22 Replies Latest reply on Dec 20, 2014 9:10 PM by HarleyTDavis

    creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio

    brarble Level 1

      Hey guys, so I have a simple problem here. Seems like it should have a simple solution, but I'm not able to find an answer in the numerous posts/tutorials I've searched. Here's my issue: I'm trying to create a multi-camera source sequence but I'd like the sequence to use the good audio recorded onset by our sound mixer instead of the crummy internal camera audio.

       

      So in theory the three files I'd like to sync and combine into a multi-camera sequence are:

       

      1) Camera Angle 1 (video and internal audio)

      2) Camera Angle 2 (video and internal audio)

      3) boom mic audio recorded onset (no video, audio only)

       

      All the tutorials I've seen make multicam look so simple and similar to how I've done it before on Avid or FCP. Seems like you get your clips. You set your in-points (or out-points, or markers, whatever your sync point is). Then you select the clips in the Project Bin, right click, and select "create multi-camera source sequence."

       

      These steps work fine if I skip the boom mic audio and only try to multi-clip with the two camera angles. However, once I try to include the boom mic audio, "create multi-camera source sequence" becomes greyed out and is no longer an option when I right click on the clips.

       

      Does multi-camera only work with video clips?

       

      And if so, then how on earth do you get your good set audio into the mix if you want to edit with multi clips?

        • 1. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          Try the standard method.

           

          1. Create the sequence.

          2. Add the desired clips.

          3. Sync them up.

          4. Create a second sequence.

          5. Nest the first sequence into the second.

          6. Right click on the nested sequence and select Enable Multicam.

          • 2. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
            brarble Level 1

            Thanks Jim,

             

            I should have specified. I'm using CS6. As far as I can tell, what you're suggesting is the CS5 workflow for nested multi-cam sequences. But from what I can gather (from places like here http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/ssimmons/story/working_with_multicam_in_adobe_premi ere_pro_cs6/ and here http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-pro-cs6/setting-up-multi-camera-sequences) in CS 6, the workflow is a little different if you want to utilize the new "multi-camera source sequence" function.

             

            Allegedy, using this method (i.e. syncing your points in the project bin, then "creating multi-camera source sequence")  you should be able to create a new multi-camera clip that by default opens to the Source Bin (rather than the timeline) and where you can scrub through like a normal clip, set in and out points, etc  (basically the same multi-clipping functionality of FCP 7 and Avid that Premiere has sorely been lacking due to its "nested sequence" approach to multicam/multiclipping as opposed to creating legit "multi-clips")

             

            I was super excited for this new feature in CS6 and was pondering the switch if it functioned well. But I don't see how Adobe can tout multi-clipping "functionality" when you can't even include set audio in said multi-clips. That seems broken to me.

            • 3. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
              Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

              I'm new to CS 6 from FCP 7 so I dont' know how Adobe did it before.  The approach now is similar to FCP X (that's a *good* thing!).  The multiclip is a nest and it can be opened in the timeline (if you right click on it).

               

              The way I add external audio to a multiclip in CS 6 is to sync up the video first and put a marker at the same place in the audio only clip.  As far as I can tell, you can't add an audio only clip automatically.  Once the multiclip is made with the video clips, right click and open it in the timeline.  Then drag the audio only clip to a second audio track and sync it to the markers.  Be sure to turn off the old audio track and turn on the new one. 

               

              you can also open the multiclip nest if you find your initial sync was wrong or if you want to add other clips down stream on a track (if, for example, the camera was turned off and turned back on).

               

              You can have multiple audio tracks in a multiclip but they are all muxed together.  The only way I have found to have multiple, descreet audio tracks is to add them to the multicam sequence (not the nest) as separate tracks.  You can then send these to Audition as a multitrack to mix down.

               

              Hope this helps

              • 4. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                As far as I can tell, what you're suggesting is the CS5 workflow for nested multi-cam sequences.

                 

                No, it still works just fine in CS6.

                • 5. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                  brarble Level 1

                  To Jim....

                  No, it still works just fine in CS6.

                  I'm not saying the old work flow doesn't work. But it's not the particular functionality that I'm trying to use. I want the "multi-camera source sequence" function that's allegedly new in CS6 (which sounded like it was essentially the same thing as "multi-clipping"in FCP or "group clips" in Avid).

                   

                  I don't want a huge nested multi-camera sequence that I have to then drag into the timeline in its entriety when I may only want ten seconds of footage from the clip. I want a legit multi-camera clip that functions as a clip (not a sequence) and by default opens into the source monitor where in and out points can be set, your selection can then be added to the timeline (basic NLE editing worklow and the way multi-clips function in Avid and FCP 7).

                   

                  From what I'd heard, it sounded like CS6 had finally added this functionality. It seems half way there. I can do it with two video clips, but it can't seem to include audio only tracks (which seems kind ridiculous to anyone fielding sound from a sound mixer rather than an oncamera source).

                   

                  To Allynn...

                   

                  thanks so much for the helpful reply! I tried using your solution of opening the multiclip in the timeline, adding in the good audio there, and turning off the old audio tracks. It worked great the first time I loaded it into the source monitor, but then when I tried to mark an in point the audio got out of sync. Now when I open the clip in the source monitor it plays random audio from the track that's completely out of sync with the video. Have you encountered this audio sync issue at all?

                  • 6. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                    The only thing "new" in CS6 is the method of creating the multicam sequence.  Once it's created, everything works the same as it did before.

                    • 7. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                      brarble Level 1

                      Er... that's not what it sounds like according to the above articles I linked to. Here's the salient info from the Pro Video Coalition link:

                       

                      Screen Shot 2012-10-31 at 9.42.41 AM.png

                       

                      If I use your suggested workflow it results in the sequence icon to the right (even when I drag it into the timeline and select "enable multicam") If I use the new workflow (same one it sounds like Allynn is using) it results in the "multicam sequence" icon to the left and the multiclip actualy opens in the source bin instead of the timeline.

                       

                      Which led me to believe that Adobe was (thankfully!) trying to move away from their "nested-sequence multicams" (which may be fine for live events but I find to be unusable for narrative editing) to the much better multiclip functionality of FCP 7 or Avid where multi-clip function as clips instead of sequences.

                       

                      If that's not the case, then I'm really dissappointed.

                      • 8. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        Yes, you can open and see the different angles in the Source Monitor, but you can't cut the multicam sequence from the Source Monitor.  You still have to nest it into another sequence and use the Multicam Monitor for cutting.  The new method you're talking about is only a shortcut to creating multicam sequences, not a change in the way they work.

                        • 9. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                          brarble Level 1

                          Thanks Jim. I appreciate the help, but I don't think you're following me here. I'm not trying to "cut" anything in the source monitor. And I'm not even trying to use the multicam monitor. (that's always been something that seemed more useful for live events than a narrative workflow)

                           

                          All I'm trying to do is use MULTICLIPS (or "multicam sequences" in PrPro's case) the same way you use CLIPS in any standard NLE workflow. View CLIP in the source monitor. Select in and out points. Put selection into the timeline. That's as simple and standard as it gets.

                           

                          The cool thing about Avid and FCP 7 is that they allow you to do this same workflow with MULTICLIPS. View MULTICLIP in the source monitor. Select in and out points. Put selection into the timeline. Once there, you have the added benefit of selecting a different angle once the clip is in the timeline. So depending on how the shoot was carried out, you can switch between shot reverse shot . Or closeup and a medium. Whatever.

                           

                          Meanwhile, in the past Adobe has had its clunky "multiclip sequences" that could in theory be opened in the source bin, but didn't do so by default and didn't really work that well when manipulated that way. They had to function as bulky sequences you could only edit with the multicam monitor (again, great for live events, largely useless for narrative).

                           

                          It seemed like CS6 was going to finally bring multiclip functionality to Premiere (i.e. multiclips that function as CLIPS that can be opened in the source, in and points selected, etc vs. ungainly sequences that can't be easily edited down before being brought into the timeline). I get that "multi-cam sequences" are still sequences, but it seemed like Adobe was touting the new functionality that it could be opened in the source more like Avid or FCP.

                           

                          Allynn and I have both gotten it to work using tracks with video and audio. My wrinkle is when you have audio only tracks. Arg. Does anyone else understand my beef here? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

                          • 10. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                            Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                            OK.. let me see if I follow...

                            In your image above when everything in the icon is stacked up to the same length, that's what I would call a multiclip.  Jim is right, you then have to drag that to make a multiclip sequence.  I call that a nest (though I don't think Adobe does anymore).  The thing is, the multiclip will **always** be all of the footage (video and audio) that you've put in the project unless you open the multiclip by right clicking it and selecting "open in timeline" and start cutting it up there.

                             

                            I think this is a lot more flexible than FCP 7's way of doing things because in FCP 7 a multi-clip was a "black box".  If your sync was wrong or you wanted to add other angles you couldn't edit it (only start again).  So I see this method as better and much more like FCP X.

                             

                            So... to answer your questions... I don't usually set I/O's for multiclips in the Source monitor.  I have had audio go out of sync there but, to be honest, I don't think the multiclip was the problem.  You *could* open the multicam nest in the timeline and cut it there. I've done this for starting points but never edited the whole thing like that.  As long as you "control-k" to cut through all track layers it should work jsut fine.  I've actually done this with multiple audio layers and a single, video multiclip in the sequence.  This is the only way I've been able to work with preserving multiple audio tracks in a multicam.

                             

                            Multicam is definitely differnt in Premiere CS 6 than FCP 7 and some things are beeter, some are worse.  I'm starting to embrace the mulitcam window for projects where I'm just switching angles, not deleting content.  But when I'm tightening up a video and removing content I tend to use the timeline and ctrl-k

                             

                            Helpful?

                            • 11. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                              Jim_Simon Level 8

                              View MULTICLIP in the source monitor. Select in and out points. Put selection into the timeline. Once there, you have the added benefit of selecting a different angle once the clip is in the timeline

                               

                              That's something of a backwards work flow.  Normally you'd cut the multicam first, then if you want only parts of it, cut or copy those to use in a third sequence.

                               


                              great for live events, largely useless for narrative

                               

                              Well...yeah.  That's expected.  For narrative work, you normally open one clip at a time in the Source Monitor.

                              • 12. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                brarble Level 1

                                major thanks for trying to help me out Allynn, for trying to understand what I'm getting at, and addressing the problems (as opposed to old "it works fine" Jim).

                                 

                                It doesn't work as far as I'm concerned. I hear what you're saying  about the "black box" aspect of FCP (and avid works the same way), and see why Premiere could be cool with it's ability to tweak the content of multiclips as you go. But...

                                 

                                For people working in narrative used to a standard NLE work flow. (i.e. open your clip in the soruce, select I/O points, bring selection to timeline) the idea of having to bring entire bulky sequences into the timeline and cut them up there is heinous.

                                 

                                I see why Premiere's setup would be fine for a live event where you're basically locked in terms of audio and just picking which camera angle to use. But if you're editing a 5 minute dialogue scene shot on multiple cameras and you just need one 10 second line of dialogue from one take to go into a scene, and the only way to do that is to drag an entire  5 minute nested sequence into the timeline and chop it up there... that's just not acceptable.

                                 

                                It looks like CS6 attempted to remedy this with the way mutliclip sequences now open to the viewer and support I/O points, but I'm finding elsewhere on the internet that I'm not the only one with the sound sync issues. So I'm left to conclude that PrPro still can't handle high level multiclipping.

                                 

                                Which is a bummer. I wanted to jump to Premiere after crapple abandoned FCP 7 for all of PrPro's seeming benefits (AE dynamic link, mercury engine). But if it can't make multiclips that work with the most basic editing workflows, then looks like I'm going to have to crawl back to Avid after happily ditching it so many years ago.

                                 

                                Ugh. I hate Apple. I hate Avid. I hate Adobe. I hate the world right now...

                                • 13. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                  brarble Level 1



                                  That's something of a backwards work flow.  Normally you'd cut the multicam first, then if you want only parts of it, cut or copy those to use in a third sequence.

                                   

                                  No. It's pretty much the most basic narrtive workflow of all NLE editing. Load it into the source. Select i/o. Put it in the timeline. Doesn't matter if it's a multiclip or a single angle.

                                   

                                  The workflow you're describing (put in the timeline, edit it there) works great for concerts and wedding videos and music vidoes. That's about it.

                                   

                                   

                                  Well...yeah.  That's expected.  For narrative work, you normally open one clip at a time in the Source Monitor.

                                   

                                  And no.  In Avid and FCP 7 you can link clips (and have been able to do so for years) and work with them as multiclips in the source. Much less of a hassle than having to open each angle as a separate clip when it's essentially the same action.

                                   

                                  I know next you'll say "if you don't like the way PrPro handles multicams/multiclips then request a new feature." And I love to, the only problem is this was supposed to be a feature of CS6 and is touted as such in its literature. So I actually feel like I've come to the right place to gripe...

                                  • 14. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                    Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                                    Let's try this with images!  These are screen grabs from a project I just (about) finished.

                                     

                                    This is the multicam opened in the timeline by right-clicking.  Note there are three video tracks that are enabled (see the eye) and three audio tracks, only one of which is enabled (card_2_allynn)

                                     

                                    multiclip.jpg

                                     

                                     

                                    Now this is the Multiclip Sequence that includes the original multiclip (V1 and A1 in green) and additionaudio tracks I added (in blue) and also a mixdown from Audition (Audio 4).  Note that these clips have hard cuts through all (except the mixdown).  This shows where footage was removed.

                                    multi_seq.jpg

                                     

                                    I edited all of this by making cuts in the timeline and swapping angles manually.  Actually, because I removed so much footage, I didn't actually change angles until *after* I had made all of the cuts.

                                    • 15. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                      brarble Level 1

                                      Thanks Alynn. It all makes sense, and I see how you're doing it. But this isn't really the workflow I'm after. I don't want to have to do my cutting in the timeline with cntrl+K.

                                       

                                      I need to be able to load a clip in the source (be it multiclip or regular clip). Set i/o points. Then put it in the timeline. That's literally all I'm trying to do. If I can't do that with Premiere, that's cool, but that means I'll go elsewhere.

                                       

                                      What's weird is that is seems like CS6 was attempting to add this functionality for multiclips. I just can't get the multiclipping to work with audio only tracks (which was the issue that started the whole thing)

                                       

                                      Thanks again for trying to help!

                                      • 16. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                        Allynn Wilkinson Level 2

                                        Ironically I think FCP X might be the way for you to go.  They've just updated the multicam and added some new functionality.  There are probably lots of other workarounds for Premiere  but I can understand if you don't want to go there.

                                        1 person found this helpful
                                        • 17. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                          brarble Level 1

                                          Yeah. I was just reading about that update that too. It's a total mind melt. Part of me says "fool me once, I'm never going back to Apple." Another part of me says that if these guys made a program that hasn't been updated in three years and still works better for my needs than PrPro.... maybe they can pull the rabbit out of the hat with FCP X too. I'm at least intrigued...

                                          • 18. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                            HarleyTDavis Level 2

                                            I have worked with this only a short time, however, Nesting a sequence in another creates a problem when synching audio from a stand alone source when attempting to use a third party utility to sync, as it creates an inconsistent video source.  Therefore, I have added to the CS5-6 workflow for your assessment:

                                             

                                            1. select the clips, place in a sequence, export to a utility for synch

                                            2. upon returning to premiere, find a point for inout, and trim to it in both clips

                                            3. Nest in a new sequence, clipping to the clearer audio source, and make any transitions you need (clean up)

                                            4. Output to a file (a fully mastered file)

                                            5. Input new file in it's own bin, then add to a sequence

                                            6. add stand alone audio and send to utility to synch

                                            7. trim to video, applying new audio

                                            8. output to next step (finished video file or on to Disc workflow)

                                             

                                            If you're one of those that works with an audio-centric presentation, you need the audio at it's best, so a mixer with direct wav or wave recording is a must.  When you have a way to get that audio into a camera, you're all set, though most are limited to 16bit sampling. When you record that file to something else, and wish to have it with your multi camera video, but you have more cameras to sync than you have time for, or your synch points cannot be exact enough for your satisfaction, a third party tool helps with cs4-6.  Fortunately, the latest CC Cs suites add a tool in premiere for synching by sound files, using values smaller than you could see, and modifying the timers so that they are all in synch (different cameras will record at different sample rates, most with 16bit audio, so a common rate must be chosen to fit the data together).  I have found that Audio of 16bits or less is easier to synch by eye when 48000hz or less is the maximum sample rate.  This is considered standard band audio.  I work with HD audio of wider ranges.  I use 32bit float, 96000hz recordings to capture full ranges of sound to encompass the entirety of a live performance and capture the "Feel" of the room, as some of this will come through the mics if mixed correctly (but won't come through the speakers because of their electrical range and amp properties).  I get some of the "Echo" and "Natural Reverb" of the room, which is necessary when archiving the performance for true to life sound, or even creating that feeling on audio-cd.  If you go higher than 96000hz and you have PA for an audience, be prepared to get more echo and reverb.  I've had it produce double the echo, making the audio almost unusable (had to process the heck out of it).

                                            To get around file size limits, I use WAV with split chunk file options (legacy support).  The adobe sound programs provide it as well, but most recent audio editor\recoding applications do.  Once down sampled to Audio-cd, the 16bit versions RETAIN the echo and reverb, but the differences in the notes get closer together, which doesn't hurt all that much when the notes are in the same chord, and its harder to tell when they're in a harmonic, but different key.  You lose a little of the realism, but as accurate as it is, there is so little loss that even some trained ears have found the audio to be indistinguishable when played from a file or from a cd, and some even find the CD better quality (as the file output is down sampled and truncated by the audio playback hardware anyway, and that algorithm is rarely as good or better than the one used by a computer with a better chip and full audio editor).

                                             

                                            I know this extra info doesn't really concern this forum, but it was necessary to describe my workflow.  I produce both an audio-only cd, and a full video representation for archival.  The performances I archive are of a Choir, but the theory holds true for almost any musical post-production in live events with multiple cameras and stand-alone audio.  I also have other part-time work, so I utilize a set and forget workflow.

                                            • 19. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                              thebass Level 1

                                              I Think the original Poster was refering to the ability to Open a Synced Multi-Cam Sequence in the source monitor and pick the bits he wants, select an in and out and drop it into a new sequence.

                                              This is useful for spliting up a Multi-Cam Sequence as putting it into seperare Sequences, just the bits you want or need whilst still allowing yourself to see all of the angles.

                                               

                                              It seems are though when you Make a Multi-Cam Clip Sequence using the Make Multi-Cam option, where you get the MC Sequence Icon, where everything is shown in-line then there should be a way to be able to right click and switch it from the regular sequence and back again, as desired. If you make your own, Multi-Cam Clip Sequence, manually, then there seems to be no way to switch to a Main MC one or back.

                                               

                                              Of course I am talking about CC, where if you have a Prem Pro Auto Made MC Sequence, you can indeed, right click on it and select open in timeline, where as a double click will open it in the source monitor showing all angles as PIP's.

                                              I just realised that the OP was on about CS6, so perhaps now in CC it will do what you want, but still in any case, we need a toggle on /off to make a Sequence MC on or off, as sometimes in CC you want to make you own MC sequece from scratch and then have the option to Open it as a Multi Clip showing all the angles in the source viewer.

                                               

                                              I hope I have put things down in a way you know what I am on about, Perhaps, some else can explain it better.

                                               

                                              Prob needs submitting to the Feature Request in for CC 8.3

                                               

                                              Please allow us to Toggle Multi-Cam on and off in a clip, meaning if we need to open a seq in the Source Monitor showing all angles then we can see them, at moment you are locked into to it only if you allowed PP to make your Multicam Clips.

                                              • 20. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                                g7sharp9 Level 1

                                                To the original poster, the instructions (at least for PP CC) say that the ORDER that you choose your clips for Multi-clip matters and that you should choose the audio or the video with audio that you plan on using as the main FIRST, then the other clips.

                                                 

                                                To thebass, (and I think this is only in CC - sorry brarble) there is a way to view the Multi-Cam with the separated layers of video:

                                                 

                                                1. In the timeline of a Multi-clip, type F twice. This will open the source view and show you the Master Clip Effects Controls.  If it doesn't bring you there open the Effects Controls window. 

                                                2. Choose instead of the Master tab, the second tab (usually the name of the clip) to the right.  See photo... (In my case, Houshmand 02...)

                                                3. This will open the sequence that has all the layers of the multi clip that you previous made and are viewing.

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2014-12-20 at 7.20.42 PM.png

                                                Screen Shot 2014-12-20 at 7.23.23 PM.png

                                                 

                                                From there you can edit individual clips and order.

                                                 

                                                HTH

                                                 

                                                Will

                                                • 21. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                                  thebass Level 1

                                                  Hi Will

                                                   

                                                  Yes Thanks for that I got that, I think you can do the same by clicking the MC Sequence in the BIN and right mouse clicking open in time line.

                                                  What I mean is like when you double click a MC Source Sequence and it opens in the Source Monitor showing all the angles Pictures in Pictures.

                                                  Where as if you make you own MC Source Stack, there is no way to open it in the source monitor and see all the angles as PIPS, instead it shows only the top later, this is like how Premiere Pro Earlier version used to work.

                                                  I think a way to be able to toggle a Manual MC Source Stack to the Premiere Pro Automated Make Multi-Camera Sequence is what is needed.

                                                   

                                                  It seems right now, if you have Made one or the other then you can't switch or convert, when I think you should be able to, so hence in the post above, the sequence where they all line up can be toggled to a standard nest and vice versa

                                                   

                                                  As say prob needs a Feature Request going in, maybe one for Kevin M?

                                                  • 22. Re: creating multi-camera source sequence w/ externally recorded audio
                                                    HarleyTDavis Level 2

                                                    For reference, the OP was using CS6 and wants stand alone audio for use in multicam.  I've come up with 2 more solutions.

                                                     

                                                    A.  Sync stand alone audio with main video to produce a single file for use in multicam

                                                    B.  Place audio in an empty movie file, nothing but black screen.  Then use the movie in multicam and sync all.

                                                     

                                                    In either case, you remove the need to nest a multicam edit, and in option B might even offer yourself some spare blank loop to place your ending credits.  It also allows you to use any method you desire to sync them all up.  Remember that CC CAN DO THE SYNC FOR YOU, which older CS cannot.  This is a big part of the issue.  Because you need to nest a sequence to add stand alone audio, in CS, you would have to manually align all the files, as third party helpers do not recognize nested sequences (or you'd have to sync twice with that helper, creating at least one new file to use for syncing the rest together).  In CC, this could be done fluidly with nested sequences, as long as the sound can match up.  You still need to sync twice, but no need for a whole new file.  On some slower workstations this can save a day of processing.

                                                     

                                                    Sent from my iPhone