26 Replies Latest reply on Oct 28, 2012 10:39 AM by Hudechrome

    HDR Pro color cast

    efbacon

      After upgrading PS CS6 to 13.0.1, HDR Pro now renders terrible colors. The reds seem to be missing and there is a pea-green cast to everything. The screen capture from LR shows two 32-bit images made from HDR Pro the one on the left was created 9/19/2012 on the right was created 10/27/2012 after having upgraded CS6 and LR4. The color space in Photoshop is Prophoto

       

      10-27-2012 2-30-33 PM.png

        • 1. Re: HDR Pro color cast
          gator soup Level 4

          i don't know anything about LR or HDR P, but if Photoshop is displaying incorrectly your are applying the wrong Source Profile or your monitor profile is bad (or your file is actually off - it contains the colors Photoshop is displaying)

           

          hard to hazard a guess which with info provided..

          • 2. Re: HDR Pro color cast
            efbacon Level 1

            Thank you for taking time to respond. Are you saying that PS uses the monitor profile when it creates a 32-bit HDR file? That seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.

             

            The two images in the screen capture above were rendered with the same profile, which is a 6 - 8 weeks old, so I will re-calibrate. The image on the left has two red hills that are very different than the image on the right. Both were made from the same 5 RAW files, both are shown through the same (old) monitor profile, they were created about 5 weeks apart using different versions of CS6 and its HDR Pro feature, neither file has had any adjustment made to it.

             

            It does seem reasonable for CS6 to use the color space when it creates the new 32-bit HDR image. However consider if you have dual monitors, each being a different model, then when it creates the data (create not render) PS would have to know the monitor (and profile) through which the window is being displayed. The monitor ICM (profile) is used by the OS and video drivers to map the colors generated by an application. So an old or bad profile may have Photoshop render an image that looks bad, but the underlying data for the colors would be accurate. Well until the user modifies the data to adjust for what she sees. In my case these files have no adjustment made to them. You might be correct, I am making up my own explanation/understanding.

             

            Ed

            • 3. Re: HDR Pro color cast
              gator soup Level 4

              Are you saying that PS uses the monitor profile when it creates a 32-bit HDR file?

               

              Photoshop uses the embedded Source Profile (or it Assigns its working profile to the source document if it is not tagged with an embedded profile) -- then -- Converts (or transforms) the colors to the monitor profile for a theoretical true-color display

               

              that is very straightforward:  Photoshop must be told what the correct source profile is or it will skew its monitor proof (and won't convert your document to other profiles correctly)

               

              review my post #1 (it nails the problem down)

               

              does Edit> Assign Profile (ProPhotoRGB, AdobeRGB, sRGB, or MonitorRGB) snap the color back in Photoshop?

              • 4. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                conroy Level 5

                efbacon wrote:

                 

                The color space in Photoshop is Prophoto

                 

                 

                Regardless of your Photoshop settings, what profile does each image actually have? The images could contain exactly the same pixel values, but if the profiles differ then Lightroom will render the images differently.

                • 5. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                  gator soup Level 4

                  if you have dual monitors, each being a different model, then when it creates the data

                   

                  someone else will have to help with dual monitors because there are some known bugs and you don't even say what OS you are using (or did i miss it)

                   

                  but Photoshop edits/saves in the Source Profile space (the monitor is only showing you a real-time color preview through the monitor space)

                   

                  if Photoshop gets the Source Profile wrong or your Monitor Profile is off, it can't display the color proper...

                  • 6. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                    efbacon Level 1

                    When one selects a number of images in LR to "Edit In | Merge to HDR Pro ...", Photoshop is opened and the images are passed from LR in ProPhotoRGB to PS.  I believe this infers that the embedded source profile is ProPhoto for each of the source files used to create the HDR image. My default working space for PS is ProPhoto as well, which should avoid re-mapping/translation of colors. As you can see from this screen capture the Working and Embedded Profiles are the same.

                     

                    File 2:

                    10-27-2012 10-30-50 PM.png

                    vs.

                    File 1: (see red hills below not in above)

                     

                    10-27-2012 10-39-14 PM.png

                     

                    I may have been incorrect to read your original response to as the monitor profile and not the source image profile. Anyway everything between LR and PS is ProPhoto. Also my issue is not how the file displays, but the difference in the two files created between two versions of PS (CS6) given the same input (5 RAW files from LR).

                     

                     

                    Finally, I am using Windows 7 on my Desktop, but two files have the same visual difference on my MacBook Air (2012 edition)

                    • 7. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                      efbacon Level 1

                      The images passed from LR to PS are ProPhoto.

                      • 8. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                        conroy Level 5

                        efbacon wrote:

                         

                        The images passed from LR to PS are ProPhoto.

                         

                        Please disregard Photoshop for a moment and tell me what profile is reported by Lightroom as belonging to each of the actual images being displayed side by side in your first screenshot of Lightroom.

                        • 9. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                          efbacon Level 1

                          Everything in LR is Prophoto, so when then RAW files are sent to PS HDR Pro they are in ProPhoto. This is analogous to specifying Prophoto in ACR before opening an image.

                          Sent from my iPad

                          • 10. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                            gator soup Level 4

                            My default working space for PS is ProPhoto as well, which should avoid re-mapping/translation of colors.

                             

                            ProPhoto RGB is your "Source Space"

                             

                            ProPhoto is much different than your "Monitor Space" (your custom OS default monitor profile)

                             

                            Photoshop, color-managed apps, read the embedded ProPhoto ICC profile and certainly do re-map/translate (Convert/transform) the source colors to the monitor profile — you can't get around that behavior in Photoshop since version 6

                             

                            if you want to see what ProPhoto RGB looks like with no re-mapping/translation to the monitor profile -- just save a ProPhoto .jpg file (do not embed the profile) and drag its icon off the desktop and into Safari (it opens and displays pretty ugly, right?)

                             

                             

                            my issue is not how the file displays

                             

                             

                            yet that's where you are seeing the problem, right?

                             

                            think about it

                             

                            Photoshop is only "proofing" the source color on the monitor, but it can't do its job unless it is using the correct Source Profile and an 'accurate' Monitor Profile

                             

                            if your Source Profiles are in order, i would hazard a guess that one or both of your monitor profiles are off

                             

                            or something in your workflow has changed that influences color

                             

                            how do your other files look in the 'problem' Photoshop(s)?

                            • 11. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                              Something that may be obvious to all who are participating in this thread, but I'll say it anyway:

                               

                              Your Iceland-9266_Edit_1702 image, as displayed in the original post of this thread, has the color-appearance of a ProPhoto RGB image having been assigned the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile.

                               

                              Your challenge is to find out how, in some part of your workflow, that has happened.

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 12. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                efbacon Level 1

                                Noel you have gotten to the heart of the matter. Somewhere along the line the color spaces have been crossed up. Before posting, I had checked and doubled checked my settings to ensure that everything was ProPhoto (or at least all the settings I could remember and find . I don't know if there is a separate way to influence what PS uses when it creates the HDR file.

                                 

                                If I open the 32-bit file in PS and the Assign Profile dialog, both the file and the working space are ProPhoto (see post #6 above). This is true for either sample file, so I cannot see where/how it is now assigned sRGB.  I am about to do an experiment to rebuild the HDR image from the original RAW files and see what the color space is before I save the 32-bit file. My guess is that the profile has already been baked in. I think I have the prior version of both PS and LR on my Dell laptop, if that is the case I will also try to recreate the 32-bit file there.

                                 

                                For what it is worth here is a re-cap of my workflow

                                1. The LR Preference for Edit In: 16-bit, ProPhoto RGB, TIFF

                                2. The PS Color Settings use ProPhoto RGB working space.

                                3. Five RAW files (1-stop difference between each) have only had a lens correction and some capture sharpening done in LR.

                                4. I use "Merge to HDR Pro in Photoshop ..."

                                5. Make no changes in the PS HDR dialog, close it, save the file

                                6. I would use LR to make tonal adjustments

                                 

                                Something has changed to yield the differences between the September and October files. The only thing I deliberately changed was to upgrade PS and LR to the latest versions. This of course does not rule out me changing something, just not deliberately or knowingly. Finally the sample size is greater than one, any image created via HDR Pro is no longer usable.

                                • 13. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                  efbacon Level 1

                                  Conroy, I do not know how to determine what the assigned profile is using LR. I have been using EXIF and IPTC (and DNG) Metadata presets in LR. Is there some other tool that shows the assigned profile?

                                  • 14. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                    conroy Level 5

                                    Noel you have gotten to the heart of the matter.

                                     

                                    Yes, and that's what I tried to get at. That's why I was asking about the profile of each of the side-by-side images displayed in your first screenshot.

                                    • 15. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                      efbacon Level 1

                                      conroy, Post #6 shows each assigned profile from the PS dialog, show each file is ProPhoto. Is there a tool to inspect the files outside of PS?

                                       

                                      Turns out I also upgraded my laptop versions since I returned from Iceland, but I may try to reproduce the result on it anyway.

                                      • 16. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                        conroy Level 5

                                        efbacon wrote:

                                         

                                        Conroy, I do not know how to determine what the assigned profile is using LR. I have been using EXIF and IPTC (and DNG) Metadata presets in LR. Is there some other tool that shows the assigned profile?

                                         

                                        I see what you mean, and I'm surprised to be unable to find that info in Lightroom, myself.

                                         

                                        Photoshop and Bridge can tell you the profile that's embedded in an image. Sticking with Photoshop, in "Edit > Color Settings" dialog, either set the RGB management policy to "preserve profiles", or set it to "convert to working space" with the "prompt for mismatch" options enabled. If the latter, when a mismatch is detected on opening a file, the prompt will tell you the current profile of the image so you can decide how to proceed.

                                         

                                        The profile of an open Photoshop document can be found in several places, one of which is the status bar when set to display "Document Profile" in the popup menu accessed via the little triangle.

                                         

                                        So, open these two images (shown at the beginning of the thread) directly into Photoshop, without involving Lightroom or Camera Raw, and determine their embedded profiles.

                                        • 17. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                          It doesn't sound as if you overtly use Camera Raw, but I wonder...

                                           

                                          If you open one of your raw files in Camera Raw, what color space is listed at the bottom-center of the Camera Raw dialog?

                                           

                                          It's a longshot, but if the Camera Raw plug-in is in some way involved with the work you're doing, the setting there - which is separate from that of Photoshop - may be implicated.  It's not difficult to change it (e.g., to ProPhoto RGB) - try that and see if it makes a difference.

                                           

                                          The Camera Raw preferences define what types of files Camera Raw opens by default, and as I recall TIFF Is one of them.  The more I think about this the more I wonder...

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                            conroy Level 5

                                            Noel Carboni wrote:

                                             

                                            If you open one of your raw files in Camera Raw, what color space is listed at the bottom-center of the Camera Raw dialog?

                                             

                                            Noel, that doesn't display the profile that's embedded in the file (TIFF or JPEG) which is opened by Camera Raw. That's the "Workflow Space" - it's the profile of the image that Camera Raw will send to Photoshop.

                                             

                                            Edit: Sorry, my message probably can be ignored, since you said "raw" and not TIFF or JPEG.

                                            • 19. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                              efbacon Level 1

                                              Noel and conroy, thanks to both of you.

                                              • From Bridge my ACR workflow settings are 16-bit, ProPhoto.
                                              • My PS color management settings are to leave embeded profiles and prompt when missing
                                              • The Document Profile display shows a slight difference. For the 32-bit TIFF files both show "ProPhoto RGB (Linear RGB Profi...", but a RAW file loaded from LR shows "ProPhoto RGB(16bpc)". I believe the difference is not significant.

                                               

                                              Uh now for the new strange twist. I exported the 5 RAW files and 2 TIFF as a LR catalog and loaded on my laptop. I did a Merge to HDR Pro on the laptop to create a third TIFF. The unaltered 32-bit file looks pretty good, and much like the September version. So something is definitely wrong with the updated Desktop environment. I captured the system info for all combinations of machine and application, but nothing really pops out as different (other than the obvious machine diffs).

                                               

                                              I don't know, my wife is away, it is raining, perhaps I should uninstall PS and start over before Sandy comes and knocks out the electicity.

                                              • 20. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                conroy Level 5

                                                efbacon wrote:

                                                 

                                                [...]

                                                • My PS color management settings are to leave embeded profiles and prompt when missing
                                                • [...] the 32-bit TIFF files both show "ProPhoto RGB (Linear RGB Profi..." [...]

                                                [...]

                                                 

                                                 

                                                OK, thanks, so it appears that my suspicion of these files having different profiles can be ruled out.

                                                • 21. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                  I didn't have a solid theory why the color space for raw conversions should cause this, but I figured experimenting with the setting to see if it was implicated was cheap.  Photoshop "opens" the files behind the scenes during a Merge to HDR script operation, and I don't know all about what it does there.

                                                   

                                                  I wonder whether clearing Photoshop's preferences to defaults would be a better first move than uninstalling / reinstalling.

                                                   

                                                  Your wife is Sandy?    Please tell her thanks for bringing cool weather to south Florida.

                                                   

                                                  Seriously, best of luck in the storm.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                    gator soup Level 4

                                                    Your Iceland-9266_Edit_1702 image, as displayed in the original post of this thread, has the color-appearance of a ProPhoto RGB image having been assigned the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile

                                                     

                                                    that makes sense because the image was apparently uploaded untagged

                                                     

                                                    the image looks more to me like sRGB was assigned to AdobeRGB (or wide gamut monitor space) but it is hard to tell for sure by the nature of the control image (i don't know how it is supposed to look because the profile was stripped)

                                                     

                                                    if the monitor is wide gamut, the source profile of the screenshots would be closer to AdobeRGB (if Windows captures the screen in the monitor space like the Mac)

                                                     

                                                    at risk of repeating myself, if the profiles are in order, then it is a workflow issue — i am not sure why someone would uninstall/reinstall Photoshop over this but i wish them luck

                                                    • 23. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                      How it is uploaded makes little difference.  I was referring to the difference between left and right images.

                                                       

                                                      And you may be right, as the ProPhoto - sRGB asignment invokes a gamma shift I don't see there - but then both images are the stated result of an HDR combination, so that distinction could have been lost in the shuffle.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      at risk of repeating myself, if the profiles are in order, then it is a workflow issue

                                                       

                                                      Though I tend to agree, you've missed one possible 3rd alternative:  Given that efbacon is repeating the process with different results on different systems and seems aware of all the settings, there could actually be a bug somewhere in the color-management logic on one of the systems.  Not that any of us have ever seen any bugs in Photoshop... 

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 24. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                        gator soup Level 4

                                                        How it is uploaded makes little difference.

                                                         

                                                        little difference to what -- i wrote in context "it is hard to tell for sure by the nature of the control image (i don't know how it is supposed to look because the profile was stripped)"

                                                         

                                                        you've missed one possible 3rd alternative

                                                         

                                                        actually i wrote in #1 "i don't know anything about LR or HDR P, but if Photoshop" — i was talking about how Photoshop uses profiles

                                                        • 25. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                          efbacon Level 1

                                                          Hah, I forgot the old "get rid of the preferences and have PS start over" trick. I think that was only ever useful on a Mac and did not work so much on a PC. So I renamed the Settings folder and after having PS go "Not Responding" a few times, it eventually started to work. And now when I Merge with HDR Pro the image looks good. Thanks to you all for helping me noodle through this.

                                                          Ed

                                                          • 26. Re: HDR Pro color cast
                                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                                            I hope the OP and othershere on the East Coast are doing ok!

                                                             

                                                            I ran an experiment.

                                                             

                                                            First, my Default settings in ACR is sRGB, as is the profile set in PS "Color Settings".

                                                             

                                                            Calibrated monitor.

                                                             

                                                            For purposes of this test, I changed the Profile in ACR to ProPhoto, so that I may examine the options.

                                                             

                                                            I've included a screen shot of four possibilities. You can see at the bottom of each the final settings.

                                                             

                                                            Left image is "Assign sRGB"

                                                             

                                                            Next imge is as stated,. I opened in PS by dicarding the profile. Notice they look the same.

                                                             

                                                            Third image is "Use the Imbedded Profile"

                                                             

                                                            Fourth the image was "Convert t Documents colors to working space".

                                                             

                                                            I did a fifth, not shown that reset the color space in ACR back to sRGB, invoking no need to do anything upon opening. I didn't show it as there is no diiference whatsoever between it and the fourth panel sRGB.

                                                             

                                                            The color changes are rather dramatic, more so than I see in the OP's opening set. But then, that's probably due to the different image qualities.

                                                            Image color tag test.JPG