34 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2012 9:35 AM by ECBowen

    New System Build feedback/advice, please...

    Neal Reiland Level 1

      Time to build a new WorkStation. My motivation for upgrading is that I have been using a mediocore laptop (i7m, 8gb, 250gb ) from my work as my home system for the last 2 years, I am starting to get more freelance coming in and need a good desktop.

       

      I am not so sure about my processor, mother board and video card choice. I am more interested in app usability than absolute throughput and want to maximise my dollar investment.

       

      Purchase date: this week

       

      Budget:  I'd like to stay close to $1000-1300, but can spend more for significant performance gains. As I do more  research, my inclinations are trending higher.

       

      System Usage: My primary uses will include photo editing with Lightroom and Photoshop, 3D graphics using 3D studio Max, Maya and Mud Box, HD video editing using Premiere and After Affects and  Web Design. I will also use it as an HD media player and hifi audio is important. Maximizing cs6 performance in premiere & pShop is my main target. I am focused mainly on user experience while running these apps. If I need to encode hrs of video or crank out frames in max/maya, I can do it at work. I seldom run games.

       

      Monitors: I'm running two Dell U2410's IPS, calibrated w\Color Munki, one portrait one lanscape.

       

      Parts to Upgrade: Full system build

       

      O/S : Win7 Ultimate, I might play with Ubuntu/Virtualization

       

      Vendor: Newegg unless I can save big $$ else where. I like B&H.

       

      It needs to be an Intel machine & I have chosen lga 2011 becuase I'll eventually go to 64gb. I'll do some modest overclocking.

       

      Any advice is appreciated. Thank you for your expertise.

       

      Processor:

      Intel Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 2011 130W Quad-Core Desktop Processor BX80619i73820

      $299 w/ship

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115229

       

      or

      Intel Core i7-3930K Sandy Bridge-E 3.2GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) LGA 2011 130W Six-Core Desktop Processor BX80619i73930K

      $569 w/ship

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116492

       

      Do you have any feeling about how much I'll gain by going to the 6 core cpu over the 4 core? Remember, for me usability in the cs6 apps is more important than marginal gains in throughput.

       

      Mobo:

      MSI X79A-GD45 (8D) LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS

      $218 w/ship

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130635

       

      or

       

      ASRock X79 Extreme6 LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

      $240 w/ship

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157289

       

      or

      MSI Big Bang-XPower II LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 XL ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS

      $380

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130626

       

      I would really appreciate any feedback on mobos in regards to maximizing cs6...7...8 performance, system logiveity, and performance. Is it worth it to go for a higer end mobo? If so which one. I like the msi's based on eventually ug to 128 gb, but are they money well spent? Any probs w/these mobo's?

       

      Memory:

      G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL10Q-32GBXL

      $130

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231490

       

      Hard Drive:

      SAMSUNG 830 Series MZ-7PC256B/WW 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

      $160

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147164

       

      Video:

      GIGABYTE GV-N65TOC-1GI GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card

      $160 w/ship

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125447

       

      or

       

      MSI N660 Ti PE 2GD5/OC GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card

      Item#: N82E16814127696

      $300

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127696

       

      I am still a little unsure of the real world differnces that I'll realize by doubling my video card expense, advice please?

       

      Optical Drive:

      LG Black 14X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 5X DVD-RAM 12X BD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA BDXL Blu-Ray Burner with SW, 3D Play Back - BH14NS40

      $70

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136250

       

      Case:

      COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC/ ABS Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

      $60

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119233

       

      Power Supply:

      FX Core Edition PRO650W (P1-650S-NLB9) 650W ATX12V 2.2 & ESP12V 2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply

      $90

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207014

       

      Total     $1190

      or    $1760

       

      I have picked the MSI motherboard due to its support for 128gb ram, superior audio and other high end features. The AS Rock for its rep for solid value/performance. Opinions?

       

      Finally, I would like some advice on video cards. I prefer nVidia to ATI, but I'm not sure which chip to go for. The six fifties are cheaper, but the 660 ti provides more CUDA cores.

        • 1. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          I realize this is in a different league than you are planning, but nevertheless there may be interesting things about Planning & Building a new NLE system. There is a lot of information, so read all the pages.

           

          Let's go through your choices:

           

          • i7-3820 versus i7-3930K. The former is locked, the latter is unlocked, so overclocking is far easier on the 3930K. Then of course the difference between quad and hexa core and the difference in L3 cache. I would suggest the 3930K, also because of your intended 3D/Maya work.
          • Memory: Go for the RipjawsZ series for the 2011 platform, not the X series for the 1155 platform.
          • Mobo: Select on the features of the board, stuff like FW, USB3, SATA 6G, PCIe-3.0.
          • Video: I would definitely suggest the GTX 660 Ti. The 650 has only 80 GB/s memory bandwidth, the 660 Ti has 144.2 GB/s and is much faster.
          • PSU: Go for a Gold+ label PSU from a reputed brand, like Corsair or Seasonic and consider some more power, like 850W. See the article above for more info.
          • Boot disk: Samsung 830 is good. Alternatives are Plextor M5 Pro, Samsung 840 or Corsair Performance Pro.
          • Hard disks: where are they? Get at least 4 7200 RPM SATA disks in 2 x raid0 plus a good backup disk.

           

          Count on investing at least 35% of the total system cost in the disk setup alone. All X79 mobo's with a single CPU socket have at most 8 DIMM slots, so with current technology 64 GB maximum memory.

          • 2. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
            Neal Reiland Level 1

            thx Harm,

            I was hoping you'd reply.  I have read/skimmed most of your article and found it quite informative.  In terms of the motherboard, I'm quite flummoxed.  I think the MSI 8D will cover what I need in the short term and am not sure if I need additional 6GB SATA ports offered by the other boards.  I can always add a raid card and raid array later.

             

            I'm leaning toward the 660 TI, although it is a tough egg to swallow.  I picked up a Samsung 830 SSD today for $160.

             

            I already have two 7200 RPM Seagate barracuda drives running through E Sata.  This is enough to handle my video for now.  I leave the greater part of my video data at work.  I have my students turn in their completed projects on Blu-Ray disc or I have them sample their video down so that I can simply evaluate their edit decisions.

             

            In my personal work, I'm more of is still image shooter and my home use that does not work related is for the most part and light room and Photoshop.  I do use free 3d studio Max and Maya a lot at home, but again rendered   frame throughput is not of the essence.

             

            That said, I may have a very large freelance project coming up, and if so, I'll invest in a four disk raid array.

             

            Any more feelings on motherboards, why would you choose the Gigabyte over the ones that I have selected.

             

            Thanks again

            • 3. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
              Harm Millaard Level 7

              I opted for the Asus P9X79 WS because two things were crucial for me: 8 DIMM slots and a FW400 port. I still capture from HDV tape occasionally!

               

              Monster setup.png

              Monster CPU-Z.png

              • 4. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                JEShort01 Level 4

                Neal,

                 

                Ditto all of Harm's comments plus the following to add:

                - get a larger case; HAF 912 is too small; 922 would be OK, and 932 totally rocks

                - spend the extra for an ASUS MB; you will be taxing your system pretty hard and there is nothing more frustrating than having a quirky MB at the core of your system. I like Gigabyte too, but I think ASUS is better for the 2011 cpu boards now.

                - many do not mention how awesome RAID arrays are for photo work; there is actually quite a bit of bandwidth when going through DSLR images quickly one after the other

                - you really need a larger budget to do what you are trying to do well; if you are really firm on your ceiling, get good components all around and get the lesser cpu initially with plans to upgrade that and add more drives later.

                 

                Regards,

                 

                Jim

                • 5. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                  Neal Reiland Level 1

                  Will the x serries gSkill RAM  not work with 2011 system? Or does it mostly come down to  performance? If so, how much is the difference? Will the speed of the memory make a big difference?  For example, will it help to get 2400 speed ram vs. 1600 speed?

                   

                  I am also wondering about the real world differences between the GTX 660 series and the GTX 660 TI series.  For example will a render that takes 30 minutes with a 660 TI, take 40 minutes with a GTX 660 card?  Or is it more like 30 minutes vs. 32 minutes?  I know it's impossible to say, but I'd just like to get a feeling of how much bang for my buck I will be getting.

                   

                  Also, will the 660 TI offer performance advantages in other areas, such as with three D studio Max or when playing back HD movies?

                   

                  Thank you again for your suggestions and advice.

                  • 6. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                    Alex - DV411 Level 2

                    get a larger case

                     

                    I always thought smaller cases are better all other things being equal, and as long as the case addresses the needs for housing all the required components and future expansion:

                    • larger spaces (and cases) take more power to cool properly, in the same way larger buildings consume more power trying to cool or heat the internals
                    • larger cases are harder to service and transport: heavier, bulkier, etc.
                    • due to larger / more fans - more vibration and noise potential - more potential points of failure
                    • it's the same SUVs vs. compacts argument: why gas-gazzling space-hogging SUVs that for the most part have zero need for four-wheel traction and only transport one person 90% of the time?  The illusion of safety at the expense of poorer safety of everyone else on the road?

                     

                    In other words, why not get the minimum that serves the purpose (required components plus future expansion) rather than something larger just for the hell of it?

                     

                    Is there any reason to my points, or am I completely bonkers?

                    • 7. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                      There are a lot of components that generate heat in a computer, CPU, memory, video card, HDD's, PSU and possibly raid controller and third party cards. All these components need to be cooled for better reliability and longevity.

                       

                      The closer together these components are, the more difficult it is to cool efficiently, because of the limited airflow. Imagine stuffing 5 full grown football players in a Toyota Aygo on a hot summer day or in a Chrysler Voyager. The extra space in the Voyager makes for more tolerable temperatures inside. Getting in and out of the car is also a lot easier with a big car.

                       

                      Bigger case have IMO a number of advantages:

                       

                      • Easier to install, troubleshoot and maintain.
                      • Better cable management and better airflow, thus better cooling.
                      • More expansion room to add components in the future.
                      • More distance between heat generating components, eg. CPU and PSU, thus better cooling.
                      • Possibility to use bigger and slower fans, improving airflow and reducing noise.
                      • More choices of CPU coolers because of less size restrictions.

                       

                      Sure, bigger cases are heavier and bulkier, but since when are NLE systems regularly used on LAN parties? If you use casters under any tower, it will make for easy movement of the case. Example: Magnum TH-10 Case

                      • 8. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        Neil,

                         

                        Will the speed of the memory make a big difference?  For example, will it help to get 2400 speed ram vs. 1600 speed?

                         

                        In order of importance:

                         

                        1. Amount of memory, 32 GB is better than 16 GB and 64 GB is even better.
                        2. Speed rating, DDR3-2400 is faster than DDR3-1600, but the difference is small in performance and big in $$$.
                        3. Timing, the lower the CAS latency the better, but the difference is marginal.

                         

                        The 2011 platform is rather picky about memory, so once you have decided on a specific motherboard, check the QVL for memory that is compatible and especially if you want to run fully populated. There are very few memory sticks of 8 GB that make it to the QVL. If you are not 100% sure about a certain memory stick, I suggest you give both the memory manufacturer and the motherboard manufacturer a call or email to confirm that they will work together.

                         

                        The performance difference between the GTX 660 and the GTX 660 TI will be small. The TI has more CUDA cores but runs at a lower clock speed. Both cards have the same memory bandwidth. I would not expect a 30 versus 40 minute spread as you asked, but more a 30 versus 32 minute spread.

                        • 9. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                          Alex - DV411 Level 2

                          Harm,

                           

                          Good quality mid-tower cases do not put heat generating components close together, and aside from less expansion, have none of the negative points you attribute to them.  Just take a look at HAF 922 - although it still is more of a gamer case than that of a serious workstation.  For instance, HAF 942's add-on card holder doesn't allow installation of a side fan.  How on earth would an integrator ship a system like that to a client?

                          Imagine stuffing 5 full grown football players in a Toyota Aygo on a hot summer day or in a Chrysler Voyager.

                           

                          Rather, imagine "stuffing" those five football players in a decent size living room, vs. a cathedral.  Given limited available A/C, which one would be easier to cool?  More efficient?

                           

                          Thanks for bringing another point up: CPU coolers.  Those huge after-market ones always had me worry about them coming off in transit and bouncing around in the case obliterating the whole thing.  It did happen in fact, and those heat sinks rarely if ever have retaining brackets keeping them safe in shipping.  The key here is to either offer standardized heat sinks that are mounted better that with four screws to the case (Mac Pro) or, smaller heat sinks with a more efficient airflow (Mac Pro, Z820, xw8600), or - liquid cooling.

                           

                          I'd avoid full tower cases unless there is a real need for them.

                          • Better cable management and better airflow, thus better cooling.

                          It's an assumption based on what facts?  The best cable management there is, is in cases smaller than full towers - Mac Pro and Z820.

                          • 10. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                            Actually Harm is absolutely correct on advantages of Full Towers. One of the biggest problems with workstations is dealing with heat building up on drives because the proximity is so close for each drive that the heat from 1 drive raises the ambient temp around the drive above it which lower the heat dissipation capability the drive manufacturer has built with. This means the heat on the drive will continue to build as the dissipation breaks down further. So the drive on the bottom would likely be ok but the drives in the middle are trapped with higher ambient heat in their area. The comparison of a larger building versus a smaller building has to due with air conditioning and lowering the ambient temps over the entire square foot area quickly. There however if you take the Air conditioner out of the equation, (which systems dont have) then the ambient heat for the air will take longer to raise for the entire space than a much smaller area. Simply because there is far more air/space for general heat conditions to raise. This is the same concept with a large case.

                             

                            Now the key to cooling heat sinks is moving the heat off the heatsinks before the heat starts to build up on the metal. Once the efficiency of the cooling is unable to move the heat off the metal quick enough, then the entire heat sink dissipation efficiency breaks down since heat will continue to build on the metal. Having a large tower with open Space allows you to create large jet streams in the tower to constantly move the heat off the components. Yes this requires more fans and each fan adds power but I simply dont see how less than 5 Watt's per fan justifies any concern about greater power when the cooling efficiency is far better. Remember the goal for Cooling your system is moving the heat off the component. Once that heat is moved you want it to dissipate through the air. Having a larger space to dissipate that heat makes it far less likely that the overall ambient temps for the entire space raise.

                             

                            Eric
                            ADK

                            • 11. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                              Having a large tower with open Space allows you to create large jet streams in the tower to constantly move the heat off the components.

                              Eric,

                               

                              There are guesses, and then there is physics.  So how about some facts?

                               

                              1. The amount of air moving through any space is the function of primary air pressure (fans) and back-pressure (resistance created by friction, obstacles such as internal components, cables, grills, and turbulence).
                              2. Back pressure increases in larger spaces due to natural impedance of airflow (much like with electricity traveling over distance)
                              3. Open non-compartmentalized spaces are a recipe for hot spots - areas of turbulence with higher temperatures.
                              4. Good cable management and compartmentalized airflow optimization are keys to reducing back pressure and associated heat build-up and energy losses.

                               

                              Source: Airflow Issues: Silent Enemy of Efficient Cooling.

                               

                              Bottom line, larger open spaces are enemies of efficient airflow.

                               

                              It doesn't mean the airflow in larger spaces can't be optimized.  On the opposite.  All it means, is that all other thing being equal, it's easier to cool smaller spaces.  It may sound counter-intuitive but it's just science, dude.

                               

                              I really hope this helps to dispel the stubborn myth of full towers being the holy grail of video editing systems.

                              • 12. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                You are referencing a completely different scenario than case cooling and then trying to use that as the reference for case cooling. Once again let me clarify for you. The pockets of heat that they reference have to do with not having enclosed area to allow air pressure to create the turbulence. Had they had fans blowing in the area of the ambient heat pockets then that scenario they reference completely breaks down. That is thermal mechanics of a room and not a enclosed unit such as a tower. Listen, there are been reviews on this and I am not just throwing up principles here. As an example , please reference the link below:

                                 

                                http://www.xoxide.com/buy-computer-cases.html

                                 

                                Case Size

                                The first thing to consider when selecting a case is size. How much room do you have for this computer? If space is not a limiting factor, go with a full tower case, because it will provide the best cooling and most room for upgrades.

                                 

                                The Full Towers simply provide more Cooling options often with larger fans creating more air turbulence inside the system. The Internal Space of the Case is larger and more open which reduces areas of cabling and such that will stop the jet streams. Then add on that there are less enclosed areas where pockets of heat remain. All of this points to better cooling on Full towers period. We have tested it here with the same results. The Full Tower handles cooling on the X79 with 5 drives with less fans than the Mid towers we tested with more fans. This has been reviewed many times over the years and it's why most enthusiasts go with Full Tower cases if they are not worried about mobility.

                                 

                                Your not going to win this argument.

                                 

                                Eric

                                ADK

                                • 13. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                  Incase the Science behind this is required with links referencing multiple industries since it’s cross industry

                                   

                                  http://www.hoffmanonline.com/stream_document.aspx?rRID=16169&pRID=16168

                                   

                                  “Enclosure Surface Area

                                  The physical size of the enclosure is the primary factor in determining its ability to dissipate heat. The larger the surface area of the enclosure,

                                  the lower the temperature rise due to the heat generated within it.

                                  To determine the surface area of an enclosure in square feet, use the following equation:

                                  Surface Area = 2[(A x B) + (A x C) + (B x C)] ÷ 144

                                  where the enclosure size is A x B x C in inches.

                                  This equation includes all six surfaces of the enclosure. If any surface is not available for transferring heat (for example, an enclosure surface

                                  mounted against a wall), that surface’s area should be subtracted. Note: Enclosure volume cannot be used in place of surface area.”

                                   

                                  http://www.goarista.com/downloads/datasheets/arp2200_m091029d_a_11f.pdf

                                  http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/arista-corporation/rs-series-rackmount-computers/56262-5 6665-_7.html

                                  http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug112.pdf Page 43 btw and good Heatsink to Ambient explanations on page 40

                                   

                                  There are more but that should be enough examples to get the point across

                                   

                                  Eric

                                  ADK

                                  • 14. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                    Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                    Your not going to win this argument.

                                     

                                    Eric

                                    ADK

                                    Didn't realize you were picking a fight, and I am probably not the right target for you - short, light and hate fighting.

                                    Once again let me clarify for you. The pockets of heat that they reference have to do with not having enclosed area to allow air pressure to create the turbulence.

                                    I didn't understand that sentence at all.  "The pockets of heat ... have to do with not having enclosed area to allow air pressure to create the turbulence"?

                                     

                                    What?  (I like how you call it a "clarification" )

                                     

                                    I take it, xoxode.com is a renowned expert on airflow? 

                                    • 15. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                      Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                      The physical size of the enclosure is the primary factor in determining its ability to dissipate heat.

                                      Did you see the "sealed" part?

                                       

                                      In sealed enclosures (no heat exchange with the outside except through surface area), it's true.

                                       

                                      In circulating air enclosures, it's not true which, unfortunately, makes the argument irrelevant. Sorry about that.

                                       

                                      Try again?

                                       

                                      P.S. I really don't like that this is again becoming a sort of a pissing match and quite mean-spirited discussion, with the all those condescending "let me clarify that for you".  Full tower have their place where expansion and a really-well optimized airflow is involved.  This does not change the simple fact that smaller spaces are easier to cool, all other things being equal. Like I said, this is just science.  The idea that the size of the case in itself is a recipe for better cooling - is a myth, however persistent and wide-spread.  If any specific full tower has a better optimized airflow than any specific mid-tower - that's a different discussion.  Full towers - in themselves - are worse for cooling.

                                      • 16. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                        Did you bother to look at the other links I listed. Once again this is Cross industry and encasement conditions including computer environments. There are even also points that talk about introducing air via fans for further heat dissipation. I link engineering points in the Enclosed conditions we speak of and that is somehow false but the non enclosed space condition you link is true. Where is the proof? Considering the Principles of Full towers have been established for years and not by me, the burden of proof is on your side. I have already shown where and why examples of greater space offers better cooling. You list this as a Myth, but where is your proof?

                                         

                                        As Question, how does adding ventilation and fans somehow change the principles of dissipation of Heat in an enclosed space? How can larger areas that take longer to warm up inside an enclosure not cool more effectively than smaller areas that warm up much quicker? How is it at all possible that this is somehow different than cooling in a Computer tower?

                                         

                                        Eric

                                        ADK

                                        • 17. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                          The Turbulence is what moves the pockets of Heat. Turbulence is created by increasing air pressure and airflow. In the example given by you this is an open room environment where creating turbulence is difficult. So you have pockets of heat develope. A case is an enclosed environment where it's easy to create air pressure. Thus you create turbulence which is the air moving around which move the heat pockets.

                                           

                                          Xocode is simply another example of those who state the same as I do. Once again where is any shred of evidence otherwise? What science are you talking about?? Where is this Science at? If it's there why are the general principles still the opposite?

                                           

                                          Eric

                                          ADK

                                          • 18. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                            Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                            Did you bother to look at the other links I listed.

                                            Three of your links point to sealed or fanless enclosures, two of them - to the same document.  The last one, the user manual (really?) also talks about sealed and fanless enclosures, and I saw no argument in favor of larger spaces in forced airflow scenarios.

                                             

                                            Eric, how are we supposed to discuss airflow when you fail to understand the difference between forced circulation and fanless / sealed enclosures?

                                             

                                            Now that it's clear there is no valid argument is coming, in defense of full towers, you are demanding proof?

                                            • 19. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                              The Turbulence is what moves the pockets of Heat.

                                              Oh boy.

                                               

                                              P.S. The airflow does.  Turbulence, in itself - just makes a mess out of them.

                                              • 20. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                You fail to understand the concept of ambient temps and heat. Lets take the opposite view of cooling a space. How much more energy does it take to heat a large space versus a smaller space? If I have a 2000 square foot area to heat that is open versus a 2000 squarefoot area that is filled with objects, which space will heat up quicker.  If it takes more energy to heat a larger space then how is it a smaller area dissipates energy quicker?

                                                 

                                                What are the differences between forced circulation and fanless sealed enclosures? Take the same enclosure with a large internal area and cut holes in it and add fans. How has the principle of greater space to dissipate heat changed?

                                                 

                                                Once again changing the argument is not defending the position.

                                                 

                                                Eric

                                                ADK

                                                • 21. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                  Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                  Once again where is any shred of evidence otherwise? What science are you talking about?? Where is this Science at? If it's there why are the general principles still the opposite?

                                                  Shred, huh?   What have you been doing, Eric?!  Where were you in the past 24 hours? Just kidding.  The guiding principles are here, and I'll be happy to list them again:

                                                  Alex Gerulaitis wrote:

                                                  1. The amount of air moving through any space is the function of primary air pressure (fans) and back-pressure (resistance created by friction, obstacles such as internal components, cables, grills, and turbulence).
                                                  2. Back pressure increases in larger spaces due to natural impedance of airflow (much like with electricity traveling over distance)
                                                  3. Open non-compartmentalized spaces are a recipe for hot spots - areas of turbulence with higher temperatures.
                                                  4. Good cable management and compartmentalized airflow optimization are keys to reducing back pressure and associated heat build-up and energy losses.

                                                   

                                                  Source: Airflow Issues: Silent Enemy of Efficient Cooling.

                                                   

                                                  Bottom line, larger open spaces are enemies of efficient airflow.

                                                  • 22. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_air_distribution

                                                     

                                                    "The high velocity supply air stream causes turbulence causing the room air to mix with the supply air. Because the entire room is near-fully mixed, temperature variations are small while the contaminant concentration is fairly uniform throughout the entire room"

                                                     

                                                    Turbulence moves heatpockets.

                                                     

                                                    Eric

                                                    ADK

                                                    • 23. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                      UlfLaursen Level 2

                                                      Harm Millaard wrote:

                                                       

                                                      I opted for the Asus P9X79 WS because two things were crucial for me: 8 DIMM slots and a FW400 port. I still capture from HDV tape occasionally!

                                                       

                                                      Monster setup.png

                                                      Monster CPU-Z.png

                                                       

                                                      Hi Harm

                                                       

                                                      Can I ask you how you spread the load on the harddrives? As far as I rememeber, you have now pagefile on C: (one of the corsair Pros's), right?

                                                       

                                                      I take it you have media on the raid volume.

                                                       

                                                      You have an extra Corsair and a 1 TB stand alone disc - are they for scratch and export?

                                                       

                                                      Thanks.

                                                       

                                                      Ulf

                                                      • 24. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                        Yes and once again that scenario and principles mean nothing to an enclosed space or case. Sorry that is not the science proving Mid towers are more efficient. That simply states conditions around Datacenters and adding enough air pressure to a data center and the required fan flow for a target CFM . This link is describing the efficiency of fans based on the open space. However it does not mean that it's easier to cool the ambient temps or temps of the components in a case. If the ambient heat in a case is lower then the cooling efficiency of the heatsinks is higher. If the ambient heat is higher then the cooling efficiency of the heatsinks is lower. The goal is to keep the ambient temps ideal. The larger the space inside the tower, the easier that is because heat builds much slower.

                                                         

                                                        Eric

                                                        ADK

                                                        • 25. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                          Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                          Yup, "high velocity air stream" is just there for the credit.  "Turbulence moves heatpockets."

                                                           

                                                          I think I am running out of steam (air?) here... it really is getting tiring.

                                                           

                                                          And yes, I do understand that recommending a mid-tower for better airflow may be counter-intuitive even if based on sound science.  This discussion being so confrontational, it's probably hard to look at the opponent's view without a bias - on both sides.  So maybe let's get back to this when things are a bit cooler.

                                                          • 26. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                            JEShort01 Level 4

                                                            Alex,

                                                             

                                                            I sure wish you would quick picking fights with lots of knowledgeable people just trying to help people build good PCs for running Adobe Premiere. (I am stating that based on not just this thread, but rather the strong challenges you seem to bring to about half of the threads that you've chosen to participate in).

                                                             

                                                            I was the original poster to suggest that Neal select a larger case. Next Harm agreed and cited 6 points which I would agree with regarding why a larger box is better for a video editing rig.

                                                             

                                                            What are the typical goals for someone wanting a video editing PC? I would expect that most users want:

                                                            - robust, runs and never fails

                                                            - has incredible power; face it, video editing with AVCHD is one of the most taxing applications a PC can face today

                                                            - quiet; who wants to be doing creative work with any server room like wind noise

                                                             

                                                            Now let me be specific where you are simply WRONG WRONG WRONG:

                                                             

                                                            You stated: "Back pressure increases in larger spaces due to natural impedance of airflow (much like with electricity traveling over distance)"

                                                             

                                                            Fact: Exactly the opposite; Back pressure decreases in larger spaces due to more room for the air to flow (much like thicker copper passes electricity with less resistance than a thin wire)

                                                             

                                                            Your stated: "Open non-compartmentalized spaces are a recipe for hot spots - areas of turbulence with higher temperatures." and then cited a server room article talking about cooling air taking the path of least resistance -- going under the floor in a server room, instead of through rack mounted servers.

                                                             

                                                            Fact: Lots of open space for large, slow moving fans to keep a video editing box cool is a great way to go

                                                             

                                                            You stated: "Full towers - in themselves - are worse for cooling"

                                                             

                                                            Fact: That is one crazy indefensible statement!

                                                             

                                                            I seriously doubt that you fully comprehend the differences and importance of thermal conductivity, heat capacity, conduction, convection, and radiation for you to make the statements that you have so far and these are the staples for discussing how heat transfer takes place.

                                                             

                                                            Note to other readers... There are lots of ways to cool components including cpus, hard drives, gpus and memory. I suspect that the noise levels brought by servers and some gamers would be totally offensive to the ambient noise level that you want in the room with you for video editing. Therefore we are left with just a few quiet alternatives: 1) lots of volume at low velocity (large cases, large fans, slow rpm), 2) liquid cooling, and 3) Cases with doors or baffles to keep the sound from a noisier solution from getting back to your ears.

                                                             

                                                            Regards,

                                                             

                                                            Jim

                                                            • 27. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                              "turbulence causing the room air to mix with the supply air"

                                                               

                                                              Yup and the turbulence causing the room air to mix with supply air just means something other than what it says I guess. Wouldn't have anything to do with mixing heat pockets or air that is different temps. Why would anyone think that.

                                                               

                                                              Eric

                                                              ADK

                                                              • 28. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                Jim,

                                                                 

                                                                Glad you chipped in.

                                                                 

                                                                I added a lot of qualifiers in the defense of my arguments, including that full towers have their place for reasons other than airflow, and including airflow.  I also said it's the optimization of airflow that's key, not the size of the case.

                                                                 

                                                                Why do you think midrange servers that for the most part sit alone in a 48U rack, are all 2U rather than 5U they used to be 10 years ago?  (Hint: it's not just because you can pack more power in tight spaces - after all, desktop sizes haven't changed that dramatically.  They actually dissipate heat more effectively than 5U cases.)

                                                                 

                                                                I wish you'd actually take a look at the arguments.

                                                                 

                                                                You stated: "Back pressure increases in larger spaces due to natural impedance of airflow (much like with electricity traveling over distance)"

                                                                 

                                                                Fact: Exactly the opposite; Back pressure decreases in larger spaces due to more room for the air to flow (much like thicker copper passes electricity with less resistance than a thin wire)

                                                                 

                                                                Sorry: no, as it only looks at the circumference and not distance.  Longer cables have higher impedance and poorer conductivity, period.  Thicker ones - lower impedance and higher conductivity, but only to a point.  There is practically no difference in conductivity (efficiency) between a 1-inch thick copper cable, and 1-foot thick one, for 120V electricity.  1 million volts may make a difference.

                                                                 

                                                                Translating it to cases, a full tower case with just 3-4 drives and one graphics card will be cooled less efficiently than a mid-tower one all other things being equal (air pressure and airflow optimization).  Three dual-width graphics cards and/or 12 LFF drives?  You bet I'd go for the full tower case.

                                                                 

                                                                The reason for that it'll be hard to optimize airflow in a space that is packed too tightly, which increases back pressure and thus, energy losses.  Space that's too empty - similarly, creates its own problems with airflow efficiency.  That's the whole point of my initial post on the topic.  Full tower cases are not a universal recipe for better cooling.  If I ever said they're bad for cooling every time, all the time - sorry, I didn't mean that.

                                                                 

                                                                Does it make sense now?

                                                                • 29. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                  Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                  Question to moderators:

                                                                   

                                                                  Is there any way for fork case-size-related posts into a separate thread?  While the discussion is good in terms of looking at pros and cons of case sizes and cooling efficiency, it certainly made a mess out of the topic.

                                                                  • 30. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                    "

                                                                    Why do you think midrange servers that for the most part sit alone in a 48U rack, are all 2U rather than 5U they used to be 10 years ago? (Hint: it's not just because you can pack more power in tight spaces - after all, desktop sizes haven't changed that dramatically. They actually dissipate heat more effectively than 5U cases.)"

                                                                     

                                                                    Simple, the answer is cost and not cooling as you state. It takes far more metal to build 4U or 5U rackmounts. Metal is very expensive right now and China is doing everything possible to conserve metal. The other cost is Storage and transportation. 4U cases require more space per unit which increases shipping cost per unit and square footage cost for storage per unit.

                                                                     

                                                                    "

                                                                    Translating it to cases, a full tower case with just 3-4 drives and one graphics card will be cooled less efficiently than a mid-tower one all other things being equal (air pressure and airflow optimization). Three dual-width graphics cards and/or 12 LFF drives? You bet I'd go for the full tower case

                                                                    "

                                                                     

                                                                    This argument strictly points to efficiency of fans. Fans are not the only factor to cooling and actually ambient heat temps decide the overall efficiency of fans more than space. If the overall air temp is high the it takes far more airflow to distribute that heat. If the overall air temp is low then it takes far less airflow to distribute that heat. The Fan efficiency is only part of the overall cooling efficiency, not all.

                                                                     

                                                                    Eric

                                                                    ADK

                                                                    • 31. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                      Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                      Simple, the answer is cost and not cooling as you state. It takes far more metal to build 4U or 5U rackmounts. Metal is very expensive right now and China is doing everything possible to conserve metal.

                                                                      I just couldn't resist: we conserve metal on rack servers because it's expensive China, yet are really generous with it on towers. That's one fine argument!

                                                                      • 32. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                        It's a matter of numbers and also metal type. Far more Rackmounts are sold in enterprise environments than Full Towers now. The Desktop/Small Business solutions are overwhelmingly Mid Towers or smaller once again due to space and cost. Full Towers for the enthusiast market is a fraction of the overall case production. Demand is still there for Full Towers so their made. However look at the case manufacturers product lines and you will see the Full Tower selection is far smaller than the Mid Tower or smaller. Once again, you have to look at the entire scope and not just 1 selective point.

                                                                         

                                                                        Eric

                                                                        ADK

                                                                        • 33. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                          Bridgecourt

                                                                          Hi, I'm hoping I can jump in on this and someone can help me. First off, I'm not a hardware expert so please excuse any ignorance I have in this area (which is why I am here asking the question). I'm looking to build a new PC and the main reason for it is video editing with Adobe Premiere and After Effects. I won't be doing any gaming or 3d modeling on it. Here is what I am looking at possibly getting for mobo and cpu...


                                                                          Socket 2011: Gigabyte GA-X79-UD3, i7-3820 and 16 or 32gb quad channel ddr3. I've been told by a video editor that 16gb is enough for most projects.


                                                                          or


                                                                          Socket 1155: GA-Z77X-UD3H, i7-3770 and 32gb dual channel ddr3.


                                                                          Any thoughts on this or suggestions for a better system. Since my budget is between 1000 and 1300 both of these fit into it nicely.  

                                                                           

                                                                          I'm also not sure about ram, hard drive and that stuff.  I'm not too worried about having the fastest beast on the planet. In other words if a render takes 20 minutes compared 17 minutes I'm fine with that. What I don't want is for it to take 58 minutes like it does now on my laptop. LOL. I'm also fine to get a good system now and swap out parts later as I can afford them.

                                                                          • 34. Re: New System Build feedback/advice, please...
                                                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            Ideally the 3930K would be the choice if you were to go with the X79 platform. If that is out of the budget range then the X79 with the 3820 would give you upgrade ability should your workflow change later. I would suggest the X79 route.


                                                                            Eric

                                                                            ADK