20 Replies Latest reply on Oct 18, 2012 2:45 PM by LevKalman

    16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE

    LevKalman

      Hello,

       

      I'm cutting a feature-length project that I shot in 16mm and have had scanned to DPX format. I'm just begininning the process and I want to make sure I'm organizing things in a way that will work best in the long term. Here's where I am:

       

      1. I have all my DPX in folders, sorted by Lab Roll and named by Timecode. The lab tells me as long as my reference files refer back to that code and are set to the proper roll, I'm all set for any kind of post work that might need doing.
      2. In After Effects, I've opened each Lab Roll as a composition, which maintains the proper timecode, applied a quick grade and some other small corrections (cropping, light color correction, etc) and created compositions for each shot.

       

      What I want to do is to bring those shots into Premiere and do my edit in a way that allows me to go back to the original After Effects composition and apply tweaks to the image as needed. I do not want to work directly with DPX files in Premiere because it kills my playback speed and also hampers my ability to work with collaborators during the edit. I'd much rather deal with lo-res files for decision making. So my question is: What is the best way to move the shots from After Effects to Premiere that maintains the relationship?

       

      One pressing example is that I'm currently cutting a trailer. So I want to make the editing decisions with offline-quality video in Premiere, and once those are locked, open the sequence up in After Effects, and do my final sweetening using the original DPX files. I'm not sure I understand a way to do this that doesn't involve manually replacing each shot on the timeline.

       

      Thanks for any advice!

      Lev

       

      P.S. I understand SpeedGrade might be part of a solution here, but I am on a Mac, so if possible I'd like to avoid that.

        • 1. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          I've never done it but if I had to do it this way, I'd probably export out a DI files from AE for each comp/clip.  If 8 bit was sufficient, I'd probably go with the UT codec.  It's free and lossless, plus cross-platform.  You'd bring those into PP for editing.  You could even work with them in full res HD with decent playback, no low-res proxies needed.  And since they're lossless, you could go straight to a deliverable from the PP edit.  If you ever needed to tweak anything in AE, just overwrite the original file with the new.


          http://umezawa.dyndns.info/archive/utvideo/

           

          If you need 10 bit, you can export out using the V210 codec, but file sizes will grow significantly and playback might suffer.  (Still smaller than DPX, though.)  Another possibility is an MXF OP1a preset using the AVC-I 100 codec, but I had some troubles with this myself, so you'd have to experiment.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
            LevKalman Level 1

            Thanks Jim! I downloaded the UT codec and am running some tests now.

             

            I suppose most broadly, replacing files out from AE is a workable solution.

             

            Still, I'm hoping to find something more "round-trippy" because I'm unsure about what the deliverable format will be. If I understand this correctly, if I choose 8-bit now and it turns out I need 10-bit, or even a DPX sequence, I'd need to re-export everything from AEFX, replace all my files, then reconnect them in PP.

             

            What I'd love is some way to edit a sequence in PP using whatever codec, and then in AE reconnect each video with its DPX source -- maybe by using timecode?

            • 3. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

              Keep in mind that if you switch from DPX Log to a Linear codec then the colorspace will be different when working between AE and Premiere. I would keep all of the color work in AE if your not going to take the DPX into Premiere.


              Eric

              ADK

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                LevKalman Level 1

                Thanks Eric, that is a concern of mine because I probably won't even be the person doing the final color work.

                I need to do log-linear so my collaborators and I can see what we're working with, but I don't necessarily want any of those decisions I'm making in terms of white-point/black-point, etc, to be final.

                So how would you recommend me going from AE to PP and back?

                • 5. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  Well Jim's recommendation would be the easiest to deal with. You can also export out AVCIntra Op1A but then when you bring it back into AE, you have to wait for AE to render for preview. I would suggest the V210 that Jim recommends since I believe AE's AVI Lossless export uses that and then you can bring it back and forth. If required later, you could master by replacing the AVI files with DPX files in Premiere at the end. If a colorist is going to handle the color work then they will want the DPX files. Just be ready with those when you get to the end of the production.

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  • 6. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                    LevKalman Level 1

                    Thank you! I want to make sure I understand the whole process:

                     

                    1) I export V210 files, and then import those just as videos into PP. If I need to make tweaks I can send those files to AE as new projects and do whatever's needed because it's lossless.

                    2) At the very end I export DPX sequences without any log-lin into PP and give that to a colorist.

                     

                    Is that correct?

                     

                    If I want to be working even lighter/faster at this point, any reason I can't use a lower-res 8-bit codec at this point, and then later swap in the V210 files?

                     

                    Best,

                    Lev

                    • 7. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                      Well to keep the changes you made to the files in AE when your back in Premiere and want to replace the Media files with DPX, you will have to Dynamic Link after the initial transcode of the files to Lossless. If you follow that or just use edit lists then you can transcode those files to something easier to deal with. Although the only real load those AVI lossless files will create is disc load. What HDD setup are you working with?

                       

                      Eric
                      ADK

                      • 8. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                        LevKalman Level 1

                        Hi Eric,

                         

                        My DPX files alone take up two 2 TB HDDs, and at this stage I'd like to be doing all the editing off of one other 2 TB HDD.  That's why I'm interested in smaller file sizes. This way when I want to send an edit to my collaborator, it is more easily portable and replicatable.

                         

                        Anyhow, I'm afraid I'm still not clear: How would I Dynamic Link after the transcode? Would that be to the original AE project where I dealt with the DPX, or to something else? And if the latter, how would I replace those files with DPX when I'm done? Are Proxies in AE a part of this workflow?

                         

                        Thanks for all the support,

                        Lev

                        • 9. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                          You would Dynamic Link any files in the Premiere Timeline that needed further work in AE over to AE in a new comp. Once you have the Premiere work done as needed then you just replace the files at each location in the Premiere timeline with the DPX files.

                           

                          Eric

                          ADK

                          • 10. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                            LevKalman Level 1

                            Got it! And so for that last step, I'd just open the original AE project and export files with the same names + timecode, but this time as DPX? What is the output format for that? I only know DPX as indivual image sequences.

                             

                            L

                            • 11. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                              Output them as DPX out of AE. When you import into Premiere you can import the DPX files since Premiere can handle import series of stills or DPX type formats.

                               

                              Eric

                              ADK

                              • 12. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                LevKalman Level 1

                                Eric, thanks for all your help with this. I just tried the whole workflow and I'm stuck at the last step. To go over what I did:

                                 

                                1. From AE, cut my DPX files into clips and outputted v210 files for each.

                                2. Imported those into PP

                                3. Made a sequence with them and sent that to a new AE comp, dynamically linked, to make any further changes.

                                4. In AE, opened that original project and exported a DPX sequence for the clips.

                                 

                                Is that all correct? If so, it's working great.

                                Now I'm at the stage of re-importing, and I don't know what to do. If I click "Replace" on the clip and select the first file in the DPX sequence, it simply replaces the clip with that one image. If I simply import the DPX sequence, it does come in as a clip, properly named and all, but then how do I swap it in?

                                I'm attaching a screenshot of where I'm stuck.

                                 

                                Best,

                                Lev

                                 

                                Screen Shot 2012-10-12 at 2.13.56 PM.png

                                • 13. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                  you could master by replacing the AVI files with DPX files in Premiere at the end.

                                   

                                  You sure about that?  I recall other readers having issues replacing real video files with image sequences, and vice versa.

                                  • 14. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                    If I click "Replace" on the clip and select the first file in the DPX sequence, it simply replaces the clip with that one image.

                                     

                                    And that's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

                                    • 15. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                      josephs51576386 Level 3

                                      You should probably be able to replace it by importing the DPX sequence so it's already inside your bin as a image sequence/video clip. Then right clicking the clip you wish to replace in your timeline and then by chosing the replace with clip from bin option just make sure you have the DPX sequence selected inside the bin when you do this. If I remember correctly this will work even though the regular "replace footage" option will not.

                                      • 16. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                        LevKalman Level 1

                                        Thanks ComputerNovice25. That works for video files on my timeline. But I can't seem to get it to properly behave with the Dynamically Linked AE files, which would be a lot of the stuff.

                                        And even in that case, I'd have to replace all my clips one by one, right?

                                        Is there another way around this? This would be for when the edit is picture-locked. So maybe exporting some sort of file (EDL?) that AE or Avid or whatever the colorist wants could use to re-connect to the DPX files?

                                        • 17. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                          I can't seem to get it to properly behave with the Dynamically Linked AE files

                                           

                                          I think you went down the wrong path on this one.  You don't DL the V210 clips from PP back into AE for further adjustments, you go back to the original AE project and original DPX files and export out a new replacement V210 file for PP to use.

                                          • 18. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                            Yes you would have to replace the clips 1 at a time. You could definitely go the EDL route. You would just need to conform after.

                                             

                                            Eric

                                            ADK

                                            • 19. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                              josephs51576386 Level 3

                                              Yes you will have to re-link each clip one by one. No way around that sorry.  At this point I'd recommend EDL as well, so you don't end up having to redo a ton of work.

                                              • 20. Re: 16mm DPX Workflow: PP and AE
                                                LevKalman Level 1

                                                Thanks all. In trying the EDL method, I ran into more issues regarding timecode format. I've posted it as a new thread. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.