22 Replies Latest reply on Oct 12, 2012 12:38 PM by Richard Groff

    Bizarre "Sub" Layers?

    Richard Groff Level 1

      Working on a file set up by someone else and having a lot of problems. First off, the file is huge (195MB) but is predominantly text. Saving a one-page PDF results in a file size of 57MB. Looking at the Layers panel, there seem to be SUB layers, which I've never seen before:

       

      Screen shot 2012-10-11 at 8.41.32 AM.png

       

      Screen shot 2012-10-11 at 8.42.23 AM.png

       

      What on earth does this mean?

       

      Working in CS5.5 in Mac OS X 10.6.8.

        • 1. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Those aren't sublayers. That's the new and improved Illustrator-style Layers panel showing you the iindividual objects on the layer and in the order they are stacked.

          • 2. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
            Richard Groff Level 1

            Oh, thanks, Peter. I never noticed that before. Still trying to figure out why the file is so huge, though. And why exporting a one-page PDF--even at "Smallest File Size" results in a 57MB size. I tried exporting to IDML and reopening, but it's still gigantic, and it's all just text (544 pages). I'll keep slogging away....

            • 3. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
              Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Looks like some of the objects placed are PDFs. What is in the links panel?

              • 4. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                Richard Groff Level 1

                There are two links missing from the frontmatter. One's a TIF and one's a PDF. Both are small. We're doing corrections on the body matter, so those aren't a concern. Everything else is text. One thing that scares me is that the text throughout is tagged as Basic Paragraph, except for chapter numbers, chapter titles, and "full out" paragraphs (yes, it's a Brit book).

                • 5. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  In theory there's no reason not to use [Basic Paragraph], as long as it's being used properly (i.e. not constantly overridden manually to make it look like something else). Style names are not particularly important as long as styles are used, and used correctly. The issues with Basic Paragraph crop up when moving text between files.

                   

                  As for the file size, how many of those links are vectors? Vectors don't compress.

                  • 6. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                    Richard Groff Level 1

                    Each graphic is less than 1MB in size. Plus they're missing, so it wouldn't seem they'd have any bearing on the size. I think I'll just get the dang thing corrected and back out of here before something else happens!

                     

                    Thanks for your help, guys!

                    • 7. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Missing or not, each graphic link has a preview associated with it unless you've exported to .idml or .inx and stripped them out. Those can add to file size.

                      • 8. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                        Richard Groff Level 1

                        I deleted both missing graphics, but no luck. Still 195MB in size. I've tried doing a Save As..., saving down to CS5, opening in CS6, exporting to Tagged Text and looking in there to see if there was anything unusual, but there wasn't. I DID notice that "Basic Paragraph" was called "NormalParagraphStyle" in the Tagged Text file. I scoured the pasteboard to see if there might be something there, but it's empty. I think it's just jinxed.

                         

                        The file is put together in a very amateurish way--lots of pluses next to style names, chapters aren't linked, chapter opener sinks done by hand instead of a master page--so whoever threw this together probably managed to introduce a hidden gremlin somewhere.

                        • 9. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                          Jeffrey_Smith Most Valuable Participant

                          The file is put together in a very amateurish way--lots of pluses next to style names, chapters aren't linked, chapter opener sinks done by hand instead of a master page--so whoever threw this together probably managed to introduce a hidden gremlin somewhere.

                          I guess Pete Townshend knows how to play guitar, but doesn't know Indesign well enough to put together his memoir...

                          • 10. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            > chapters aren't linked,

                             

                            That's just as well.

                            • 11. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              so whoever threw this together probably managed to introduce a hidden gremlin somewhere.

                               

                              Pasted images don't show in the links panel and add their full weight to the file size—one 100mb file would make the ID doc 100mb. It would be possible to have pasted images hidden on a spread and nothing would show. They do show as sublayers in the Layers panel, so this page looks empty but there is a hidden pasted object:

                               

                              Screen shot 2012-10-11 at 1.12.27 PM.png

                              • 12. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                Richard Groff Level 1

                                Hmmm. Interesting, Rob. That's a possibility. Is there any way of SEARCHING for such a thing?

                                • 13. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                  Richard Groff Level 1

                                  Just paged through the book and didn't find any pasted graphics. Oh, well. Hopefully it's going to the printer this afternoon and we'll be done with it.

                                   

                                  Still, the edifying things one can discover here in Discussions! Thanks, everyone! These new nuggets of information will undoubtedly come in handy some day.

                                  • 14. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                    winterm Level 4

                                    Richard Groff wrote:

                                    Is there any way of SEARCHING for such a thing?

                                    You can create new Preflight Profile (or modify existing) with Hidden Page Items checked (in Images and Objects). However, it won't select those objects, just show you the pages where they are (if any).

                                    • 15. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                      Jump_Over Level 5

                                      Hi,

                                       

                                      Did you ever use ESTK (ExtendedScript ToolKit) ?

                                      Running one_line code would help you to find more info about your doc contents.

                                      For example:

                                       

                                      app.activeDocument.allPageItems.length      ==> should display (javascript console panel) count of your doc objects

                                      and

                                      app.activeDocument.textFrames.length      ==> should display count of text boxes

                                       

                                      you could compare these numbers... If there would be big different it could be a sign to keep looking for a reason using this way

                                       

                                      hope...

                                      • 16. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Since you are using OSX this AppleScript will delete all pasted graphics hidden or not from the active document and then display how many objects were deleted. If you try the script test it on a copy of the doc first

                                         

                                         

                                        tell application "Adobe InDesign CS5.5"

                                            activate

                                            set myDocument to active document

                                            set pastedimages to all page items of every page item of myDocument

                                            set cnt to 0

                                            repeat with i from 1 to number of items in pastedimages

                                                try

                                                    set myLink to item 1 of item i of pastedimages

                                                    if item link of myLink is nothing then

                                                        delete myLink

                                                        set cnt to cnt + 1 as string

                                                    end if

                                                end try

                                            end repeat

                                            display dialog cnt & " pasted objects were deleted"

                                        end tell

                                        • 17. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                          Richard Groff Level 1

                                          Thanks, Jump_Over and Rob! I ran both scripts and came up with null. The job's off to the printers anyway, but I'm still drawn back to that file to see if I can sleuth out the reason for such a gigantic file size.

                                           

                                          I packaged it just to see if anything odd might happen and noticed an external plug-in called ExtensisFontManagementIDCS4.InDesignPlugin. I don't use any sort of font management plug-in; I always use the Document Fonts folder. I thought it was odd that a CS5.5 file would reference a plug-in from CS4. Wonder if there could be anything to do with that.

                                          • 18. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                            Larry G. Schneider Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            You might try looking at that one page PDF you referenced earlier in Acrobat. Specifically the Document Properties>Fonts tab and tell us what it looks like.

                                            • 19. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                              Richard Groff Level 1

                                              Curiouser and curiouser! Acrobat wouldn't open the file. Said it was in an unsupported format. Preview, however, opened it just fine. It's only one page, and it's all text, but the file size is 57MB! Here's where it gets interesting: I resaved it from Preview as a PDF and the file size is now 20KB. If I compare them using TextWrangler, I find a gigantic section of XML coding in the large file. None at all in the smaller one.

                                              • 20. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                                Richard Groff Level 1

                                                Oh, and I thought there might be a problem with the fonts, so I replaced them all with Minion Pro, but still had the huge file sizes.

                                                 

                                                Here's what a snippet of the XML looks like:

                                                 

                                                <</Length 57295819/Subtype/XML/Type/Metadata>>stream

                                                <?xpacket begin="Ôªø" id="W5M0MpCehiHzreSzNTczkc9d"?>

                                                <x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="Adobe XMP Core 5.2-c003 61.141987, 2011/02/22-12:03:51        ">

                                                   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">

                                                      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""

                                                            xmlns:xmpMM="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/mm/"

                                                            xmlns:stRef="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceRef#"

                                                            xmlns:stEvt="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceEvent#">

                                                         <xmpMM:InstanceID>uuid:2a3c3449-4a82-a845-9e4c-9ee9684bbfba</xmpMM:InstanceID>

                                                         <xmpMM:DocumentID>xmp.did:08801174072068118083B640338DF6A3</xmpMM:DocumentID>

                                                         <xmpMM:OriginalDocumentID>adobe:docid:indd:ac17387f-7a06-11df-9f72-a6e89937f4f9</xmpMM:Or iginalDocumentID>

                                                         <xmpMM:RenditionClass>proof:pdf</xmpMM:RenditionClass>

                                                         <xmpMM:DerivedFrom rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                                            <stRef:instanceID>xmp.iid:05801174072068118083B640338DF6A3</stRef:instanceID>

                                                            <stRef:documentID>xmp.did:04801174072068118083FE5AA126E6E0</stRef:documentID>

                                                            <stRef:originalDocumentID>adobe:docid:indd:ac17387f-7a06-11df-9f72-a6e89937f4f9</stRef:or iginalDocumentID>

                                                            <stRef:renditionClass>default</stRef:renditionClass>

                                                         </xmpMM:DerivedFrom>

                                                         <xmpMM:History>

                                                            <rdf:Seq>

                                                               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                                                  <stEvt:action>saved</stEvt:action>

                                                                  <stEvt:instanceID>xmp.iid:0180117407206811871FD3C85BA18871</stEvt:instanceID>

                                                                  <stEvt:when>2010-06-16T12:50:32+01:00</stEvt:when>

                                                                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Adobe InDesign 6.0</stEvt:softwareAgent>

                                                                  <stEvt:changed>/</stEvt:changed>

                                                               </rdf:li>

                                                               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                                                  <stEvt:action>saved</stEvt:action>

                                                                  <stEvt:instanceID>xmp.iid:0280117407206811871FD3C85BA18871</stEvt:instanceID>

                                                                  <stEvt:when>2010-06-16T12:50:32+01:00</stEvt:when>

                                                                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Adobe InDesign 6.0</stEvt:softwareAgent>

                                                                  <stEvt:changed>/metadata</stEvt:changed>

                                                               </rdf:li>

                                                               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">

                                                                  <stEvt:action>saved</stEvt:action>

                                                 

                                                This goes on page after page, then there's page after page of <nps_cov:page_preview> followed by alphanumeric gobbledygook, followed by </nps_cov:page_preview>.

                                                 

                                                And this is all in a one-page PDF.

                                                • 21. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                                  Larry G. Schneider Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  The second file size sounds closer to right. My supposition was that a bunch of fonts got embedded fully in the file and that's where the size came from.

                                                   

                                                  The alphanumeric bit are the binary preview data for each page of the original file. Did you ever try doing a Save As and overwriting the original file to remove the built up crud like this?

                                                  • 22. Re: Bizarre "Sub" Layers?
                                                    Richard Groff Level 1

                                                    Yup! First thing I do when I get a file I didn't do originally is perform a Save As. I also tried exporting as IDML and bringing that in to CS5 (file was still huge), tried it with CS5.5 (still large), did yet another IDML export, same problem, opened it in CS6, saved IDML from CS6 and tried opening THAT in CS5.5, and on and on. We often have strange problems with files from the UK, and I guess this one's no exception.

                                                     

                                                    But, like I said, it's gone to the printer and we probably won't have to bother with it again.

                                                     

                                                    Thanks for the suggestions, though!