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                        Mips Community Member

                        I couldn't agree with you more, if Toshcomputers or any vendors/persons are in the business of selling registered (second hand/used) Adobe software. But I don’t believe Toshcomputers are trading in second hand software.

                        The following are two extracts from “Transfer an Adobe product license” web page:

                        1. “License transfer policy: Adobe limits an individual to a maximum of four license transfers in a lifetime.”
                        2. "Requirements to transfer a license: The product serial number must be registered in your Adobe profile to transfer the license."

                        Basically it’s not viable for any vendor to legally sell registered (second hand/used) Adobe software.
                        According to the following eBay web link, Toshcomputers have sold 4 copies and 202 are still available on eBay.  No vendors or persons could possibly legally sell 206 copies of used/second hand CS5.5 serial numbers.


                        http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130824818622

                        The following is an extract from Toshcomputers eBay product description:

                        • “This is a boxed, Adobe-sealed full Commercial CS6 upgrade retail box and a Commercial CS5.5 serial number, together making a fresh CS6 Commercial license. No other Adobe software is required. This set allows for full Adobe account creation and Adobe support, software registration, upgrades, etc.”


                        Toshcomputers are not making any claims the CS5.5 serial numbers are previously used/registered.  These CS5.5 serial numbers may have come from legal unsold software copies or perhaps they are illegally recycled/created serial numbers.  We can speculate, but we don’t know for certain. Toshcomputers’s eBay customer feedback is high, customers are not complaining and Adobe by now must know of Toshcomputers trading practices.

                         

                        "So who is really not playing by the rules?"

                         

                        Is Toshcomputers selling illegal software?
                             - Why hasn’t Adobe taken action?
                             - Why Toshcomputers’s customers are not complaining?

                        OR


                        Is Adobe trying to discourage consumers from buying from non-preferred resellers?
                             - Has anyone else had a similar experience?
                             - Has non-preferred resellers ever needed to take legal action against Adobe?

                         

                        "Who can we trust Adobe or Toshcomputers?"

                        Only Adobe knows the answer and disturbingly they are completely silent!!! Apart from not answering my initial post I have emailed piracy@adobe.com 3 x times and sent a “Letter of complaint” to Adobe’s Sydney head office, more than 5 months has gone by and I have yet to receive a single reply!!!

                         

                        If you find a vendor which may have a genuine discount offer, don’t count on Adobe to provide a confirmation. Despite Adobe’s claims it supports all of its customers equally and fairly. Adobe’s “How to avoid piracy” web page states:

                         

                        • "Always buy software from a reputable Adobe Authorized Reseller. When in doubt, contact piracy@adobe.com for guidance."

                         

                        • "To verify the authenticity of serial numbers, or if you have any other questions or concerns, contact piracy@adobe.com."

                         

                        http://www.adobe.com/au/aboutadobe/antipiracy/avoid.html?showMyTab=tab id1#

                         

                        Well, I sent 3 separate emails to contact piracy@adobe.com.

                        So why hasn’t Adobe replied?

                        Who can we trust?

                         

                        Attention Adobe customer service:


                        “Are vendors permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?”

                         

                        Regards,

                        • 10. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                          ProDesignTools CommunityMVP

                          Trying to buy Adobe software off of eBay or from similar unauthorized sites/vendors is extremely risky and not a good idea...  A couple years ago Adobe stopped recognizing these as valid purchases because of all the bogus items
                           

                          Why Never to Buy Adobe Software on eBay, Craigslist or Amazon Marketplace

                          • 11. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                            Mips Community Member

                            Manufactures (Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, etc.) cannot mandate who can and can’t sell their genuine products.  Therefore Adobe cannot deny support or demand its customers to purchase from one of Adobe’s Authorized Resellers, not only it’s anti-competitive but also it’s illegal.

                             

                            If it wasn’t for the free market forces we all would be buying only IBM PC’s from an Authorized Reseller.  Manufactures who have a monopoly don’t have an incentive, apart from moral grounds, to provide value to consumers. Hence why Adobe’s ongoing price gouging for its perpetual software licences outside of the American market. And Adobe’s Creative Cloud removes the financial pressure to provide genuine cutting edge updates to its existing user base.  And the nonsense Adobe can deliver better new updates more regularly on Creative Cloud is just marketing spin. 

                             

                            eBay, Craigslist and Amazon all depend 100% on their sellers to trade fairly, hence why they monitor and police their sellers, in fact it’s safer to purchase from the these web sites then to purchase from a random web site.  Yes there are bogus sellers on eBay, Craigslist and Amazon, twice I was falsely sold items which did not match the description of sale. And both eBay and Amazon assisted me in obtaining a full refund, couldn’t ask for more!!!

                             

                            Attention Adobe customer service:

                             

                            “Are vendors permitted to sell CS6 Production Premium upgrade accompanied with a CS5.5 Production Premium serial number?”

                             

                            Regards,

                            • 12. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                              ProDesignTools CommunityMVP

                              Mips wrote:


                              Adobe cannot deny support or demand its customers to purchase from one of Adobe’s Authorized Resellers

                               

                              As described in the article linked above, those are not Authorized Resellers. 

                               

                              In fact, any "proof of purchase" from vendors like eBay, Craigslist, or Amazon Marketplace is considered invalid by Adobe and expressly rejected, because of all the fakes.

                              • 13. Re: CS6 Production Premium upgrade + CS5.5 serial number on sale on Ebay is it legal?
                                Que Ball Community Member

                                There is nothing inherently wrong with Ebay, Craigslist, Amazon market, or any similar sales venue.  Any sales by an authorized Adobe reseller of legitimate licenses on those venues will be recognized.  You do not automatically disqualify the sale just because of the venue it was purchased in.  You disqualify the sale because the seller is not selling an authentic product.  It's between you and the seller, the venue is incidental except that it insulates the seller and gives them some level of anonymity unlike if they were running a bricks and mortar storefront.

                                 

                                Authorized resellers are free to sell products through online markets like ebay.  But they will not be able to offer major discounts or sell for a fraction of the retail prices or break rules for upgrade eligibility. 

                                 

                                If I as an authorized adobe reseller decided to market and sell through these venues I would be providing the customer with an invoice from my company.  That invoice is going to be the same as if I sold it to you face to face.  The software I provide would be a legitimate license, purchased through authorized distribution channels.  In the case of a volume license or creative cloud for teams subscription it would be registered with the Adobe volume licensing service in the purchasers name and you would setup an account on the volume license or creative cloud service.  I would submit the sale through an Adobe authorized wholesale distributor with the end users contact info and adobe would send out the license confirmations directly to the end user through the contact info provided.  You could log into your account at any time to see the license, check the serial numbers, number of seats, and download a copy of the software and download a PDF certificate of ownership.  Adobe will be happy to have you as an end user and will have no concerns that you bought the license through ebay, etc.  I will have to pay the wholesale distributor the wholesale price for those licenses which isn't much cheaper than the retail prices. 

                                 

                                If it were brand new boxed product again the software would be purchased through authorized distributors and the serial numbers would be completely legitimate unique numbers that adobe would happily register.  Once registered you could log into your account at any time to verify you are the registered owner of the serial number with Adobe.  The registration would not fail because the license number was never registered before and it's in the database of licenses that adobe has printed and distributed. 

                                 

                                As mentioned in this thread before there are specific methods outlined by Adobe to properly transfer the registration of an existing used license of boxed product or to transfer the ownership of a volume license.  If the seller claims to be selling a used copy and cannot process the necessary transfer of ownership paperwork then you are likely buying fake/stolen licenses.

                                 

                                As mentioned a large amount of conterfiet software is sold on those marketplaces and if you cannot register the serial number, cannot get the seller to do a transfer of ownership to you, etc then it's fake.  There are likely many legitimate copies sold but they will be for very close to the regular retail prices you find the software sold for in the store.  There just is not a very large profit margin on the sales of the software for the legitimate reseller to be able to do significant discounts.  The markup between the wholesale prices and the retail pricing is far less than 20%.  So any discounts over and above 20% that you see on ebay etc. should be very suspicious. 

                                 

                                So this thread was specifically dealing with a likely case where a seller is likely breaking the upgrade eligibility rules.  If they were including legitimate previous full version software and legitimate upgrade copies then it would be fine but the circumstances and description seem to indicate that isn't the case.  At best the seller is providing a legitimate upgrade copy but it's not legal to use it if you do not have the eligible previous version software to upgrade from and that's where the rules are likely being broken.  Chances are the serial number of the previous version software is a pirated/stolen license key.

                                 

                                Going forward with the creative cloud subscription licensing it's going to be pretty easy to tell what is a legitimate license or not.  If someone is offering to sell a boxed or disk version product copy of any of the CC editions of the software then it's pirated end of story.