-
1. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
shooternz Oct 9, 2012 11:19 PM (in response to Cris is Bliss)Maybe if it is 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 and high bitrates
Depends what you are comparing it to and where it came from. e.g source footage.
BTW : "spectrum" is not the way to describe it.
-
2. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Cris is Bliss Oct 9, 2012 11:29 PM (in response to shooternz)the camera I have is a Sony EX-1 , which I know can be used without transcoding in Premiere even when multiple formats are in the time line. But I usually only use the those and maybe some Quicktime .mov movies together.
-
3. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Dave Merchant Oct 10, 2012 1:09 AM (in response to Cris is Bliss)The EX1 records 8-bit MPEG-2 at 4:2:0 so converting that to ProRes wouldn't give you any gains in color resolution and quality, it'd simply give you a larger file that's fractionally easier to scrub through. If you record to an external device via the SDI ports you can capture 10-bit 4:4:2 from the EX1 and EX1r, and external recorders almost always use ProRes or DNxHD to preserve that extra quality.
-
4. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Stephen_Spider Oct 10, 2012 1:26 AM (in response to Cris is Bliss)Well, the footage will never look better than the original, so I scoff a bit at "being able to use the expanded color spectrum of the clips...". I have heard people claim to you convert to a 422 or uncompressed codec the footage will stand up to color correction/gradingg better. But as far as simple editing goes, you shouldn't gain anything by converting to a higher grade codec. The best the conversions can look is just like the source.
My best advise is to edit natively when ever you can.
-
5. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ExactImage Oct 10, 2012 2:24 AM (in response to Stephen_Spider)Premiere Pro brings the footage in and converts it to 32 bit floating point colour, even from your 4:2:0 footage, so there is no gain in Premiere Pro by going via a 4:2:2 codec such as ProRes. Other applications do things differently, so there may be benefit in other apps, but not Premiere Pro.
-
6. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Dave Merchant Oct 10, 2012 3:26 AM (in response to ExactImage)There's no gain in terms of color depth or subsampling, but transcoding to a lower-complexity codec can help with timeline scrubbing on less-powerful computers, provided you have a very fast disk (the files will invevitably be a lot bigger). For example the H.264 footage from many DSLRs and bullet cams, while perfectly supported by Premiere, puts a huge demand on your CPU when jogging about the timeline.
-
7. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 10, 2012 5:11 AM (in response to Cris is Bliss)Perform the following test:
1. Transcode your footage into ProRes (measure transcoding time) and import both of them into AE
2. Set project to 32 bit colour space and tick Linearize Working Space checkbox
3. Drop both source footage and the transcoded one into a composition and set upper layer blending mode to 'Difference' - you'll notice artifacts, which indicate there are some data shift (i.e. loss in quality) happened during transcodung (visually unnoticeable though; uncheck Linearize Working Space, and you'll get solid black screen)
4. Temporarily disable eyeball for your transcoded footage layer, pull a key or/and apply some significant colour correction and/or a retiming effect onto your source footage. Measure the time for rendering RAM preview.
5. Copy effects and paste them onto your transcoded footage, enable the layer eyeball - you'll notice artifacts, probably, worser than you had had before you started your grading work.
6. Disable your source footage layer eyeball and measure how much does it take to render RAM preview for your graded transcoded footage. In my particular spec the difference between rendering RAM preview for graded AVCHD source footage and the transcoded one is about 16%.
7. Render lossless (or about lossless) intermediates out of your graded source footage and the transcoded one in turn, measure the render time. In my particular spec the difference between a single render is about 25-30%. If I take into account time for transcoding, the difference decreases to about 16%. Bear in mind that influence of transcoding time diminishes if one needs more than a single render.
8. Reimport your rendered intermediates into AE project and drop them into the same composition above existing layers. Set blending modes of both layers to 'Difference'.
9. Enable eyeballs just for your rendered intermediates layers - you'll notice artifacts.
10. Now compare like with like: enable eyeballs of your graded source footage and the intermediate rendered out of your graded source footage, then disable them and enable eyeballs of graded transcoded footage and the intermediate rendered out of it - you'll probably notice similar slite artifacts in both cases.What does all the above mean?
1. Transcoding a source footage doesn't give one any advantages in terms of quality for colour grading. Resulting quality is consistent in both cases, but some quality loss happen during transcoding.
2. Transcoding yields savings on render time, which may be important in some workflows. -
8. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ComputerNovice25 Oct 10, 2012 7:56 PM (in response to Cris is Bliss)Skip to around 5:45 in this video and it will answer your question.
-
9. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Stephen_Spider Oct 10, 2012 11:43 PM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Jeez Fuzzy, I might free up a day or two to do your test in a few weeks... Oh heck forget it, I believe you.
-
11. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Stephen_Spider Oct 11, 2012 3:07 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Props.
-
12. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ComputerNovice25 Oct 11, 2012 7:03 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Well he is a "adobe evangelists" you have to expect "bold".
-
14. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ComputerNovice25 Oct 11, 2012 7:34 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Agreed
-
15. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 9:33 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Unfortunately most colorists and compositors disagree with working with high compression lower color sampling material. Many of the artifacts picked up with the test mentioned are beyond the visual spectrum. However having far greater color sampling with greater color range for Colorist work is always going to show up visually to the end user. Compositors deal with the same type of visual negatives versus mathematical artifacts beyond the visual when compositing 1 lossless media with a higher compression media. The Banding shows through between the images and that is definitely in the visual quality spectrum. The point of all of this is it will depend on the amount of color or compositing work and the delivery media that ultimately decides whether it's better to transcode to a lower compression, higher color sampling codec for the material or just work with the native. The Media comparison test is an excellent way to look for artifacts in the encoding but that does not mean those artifacts show in the visual spectrum.
Eric
ADK
-
16. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 11, 2012 10:18 AM (in response to ECBowen)Well, Eric, the question why most colorists and compositors reject dealing with highly compressed footages when they are supposed to be significantly graded lies in a bit different plane than the question of gaining advantages via transcoding highly compressed footages into a production codec.
When a footage is intended for pulling a key or significant colour correction, it's unwise to shoot with compressed codec - it makes no sense to even discuss that.
When it comes to converting already captured highly compressed footages into a production codec, in most cases this is the matter of misinformation or misunderstanding on how Adobe Suite actually works. I recently discussed the question with Rick Gerard in AE Forum within this thread with a strange choice of a 'correct' answer...
-
17. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ComputerNovice25 Oct 11, 2012 10:24 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)So was what Jason said in the video incorrect or not true in some way? I'm just wanting to make sure I have a solid understanding of the issue.
Because I understand the concept of why 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:0 is better so I guess what my actual question is... is that does Premiere's conversion of 8-bit 4:2:0 footage on the fly into 32-bit just as effective as actually transcoding the media? Or is that not correct?
-
18. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 11, 2012 10:47 AM (in response to ComputerNovice25)Jason was correct with one exception: he said no a single word that neither PrPro nor AME is Colour Management aware application. PrPro upsamples footages 'on the fly', placing them into 32 bit colour space, but this is sRGB colour space and one simply have to take that into account.
-
19. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:01 AM (in response to ECBowen)most colorists and compositors disagree with working with high compression lower color sampling material.
That's probably true, but it's also likely that they're not doing their coloring using Premiere Pro. They're almost certainly using other software that may well treat the material differently than PP, where conversion then becomes beneficial. Jason's point was that for editing and effects work using Adobe tools, conversion is unnecessary. It won't gain you any quality advantage, but it will cost you time and space.
-
20. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:10 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Well I am not sure how the points of transcoding to a better production codec is outside gaining advantages question. That is the entire point of doing just that. This is the reason Cineform was such a successful solution as 1 example. Another point has to do with 3rd party applications. Often times the workflow takes the production out of the Adobe suite for specific alterations which is often better suited with a Production codec.
The footage point is obvious but not often practical now since the new norm with productions are hired gun media acquisition personnel who deliver raw content to the client who then hires a 3rd party editor for the post production. This means the editor often has far less control of the media they are dealing with. If that media requires significant color grading and the editor will be using a layer based color application then a production codec is far better suited.
I am fully aware of how the suite works and it does not change the facts that often dealing with media in a lower compression higher color sampling codec is better suited for the workflow and delivery requirement. Case and point many clients I have dealt with had far better Green Screen workflow media results transcoding the material to Cineform.
Eric
ADK
-
21. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:08 AM (in response to JSS1138)Yes but if the editor is going to change the media for Color work then all of the editing might as well be done in the new intermediary.
Eric
ADK
-
22. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:16 AM (in response to ECBowen)Often times the workflow takes the production out of the Adobe suite
But in this case, that was not the question. Cris wanted to know if transcoding first is the better option for working in PP and AE. I think it's been pretty well answered that in general, it's not.
-
23. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:17 AM (in response to ECBowen)Yes but if the editor is going to change the media for Color work then all of the editing might as well be done in the new intermediary.
Even when it goes outside of Adobe tools, transcoding first has the ever present disadvantage of doing more work than you need to do, meaning transcoding all the footage when only some of it will be used. If you need to go outside of Adobe tools for other work, it's probably more efficient to just transcode the footage you need for that purpose, instead of all of it before editing even begins.
-
24. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:13 AM (in response to JSS1138)And I just gave an example of why it is with just the Adobe suite with the Green Screen workflow.
Eric
ADK
-
25. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:15 AM (in response to ECBowen)Which Fuzzy properly responded to.
-
26. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:17 AM (in response to JSS1138)The problem with only transcoding the material that will be further edited is you may lose symmetry between the different material. That is exactly what you are trying to avoid with the color grading.
Eric
ADK
-
27. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:17 AM (in response to JSS1138)Responded to how? I am not seeing the debate points negating mine.
Eric
ADK
-
28. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 11, 2012 11:24 AM (in response to ECBowen)Eric, I never argued against time savings in some workflows. However, I don't see any advantages in terms of 'quality'.
-
29. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:22 AM (in response to ECBowen)You're still assuming color grading will go to outside tools. Cris' question was pretty straightforward. Does ProRes offer a quality advantage in PP and AE?
For the most part, the answer seems to be no, it doesn't. Sure their may be exceptions to that, there always are when it comes to this sort of thing. But transcoding as a rule of thumb for editing and effects work in PP and AE just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
-
30. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
JSS1138 Oct 11, 2012 11:19 AM (in response to ECBowen)Responded to how?
"When a footage is intended for pulling a key or significant colour correction, it's unwise to shoot with compressed codec - it makes no sense to even discuss that."
-
31. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:24 AM (in response to JSS1138)I responded to that with the lack of control post production editors have now with the original raw media. If they have complete control over the entire acquisition to delivery and the budget allows it then yes that is understood. Things are not that simple anymore though. Media Acquisition is all over the place hence why so many people are asking questions on how to deal with the higher compression material.
Eric
ADK
-
32. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:26 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)The advantages in quality have to deal with cleaner composited images and greater accuracy for color with the artist's intent.
Eric
ADK
-
33. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 11, 2012 11:28 AM (in response to ECBowen)Let's run a test.
-
34. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:33 AM (in response to JSS1138)If I am Green Screening and have AVCHD or DSLR material then I want that media in Cineform for the cleanest final product whether it's done in AE or Premiere. That Rule of thumb though was brought about well before the workflows used today along with codecs available. Editors have to be careful about retaining methods or views regarding generation loss with today's processing algorithms from information that is 5 years old or more. Oftentimes any generation loss is beyond the viewable spectrum. If I get a cleaner viewable product from transcoding before editing why would I worry about mathematical artifacts that are not seen?
Eric
ADK
-
35. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
ECBowen Oct 11, 2012 11:35 AM (in response to Fuzzy Barsik)Excellent idea. Download this and transcode some AVCHD or DSLR preferably with Green Screen. Then composite the images both with the original media and the new Cineform media. The try is a trial btw.
http://cineform.com/products/gopro-cineform-studio-premium
Eric
ADK
-
36. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Fuzzy Barsik Oct 11, 2012 11:41 AM (in response to ECBowen)Meanwhile you may have a look at my results within the thread in AE Forum, link to which I submitted earlier.
-
37. Re: Apple Pro Res use in PRemiere for expanded color specturm
Cris is Bliss Oct 11, 2012 6:16 PM (in response to JSS1138)Thanks guys for all the info. - wow! interesting opinions.






