32 Replies Latest reply: Feb 20, 2013 10:25 PM by Web Magi RSS

    Expanded Tables Mode Missing

    QuadriviaProductions Community Member

      Where did Expanded Tables Mode go? This is a necessary feature for those of us that are required to support older versions of email programs that don't properly support div tags. Also, when I need to analyze older websites or emails I use the Expanded Tables mode as an analytical tool.

        • 1. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
          MurraySummers CommunityMVP

          VIEW > Table Mode > Expanded Tables Mode

           

          That one?

          • 2. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
            John Waller CommunityMVP

            Expanded Tables Mode was quietly removed from DW with the Cloud-only 12.1 update last month. Seems many have been caught by surprise by this move.

            http://blogs.adobe.com/dreamweaver/2012/09/dreamweaver-update-for-creative-cloud-members.h tml#comments

            http://forums.adobe.com/message/4791983#4791983

            • 3. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
              sudarshan.t CommunityMVP

              +1 John on that.

               

              File a bug report if you feel you need it back. The more reports that reach Adobe, better are the chances of them reviving it.

               

              https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

              • 4. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                David_Powers CommunityMVP

                A little birdie tells me that Expanded Tables Mode will return. Don't know when, but it's scheduled to make a comeback.

                • 5. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                  sudarshan.t CommunityMVP

                  David_Powers wrote:

                   

                  A little birdie tells me that Expanded Tables Mode will return. Don't know when, but it's scheduled to make a comeback.

                   

                   

                  • 6. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                    John Waller CommunityMVP

                    David_Powers wrote:

                     

                    A little birdie tells me that Expanded Tables Mode will return. Don't know when, but it's scheduled to make a comeback.

                    Good to hear although I do wonder about the decision making process which concluded that it seemed opportune to remove it from12.1 in the first place.

                     

                    Seems that Adobe need to improve their data gathering about which features to deprecate and when.

                     

                    They clearly got this one wrong. Will it make them think more carefully next time?

                    • 7. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                      David_Powers CommunityMVP

                      John Waller wrote:

                       

                      They clearly got this one wrong. Will it make them think more carefully next time?

                      Removing features always upsets someone, rightly or wrongly. I think the problem on this occasion is that it happened as part of an update for Creative Cloud subscribers only. The idea of the Creative Cloud is that it's meant to give early access to new features, not take existing ones away. I get the impression that Adobe has taken on board the reaction to the 12.1 "update".

                       

                      However, it does raise a question for CC subscribers. Let's say a feature that's important to you is removed from a major release (CS7 or CS8). Copies of the previous version are removed from the Adobe store as soon as a new one is released. It seems a reasonable assumption that the same will happen with the Creative Cloud. As a subscriber, you don't have a perpetual licence of the old version to roll back to.

                      • 8. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                        John Waller CommunityMVP

                        Yes, feature deprecation is inevitable as the web and software evolves. I've always accepted that. I was thinking more about the timing. Sometimes Adobe gets it wrong. 12.1 is a prime example.

                         

                        Equally unfortunate is the fact that the first ever Cloud-only update for DW has included the removal of features with no prior warning.

                         

                        We're scratching our heads and left to our own devices to explore the post-update feature set via trial-and-error in the forums.

                         

                         

                        David_Powers wrote:

                        However, it does raise a question for CC subscribers. Let's say a feature that's important to you is removed from a major release (CS7 or CS8). Copies of the previous version are removed from the Adobe store as soon as a new one is released. It seems a reasonable assumption that the same will happen with the Creative Cloud. As a subscriber, you don't have a perpetual licence of the old version to roll back to.

                        Agreed.

                         

                        I'd like to think that Adobe thought this scenario through when they were putting together the business model and policies for the Cloud.

                         

                        It's becoming increasingly clear that that is not the case. It's policy on the run in some cases, this one included.

                         

                        The only thing I've read online anywhere close to addressing this is that they give you up to 12 months to upgrade to the next version before you're "forced" to. But I think most people will upgrade the same day that the upgrade is released so I don't see this working in practice to address the scenario you've described.

                         

                        Without prior warning, everyone will assume that an upgrade means new or enhanced features - not removal.

                        • 9. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                          Nancy O. CommunityMVP

                          John Waller wrote:

                           

                          Without prior warning, everyone will assume that an upgrade means new or enhanced features - not removal.

                          Not necessarily.  Each new version of DW since CS2 has introduced some new features and removed old ones (timelines, flash buttons, HTML styles, etc...)

                           

                          In the past, it was no big deal to revert back to an older installation if one chose to. With Creative Cloud updates, I see a dire need for Adobe to put deprecated features into extensions for the people who want to continue using them. Otherwise, each upgrade will be a mixed bag of treats & tricks on users.

                           

                           

                          Nancy O.

                          • 10. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                            David_Powers CommunityMVP

                            John Waller wrote:

                             

                            Without prior warning, everyone will assume that an upgrade means new or enhanced features - not removal.

                            That's not a safe assumption, and never has been. Features have been removed from each version of Dreamweaver. CS4 saw a long list of removals:

                            • Layout mode
                            • Timelines
                            • Flash elements, Flash buttons, and Flash text
                            • Site map
                            • ASP.NET and JSP server behaviors
                            • JavaBeans
                            • Web Services panel.

                            Admittedly, most of those changes were announced a year in advance, but they still took many people by surprise.

                             

                            In fact, the big change in CS4 that was unannounced was the removal of the preference to use HTML instead of CSS. For most users, it made a lot of sense, but it caught out a lot of people who build HTML newsletters and prefer using <font> tags rather than inline CSS.

                             

                            The decision to drop Spry has been flagged up well in advance, but I bet there'll be lots of anguished cries when Spry widgets disappear from CS7.

                            • 11. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                              John Waller CommunityMVP

                              Nancy O. wrote:

                               

                              John Waller wrote:

                               

                              Without prior warning, everyone will assume that an upgrade means new or enhanced features - not removal.

                              Not necessarily.  Each new version of DW since CS2 has introduced some new features and removed old ones (timelines, flash buttons, HTML styles, etc...)

                              Yes, I understand the history but the business model these days is more mixed and the effects of feature adjustments will affect different people in different ways.

                               

                              Back then,you were talking about perpetual licenses and advance warning. In those days, users could elect not to upgrade and skip versions.

                               

                              What about today's users who cannot skip versions? Plus point-of-no-return Cloud users who cannot roll back to an earlier version? They upgrade. Don't like it? Too bad, try it and you'll learn to live with it(?)

                               

                              But those new to the Cloud will not have the insight into Adobe's past practices which you and I have garnered over the years. Just saying.

                               

                               

                              Nancy O. wrote:

                              With Creative Cloud updates, I see a dire need for Adobe to put deprecated features into extensions for the people who want to continue using them. Otherwise, each upgrade will be a mixed bag of treats & tricks on users.

                              Good suggestion. Wonder if Adobe will consider it. Could turn into an unwieldy admin and support nightmare for Adobe though.

                              • 12. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                John Waller CommunityMVP

                                David_Powers wrote:

                                 

                                John Waller wrote:

                                 

                                Without prior warning, everyone will assume that an upgrade means new or enhanced features - not removal.

                                That's not a safe assumption, and never has been.

                                Agreed David - any longstanding user of Adobe products will be aware of this.

                                 

                                Cloud newbies, however, are unlikely to have this level of awareness.

                                 

                                 

                                David_Powers wrote:

                                The decision to drop Spry has been flagged up well in advance, but I bet there'll be lots of anguished cries when Spry widgets disappear from CS7.

                                Yes, I can hear them now.

                                 

                                But Adobe must learn from misguided decisions such as the 12.1 feature set.

                                 

                                Dropping features without warning, and even rearranging the Insert panel, mid-cycle is poor practice, esp for the Cloud where there's no safety net i.e. no rolling back to the earlier version.

                                • 13. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                  David_Powers CommunityMVP

                                  John Waller wrote:

                                   

                                  Dropping features without warning, and even rearranging the Insert panel, mid-cycle is poor practice, esp for the Cloud where there's no safety net i.e. no rolling back to the earlier version.

                                  But what does mid-cycle mean in the context of Creative Cloud? It's a rolling commitment to frequent updates.

                                   

                                  The problem lies in releasing changes to a program that have the feel of being "work in progress". The half-finished changes to the Insert panel aren't the only example of that happening. It also happened with the Fluid Grid Layouts in CS6. My impression is that both decisions were forced on the engineering team by the demands of marketing to produce something "new" to coincide with a timetable that totally ignored the features' state of readiness.

                                  • 14. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                    John Waller CommunityMVP

                                    David_Powers wrote:

                                     

                                    John Waller wrote:

                                     

                                    Dropping features without warning, and even rearranging the Insert panel, mid-cycle is poor practice, esp for the Cloud where there's no safety net i.e. no rolling back to the earlier version.

                                    But what does mid-cycle mean in the context of Creative Cloud? It's a rolling commitment to frequent updates.

                                    Fair point. I'm assuming that DW's version name will eventually switch from CS6 to CS7. So guess that's what I was inferring by mid-cycle.

                                     

                                    However, as you rightly observe, for Cloud members version numbering is irrelevant. It's just another upgrade.

                                    • 15. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                      Web Magi Community Member

                                      John Waller wrote:

                                       

                                      ...Seems that Adobe need to improve their data gathering about which features to deprecate and when.

                                       

                                      Exactly! One quick glance at almost any newsletter from Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Quantcast, Social Media Examinor, SEOMoz, Webdesigner Depot, netmagazine.com - list goes on and on - and you see tables, inline styles, and sometimes even font tags.

                                       

                                      In my opinion, here is the #1 reason Adobe should make sure Dreamweaver has the necessary tools newsletter designers are going to need for the forseeable future: http://litmus.com/blog/outlook-2013-still-powered-by-word-now-available-for-email-testing

                                       

                                      Message was edited by: Web Magi

                                      • 16. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                        Web Magi Community Member

                                        Nancy O. wrote:


                                        ...With Creative Cloud updates, I see a dire need for Adobe to put deprecated features into extensions for the people who want to continue using them....

                                         

                                        For the designers like myself who need some of these features, this would be a very nice solution.

                                        • 17. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                          David_Powers CommunityMVP

                                          Web Magi wrote:


                                          you see tables, inline styles, and sometimes even font tags.

                                           

                                          In my opinion, here is the #1 reason Adobe should make sure Dreamweaver has the necessary tools newsletter designers are going to need for the forseeable future

                                          Tables, inline styles and font tags are all available in Dreamweaver, even in the latest Creative Cloud update.

                                           

                                          Neither tables nor inline styles are likely to be removed because they're also part of HTML5. Inline styles are easy to insert through the Property inspector, using the Targeted Rule menu.

                                           

                                          I don't know what's likely to happen to font tags in future versions of Dreamweaver, but you can easily insert them by selecting text, right-clicking, and choosing Wrap Tag. Code hints include the font element and face attribute. The face attribute even has code hints of its own.

                                           

                                          font_tags.jpg

                                          • 18. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                            Web Magi Community Member

                                            David_Powers wrote:

                                             

                                            Tables, inline styles and font tags are all available in Dreamweaver, even in the latest Creative Cloud update.

                                            I was referring to the ability to work with these toolsets and features visually.

                                            • 19. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                              David_Powers CommunityMVP

                                              With the exception of font tags, you can.

                                               

                                              A particular feature of using inline styles that few people seem to realize is that if you apply an inline style to a heading or paragraph, pressing Enter/Return results in the next paragraph inheriting the same inline style.

                                              • 20. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                Web Magi Community Member

                                                David_Powers wrote:

                                                 

                                                With the exception of font tags, you can.

                                                Visual tools, like the one this thread was named for:

                                                 

                                                DW8-Table-Toolset.jpg

                                                 

                                                The easiest and fastest way to design newsletters today, is to use DW8 or older.

                                                 

                                                Pretty sad.

                                                • 21. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                  David_Powers CommunityMVP

                                                  Perhaps Adobe has decided that it doesn't want to market Dreamweaver as an HTML newsletter generator.

                                                   

                                                  I don't create HTML newsletters, so I'm more interested in Dreamweaver supporting HTML5 and CSS3. Your needs are obviously different. What's sad is that Microsoft Outlook is still stuck in the past.

                                                  • 22. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                    MurraySummers CommunityMVP

                                                    I create HTML newsletters every month, but I also have pretty good facility with HTML tables.  Nevertheless, I use quite a bit of CSS for presentation (not for layout though, sadly) and it comes through pretty well....

                                                    • 23. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                      Web Magi Community Member

                                                      David_Powers wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Perhaps Adobe has decided that it doesn't want to market Dreamweaver as an HTML newsletter generator.

                                                       

                                                      That sounds about right, but I can't think of one worthy company that doesn't send out newsletters regularly, including Adobe.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      David_Powers wrote:

                                                       

                                                      I don't create HTML newsletters, so I'm more interested in Dreamweaver supporting HTML5 and CSS3. Your needs are obviously different. What's sad is that Microsoft Outlook is still stuck in the past.

                                                       

                                                      Not different, just broader perhaps. I still need DW to support HTML5, CSS3, tools for mobile development, and future web standards.

                                                       

                                                      And I definitely agree with you regarding Microsoft and Outlook, but lets not forget the behemoth Google, and their Gmail service, which the last time I checked, still stripps out CSS from all emails.

                                                      • 24. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                        MurraySummers CommunityMVP

                                                        but lets not forget the behemoth Google, and their Gmail service, which the last time I checked, still stripps out CSS from all emails.

                                                         

                                                        I just checked - Gmail neither stripped CSS from the head nor from the body of the email.

                                                        • 25. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                          John Waller CommunityMVP

                                                          I just checked - Gmail neither stripped CSS from the head nor from the body of the email.

                                                           

                                                          Might depend on the email and how its constructed. Issues certainly exist with CSS in emails in Gmail but the rules seem to change.

                                                           

                                                          http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/post/3652/gmail-strips-out-inline-css/

                                                          • 26. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                            MurraySummers CommunityMVP

                                                            My page has inline, and embedded CSS in a table-based layout.  Gmail stripped nothing.

                                                            • 27. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                              John Waller CommunityMVP

                                                              Good to hear.

                                                               

                                                              But it obviously still happens to other emails.

                                                              • 28. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                                Web Magi Community Member

                                                                I guess I should have been more specific. My reference to CSS was in the traditional sense, with regards to external stylesheets attached in the HTML header, I just didn't write it out that way. My apologies.

                                                                 

                                                                I'm not sure I've ever had an issue with Gmail and inline styles, not since I first understood this anyway: http://litmus.com/help/email-clients/gmail/gmail-no-head

                                                                • 29. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                                  MurraySummers CommunityMVP

                                                                  Right - you can never use an external stylesheet in an HTML email.  And CSS layout is very very dicey.  But text presentation and very light position is OK.  And if you embed your stylesheet within the body, it will escape the decapitation, so to speak.

                                                                  • 31. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                                    Sarthak Singhal Employee Hosts

                                                                    Expanded Tables View has been restored with the latest 12.2 CCM update for Dreamweaver. Right-click a table and select Table > Expanded Tables Mode from the options.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Expanded Tables Mode Missing
                                                                      Web Magi Community Member

                                                                      Sarthak Singhal wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      Expanded Tables View has been restored with the latest 12.2 CCM update for Dreamweaver.

                                                                      Very much appreciated, thank you!

                                                                       

                                                                      What are your thoughts on adding back to the interface the ability to work with this and other table features visually, rather than just contextually, like so?:

                                                                       

                                                                      Insert-Bar-Layout.png