1 2 Previous Next 47 Replies Latest reply on Sep 7, 2013 12:52 PM by JEShort01

    Build Advice - Dell T7600

    JETNeuro

      i have put together funds for a T7600 and a U3011 monitor.

      so far this is what i plan to order

      Tower               -          T7600

      CPUS               -     2x E5-2620's

      RAM               -     32 GB from a thrid party supplier

      Boot Drive          -     256gb SSD

      scratch disk     -     not sure

      media drive     -     not sure

      Video card     -     Quadro K5000

       

      i cannot do a home built PC but i also cannot afford the entirety of the computer from dell. so i plan to buy a few components from thrid party suppliers, such as the RAM, GPU and Hard drives. Precision is really the only line i can work with.

       

      it is extremely painful to work with dell to get something that matches what most forum members recommend build wise for Pr and Ae. to get a three tier HD set up is near impossible. i am worried about configuring a SSD boot, an internal RAID 5, and a scratch disk.

       

      i feel like maybe settling for a G tech drive might be best with the SSD and scratch disk being internal.

      any help would be appreciated.

        • 1. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          For that system, without memory, without disks, just the components you mentioned, the price is already $ 4200.

           

          Even dual Xeon E5-2630's with 64 GB memory and similar video cards are around two times slower than a fast machine that comes complete for a lower price. There must be a specific reason you want to burn money on a Dell, that is costly, crippled by the BIOS and limited in their options for expansion with third party raid controllers, due to their cable connectors.

           

          Care to explain that?

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
            JETNeuro Level 1

            what fast complete machines are you speaking of?

            • 4. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
              Harm Millaard Level 7

              Have a look here: Benchmark Results

               

              and pay attention to the systems at rank #2, 3 and 12. Compare that to the best Dell dual Xeon E5-2620 systems at rank #259 and 266, both around 2.5 to 2.7 times slower than the top machine. The system at the top is my own system, which is described here: Planning & Building a NLE System. I tried to configure a system like you described at Dell, but stopped when the price exceeded € 9500. Of course my machine comes in pretty high priced, only around 25% lower than the Dell price, but with over 25 TB of disk storage and it is way faster for a better price and better capabilities.

              • 5. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                Custom systems integrators - while certainly having the ability to offer great support, value, and custom configurations fit for a specific function (such as shaving seconds off synthetic benchmarks), do not have the ability to offer the enterprise grade support or engineering that Tier 1 makers (Dell, HP) do. That includes enterprise quality components, national and worldwide on-site support, certain other things.

                 

                To answer your questions:

                 

                Scratch disk (paging file): leave it on default and do not dedicate a disk to it.  Here is why.

                Media Drive: depends on (1) your budget; (2) workflow requirements.  Commonly a media volume is two or more 7200rpm drivers suitable for video editing such as HGST 7K3000 or 7K4000 series 2TB or 3TB drives. 3TB "enterprise class" Ultrastar models are around $300-350 ea.

                 

                Note 1: PPBM5 is a synthetic benchmark that does not necessarily represent what's best for your specific workflow.  For example, one of the most commonly requested features, smooth playback without dropped frames, is not factored into the scores at all.  In other words, a good PPBM5 score could be entirely meaningless for your specific situation.

                 

                Note 2: I find it very "interesting", and rather unusual for a professional forum, that people would try to convince you to get a different solution instead of trying to answer the question.  Unfortunately it's very common here.  On Creative Cow's Premiere Pro forum, for instance, responders usually do not try to convince you that the solution you are looking for, sucks.

                 

                HTH.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 6. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                  Alex - DV411 Level 2

                  Graphics card: K5000 is fine, it's a great card.  If you are on a budget however (and don't need 10-bit color support in AE or PS), consider getting a "graphics-less" T7600 and adding a GeForce GTX-670 separately.  That will save about $1,600, and won't affect performance; although Dell warranty won't cover it of course.

                  • 7. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                    Alex,

                     

                    I agree it would be nice to test for number of dropped frames in a timeline, but there is no way to do that on a public test. The required debugging tools to do that are not available to the general public and fall under NDA's. I think we have done the best we can with the tools available to us and sure, it is not optimal, nothing ever really is and that is why the human race invented words like 'progress' and 'evolution' and 'updates' or 'upgrades' to reflect that.

                    the enterprise grade support or engineering that Tier 1 makers (Dell, HP) do. That includes enterprise quality components, national and worldwide on-site support, certain other things.

                     

                    The first thing to note is that these Tier 1 makers are simple 'box handlers'. They shove boxes out of the door, without understanding a single bit of video editing, in contrast to custom builders, who work daily with these applications. If one has a problem with dropped frames, don't go near a Tier 1 maker, since he knows sh*t about it and will reply, 'the hardware is working, right? Well, then there is no problem.'

                     

                    As to the enterprise quality components, that also is very debatable. They have - understandably - a very clear tendency to cut costs and the enterprise quality components you mention can be found on every street corner for a third of the price and often are just consumer products, like the disks they ship with their systems. Nothing 'enterprise quality' about them. Their boxes usually come from China and if you know anything about the quality of work done in China it may make you think twice.

                     

                    'Worldwide on-site support' is relevant for how many here? On-site support in Nepal, Gambia, Latvia, San Marino, Burkina Faso? Their support is limited to exchanging faulty hardware components, that's it. They will not and can not support application problems or driver issues that cause dropped frames, for instance.

                     

                    I've had my share of problems with Tier 1 made servers and am not impressed with their support. Sure, they are correct, civil and try to be helpful, but at the end it boils down to either sending a replacement part or sending a mechanic to exchange the part for you. That's all.

                     

                    Meanwhile, you are still using a very expensive system with crippled BIOS that prevents overclocking, that uses not standard cable connectors (Dell) or non-standard PSU dimensions (HP), that limit your choices of third party components, and deliver nothing more than mediocre performance for a premium price.

                     

                    With regards to pagefile size, Windows has a very poor algorithm to establish the optimal size on a given system. It usually defaults to a number based on the installed memory by multiplying it with factor X, so at one moment it has size Y and the next it has size Z. On conventional disks this is disastrous, because it leads to fragmentation, and serious performance degradation, because the growth of the file does not occur on the fastest parts of the drive. For SSD's that problem is less, but the dynamic nature of the pagefile requires extra write cycles on a SSD that has limited write cycles to start with and thus shortens the life of the SSD.

                     

                    For Win8 I absolutely recommend, in light of the memory dump method in case of crashes, to only use a static pagefile (min = max) on the boot drive. Never dynamic. For Win7 there is less necessity to put the pagefile on the boot drive and it may be better to put it as the first file on another drive, on the fastest part of the disk.

                    • 8. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                      JETNeuro Level 1

                      Alex, do you know what tom van slyks Hard drive config is like? i do not have an account to ask him.

                       

                      i plan to emulate his set up

                       

                      http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/929863#929863

                      • 9. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                        JETNeuro Level 1

                        i am going to buck harms advice. it was greatly appreciated and an obvious well built collection of hardware and trends. if it were not for my business wanting me to deal through a vendor we are familiar with i would go that route.

                         

                        here is my build and my last question:

                         

                        T7600

                        2x E5-2620

                        32 GB of RAM

                        256 SSD boot drive (C:)

                        Quadro 4000

                        U3011

                         

                        i still need a solution for a media drive (D:) and a render drive (E:)

                        the drives necessary for this will be purchased via a third party.

                        • 10. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                          For media drive I would opt for a parity array using the CERC/PERC controller, for instance 5 drive raid5 and for the render drive 2 x raid0, since if you lose them, all you have to do is re-render.

                           

                          Problem is to fit it all in that case.

                          • 11. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                            JETNeuro Level 1

                            a dell rep recommended a RAID 10 vs a RAID 5.

                             

                            im not sure which one to select.

                             

                            also there are three kinds of perc controlls to choose from. ill inquire with dell what would work best with the RAID 5

                            • 12. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                              Harm,

                               

                              Maybe we'll cross swords on Tier 1 vs. DIY/customs sometimes - but this thread isn't the place for it.  My point remains: if someone specifically asks for a Tier 1 system and says, "well, I have my reasons to choose it" - telling him in no subtle terms that it sucks is offensive, not to mention wrong.  You can count on me to turn a spotlight on this.  You personally may believe all Tier 1 systems are horrendous wastes of money - this is not a good reason to air that opinion in every possible thread instead of helping people.

                               

                              And yes, the techs in Murmansk and Anchorage alike know what a Z800 is, and can support it, unlike a bunch of COTS components rigged together for the purpose of shaving seconds off PPBM5 scores which has dubious effect on real-world performance and stability.  (Yes DIYs are cheaper; the stingy ones pay twice.)

                               

                              Paging file.  Using the paging file is an emergency measure; if the system hit the memory limit and has to use it (even on an SSD), the performance will be certainly inadequate for editing. I see no point "tuning" it for performance, as there will be no performance with it.

                              • 13. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                Alex, do you know what tom van slyks Hard drive config is like? i do not have an account to ask him.

                                I don't but his setup is likely serving a different purpose than yours will.  What type of video files will you be working with? What cameras? What type of video editing? (26Mp time lapses, cut-only documentaries, live events with 27 cameras, music videos with frequent dynamic linking to AE?)  How many hours of video do you want to have the room for on your main media drive?  What are your back up and archiving needs?

                                 

                                Answers to these questions should determine your media volume config.  That said, and as mentioned above, it's usually 2+ drives in RAID0 or RAID5; rarely RAID10; I wouldn't trust Dell's advice on it, that's for sure.

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 14. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                  Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                  a dell rep recommended a RAID 10 vs a RAID 5.

                                   

                                  im not sure which one to select.

                                   

                                  also there are three kinds of perc controlls to choose from. ill inquire with dell what would work best with the RAID 5

                                  If you will not be using Dell drives for media - then none.

                                   

                                  You may not need a Dell RAID controller - especially if you are trying to save money - and especially if you are using RAID0 on four or fewer drives fo which Windows striping (RAID0) is more than adequate.

                                   

                                  If, say, you plan to add three drives in RAID0 as your media volume once your T7600 arrives - choose "no RAID", and "no RAID controller, thank you very much".

                                   

                                  I'd advise against dedicating disks to "export" or "render" volumes - it's generally counter-productive and adds unnecessary complexity to the system.  Adding those disks to the main media volume is usually a better way.

                                  • 15. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                    JETNeuro Level 1

                                    i will be working in Pr heavily in the beginning and then as i learn more about Ae and can adobt it into my work flow i will utilzie it. the camera i have right now is an ancient sony weekend family video camera that shoots in SD. i am replacing it with a canon DSLR. i most likely will not be able to afford a Mark 5D iii but that is a goal to eventually have. at this time nothing higher than 1080i or 1080p at the mostttttttt.

                                     

                                    my basic idea for my drives is this:

                                     

                                    256 SSD boot

                                    RAID 5 or 10 for media

                                    RAID 0 for render

                                     

                                    like you have pointed out dell is a bit sheepish when it comes to support. i currently have an email with a tech now asking what it is i need to do if i place an order for a T7600 and install drives myself. i want to make sure they include everything for a RAID 5 or 10 and a second RAID set up for 0.

                                     

                                    then it would just be a matter of selecting hard drives. the SSD is already spoken for as its dells generic SSD, i htink the samsung 830.

                                     

                                    what do you rec Alex?

                                    • 16. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                      Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                      32 GB of RAM

                                      256 SSD boot drive (C:)

                                      Quadro 4000

                                      U3011

                                       

                                      i still need a solution for a media drive (D:) and a render drive (E:)

                                      the drives necessary for this will be purchased via a third party.

                                      U3011 - great monitor.

                                      32GM RAM - registered or unbuffered? For future expandability, it should be registered.

                                      256GB SSD - from Dell? (Would you know what its specs are? For instance, HP's SSDs are older Intel models that don't do their systems justice; it's better to add current top crop Intel or Samsung SSDs after the fact; Dell SSDs may be OK -  just haven't dealt with them.)

                                      • 17. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                        Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                        i will be working in Pr heavily in the beginning and then as i learn more about Ae and can adobt it into my work flow i will utilzie it. the camera i have right now is an ancient sony weekend family video camera that shoots in SD. i am replacing it with a canon DSLR. i most likely will not be able to afford a Mark 5D iii but that is a goal to eventually have. at this time nothing higher than 1080i or 1080p at the most.

                                        Got it.

                                        my basic idea for my drives is this:

                                         

                                        256 SSD boot

                                        RAID 5 or 10 for media

                                        RAID 0 for render

                                        How many drives in each RAID set? T7600 only has room for 4-5 LFF (3.5") drives; four more for SFF ones (2.5") with the optional SFF cage.  As Harm said, it's a question how you will fit two RAID sets (especially RAID5 requires a minimum of three drives) in that T7600.

                                         

                                        If you do want RAID5 for media, forgo the separate render volume, just use four drives in RAID5 for everything.  Or, add an external storage box.

                                        1 person found this helpful
                                        • 18. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                          JETNeuro Level 1

                                          If you do want RAID5 for media, forgo the separate render volume, just use four drives in RAID5 for everything.  Or, add an external storage box.

                                          this is also an option and what im trying to better understand from the Dell rep. i like the idea of having the boot drive being a 256 SSD, and having an internal RAID 5, with an external RAID 0 from G-tech for renders. but here are two questions that comes from that. the drive space is an issue because the T7600 can handle 8 total drives but its a mix mash of 3.5 and 2.5 and a mix of 6.0 and 3.0 gb/s connections.

                                           

                                          what performance issue is there with connecting an external RAID 0 device?

                                           

                                          what difference in peformance would their be between swapping the RAID's position? IE having the RAID 5 be externally conneted and the RAID 0 internally connected which is also possible via g-tech.

                                           

                                          again i am curious as to what people say about external configs that are not directly connected to the raid controller.

                                          • 19. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                                            For external raid storage, the most common and affordable solution is to use a raid controller with several SFF-8088 multilane connections. Otherwise you need to go to FC which is much more expensive. The external housing needs to have a SFF-8088 backplane for that to work or you need forward breakout cables, which makes it much more susceptible to errors in the various connections. A loose cable and such. However CERC/PERC controllers from Dell are not among these to offer those options. Using SFF-8088 does not entail any performance penalty, using eSATA OTOH entails serious performance penalties.

                                            • 20. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                              JETNeuro Level 1

                                              so if i chose to use an external RAID storage, do not use the USB connection even if it is USB 3.0?

                                               

                                              i should buy an internal RAID controller that uses SFF-8088 connectors.

                                               

                                              what housing requirements are necessary for the drives?

                                              • 21. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                JETNeuro Level 1

                                                i was able to price out a External SAS/SATA unit like you suggested. thank you

                                                • 22. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                  so if i chose to use an external RAID storage, do not use the USB connection even if it is USB 3.0?

                                                   

                                                  Only if you want that raid to be even slower than eSATA, which is already slow for raid configurations. USB3 is acceptable for single disks, although significantly slower than eSATA, but not for raid arrays.

                                                  • 23. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                    Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                    what housing requirements are necessary for the drives?

                                                    Like Harm said, it depends on the number of drives, speed demands and desired fault tolerance (what he calls "parity RAIDs").  Based on your workflow (dSLR, limited number of layers), the requirements aren't high and even two drives in RAID0 over USB 3.0 or eSATA will do, which adds little cost.

                                                     

                                                    If you are up to having 4+ drives, and would consider RAID5 or 6 - by all means, MiniSAS is the best there is for direct-attached storage.  Adds anywhere between $1K to $3K before you add drives: $300-1K for the RAID controller, $500-2K for the box.

                                                     

                                                    With MiniSAS, watch out for:

                                                    - Expander vs. non-expander enclosures

                                                    - 6G backplanes vs. 3G

                                                    - RAID controller performance (varies quite a bit)

                                                    - cache size and fault-tolerance (battery- or solid-state- backed)

                                                     

                                                    As you may see from my many posts on Creative Cow on the topic, I like Areca expander boxes for "pro" (but not enterprise grade) configurations, and ATTO RAID controllers.

                                                     

                                                    I also love HP and Dell RAID controllers - but not for performance - for unified and easy enterprise grade management.

                                                     

                                                    HTH.

                                                    • 24. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                      Popular believe is the OEM's use components that are not available to channel or custom builders. That is absolutely incorrect. The hardware pool is worldwide and available for any company to purchase minus custom boards or video cards for laptop shells or Apple units. Honestly the the ODM that makes apples components also manufacturers components for Intel and HP and that is not uncommon in this industry. Be aware that any company who states otherwise is marketing.

                                                       

                                                      Eric

                                                      ADK

                                                      • 25. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                        Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                        Be aware that any company who states otherwise is marketing.

                                                        I am afraid I represent just such a company although I rarely do any marketing.

                                                        Popular believe is the OEM's use components that are not available to channel or custom builders. That is absolutely incorrect.

                                                        Maybe some (components are available as COTS ones) but far from all.  So the popular belief isn't all that "absolutely incorrect" - unless you can show me where I can legally buy and use HP Z820 or DL380 cases.  The case matters because of custom airflow, backplane, cable management.  It's an extremely well designed thing of engineering beauty, as well - something I can't say of even top notch COTS server and gaming components.

                                                         

                                                        I say that having worked with Compaq / HP systems for over a decade while integrating custom systems for even longer than that and I have no vested interest in either.  In fact, Tier 1 make less money for integrators and VARs, as well as less configuration freedom and performance BFTB.  That doesn't take away their benefits.

                                                        • 26. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                          I was excluding the case units which are essentially branding for any company. The core system components are what I am referring to. A DIY could build a system in a Bookshelf or Speaker housing if they wanted to and configure the airflow properly which I have seen done online. I will state though that there are many case options out there open to end users that have as good of Cooling or greater than the OEM cases. The Rackmounts regardless of who is selling them come from a core of Case manufacturers that specialize in Rackmounts which means the internal designs are very similar. There is nothing special with the OEM's on those.

                                                           

                                                          Eric

                                                          ADK

                                                          • 27. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                            Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                            I was excluding the case units which are essentially branding for any company.

                                                            Sure, the car's chassis is just "branding".  Rrrrright.

                                                             

                                                            Eric, have you even seen the Z820 or T7600?  I don't mean just the pics on the Internet.

                                                             

                                                            Name one COTS case that has dedicated memory bank cooling?

                                                            • 28. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                              Systems and Cars are not the same and comparing them is pointless. Computer cases are customizable completely if you are willing to order the ODM requirement. A company can customize anything including add ons provided that Piece requirement is filled for the line changes that have to be done.

                                                               

                                                              Memory cooling can be done 3rd party if its even needed which it's not with today's low voltage ram. That is completely pointless now. What needs cooling now is the voltage regulator. That is the weak link in the thermal chain now.


                                                              Eric

                                                              ADK

                                                              • 29. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                Systems and Cars are not the same and comparing them is pointless.

                                                                Like, in each case the chassis is the backbone of the product that carries all the components and its design has a direct impact on what components can be used, how easy they are to access and service, and ultimately determines the airflow and heat dissipation. Of course it's pointless.   I am such a goof for even suggesting that.

                                                                Memory cooling can be done 3rd party if its even needed which it's not with today's low voltage ram.

                                                                You ever held a DDR3-1600 stick in your hands after it was under load for 10-15 minutes?  Don't burn your hands.

                                                                 

                                                                3rd party memory coolers that don't block your CPU air flow and/or don't add cables? Good luck with that and congratulations, you just added another level of complexity to your system.

                                                                 

                                                                And certainly, HP and Dell's both designing their cases with dedicated memory cooling is just engineers gone bonkers. Why would they do that?

                                                                 

                                                                Your solution to memory cooling is to use the more expensive LV memory with slower timings?  Way to go Eric.

                                                                • 30. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                  1. There are far more cases out there by direct to end user manufacturers or available to system configurators that allow excellent cooling or water cooling options. There is nothing special to OEM branded cases for that. Stating such is a joke.

                                                                  2. With the proper fans and CPU heatsinks without overclocking on todays platforms, cooling is no where near an issue. The standard temps of boards are 25 to 40C which is well below threshold and CPU's are 33C to 45C which is well below thresholds. Absolutely no special cooling is required for those temps. With those idle temps, load temps stay well within peek thresholds of 75C for boards and 100C+ for CPU's

                                                                  3. Yes I have held our Low Voltage ram sticks many times in my hands after burning in for Days. They were warm at best. Once again if you used low voltage ram, you would know this. The days of Extremely hot ram are over with. I suggest you actually build a system with them before you comment.

                                                                  4. With the Coolers we use and are available, absolutely the 3rd part coolers can be used with CPU cooling if you get the right units.  Once again you might want to actually build these systems or go watch videos of builders online who do that and show you.

                                                                  5. If you really think HP or Dell is sitting in labs designing airflow for cases with today's current platforms and the far lower heat generation, then you are way behind the times. These functions are handed out to case manufacturers who actually ODM the cases for them. BTW these same Case manufacturers are also building cases for the direct to end user market as well.

                                                                  6. Yes we use low voltage ram that has slower timings for stability and compatibility. Our testing has shown zero performance gain with low latency ram where as DDR3 1600 speeds have shown some. Our systems are benchmarked and posted on public sites like the PPBM5. Are yours?

                                                                   

                                                                  Eric
                                                                  ADK

                                                                  • 31. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                    Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                    Did I ask if you held low voltage RAM stick in your hands?  If not, why bother answering questions nobody asked?

                                                                    1. There are far more cases out there by direct to end user manufacturers or available to system configurators that allow excellent cooling or water cooling options. There is nothing special to OEM branded cases for that. Stating such is a joke.

                                                                    You can keep repeating that, and I will keep saying that there isn't a case out there matching Z820 on all of the points below as standard features:

                                                                    • fully tool-less and nearly cable-less including PSU, optical bays, drive trays, CPU and memory fans, with the exception of CPUs and their heat sinks
                                                                    • SAS/SATA backplane
                                                                    • built-in handles
                                                                    • rackmount-able
                                                                    • dedicated memory cooling
                                                                    • segmented airflow (like in a Mac Pro - but not in T7600)

                                                                     

                                                                    I am sure there is something yet I didn't think of - I've posted this rundown at least once before.  Sure you can find cases with some of these features but not with all of them, and certainly not where there is a single point of support for all of the system's components.

                                                                     

                                                                    I have yet to meet a technician or a systems integrator who, after handling the Z820, wouldn't marvel at its design and engineering.  Sure it comes at a price, but knocking it down without having hands-on experience is indeed, a joke.

                                                                    5. If you really think HP or Dell is sitting in labs designing airflow for cases with today's current platforms and the far lower heat generation, then you are way behind the times. These functions are handed out to case manufacturers who actually ODM the cases for them. BTW these same Case manufacturers are also building cases for the direct to end user market as well.

                                                                    You even read how the Z800 was designed before saying the above... errr... thing?

                                                                    6. Yes we use low voltage ram that has slower timings for stability and compatibility. Our testing has shown zero performance gain with low latency ram where as DDR3 1600 speeds have shown some. Our systems are benchmarked and posted on public sites like the PPBM5. Are yours?

                                                                    There Eric goes again touting his benchmarks and demanding them from everyone else in the sandbox.  Publicly available Z-series benchmarks not enough?

                                                                     

                                                                    If one of your customers decides to max out the RAM on one of your boxes with 1.5v quad-ranks and all hell breaks loose in terms of stability and reliability, you will still think dedicated memory cooling is a joke?  And if you don't support standard voltage memory on your systems, guess again who supports their systems better?

                                                                    • 32. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                      1. We dont sell 1.5V ram in the X79 or Dual Xeon systems. Only 1.35V ram goes in those systems. The Dual Channel systems dont require them since the ram even at 1.5V doesnt get that hot with 4 sticks.  We are a Pro Audio and Videoediting system configuration company. The Pro Audio world requires Maximum cooling efficiency with least fan noise or ambient noise period.  If that means using 1.35V ram only to achieve that then that is what we do. Our systems are configured Fully banked with 8 or 16 ram installed with zero heat issues and the ram stays warm. Since we are building quiet systems then that is absolutely important to us. So no we have zero clients who have fully configured systems with ram instability due to heat. Yes ram cooling is a joke and we wont use it because it add's noise to the system. Along with that we use extremely quiet Noctua fans in our cases with Voltage resisters to further slow the speed of the fans down and lower noise. BTW any end user can buy those fans as well.

                                                                       

                                                                      2. Since we don't have those problems with our systems your comments on support are completely pointless and foolish.

                                                                       

                                                                      3. Do you really believe that kind of material is not taken from the original design manufacturer. Are you that naive? Intel, HP, Apple, and many others take the information given to them by the companies and promote the product as their own engineered and manufactured. Apple doesn't build any of their components and you think their marketing material means they do? Please talk to engineers in TW before you assume these things.

                                                                       

                                                                      Eric

                                                                      ADK

                                                                      • 33. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                        Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                        Yes ram cooling is a joke and we wont use it because it add's noise to the system.

                                                                        Right. Unless it's an HP, and their funny dedicated memory cooling just had to be noticed by other comedians in the industry?

                                                                        Are you that naive? Intel HP, Apple, and many others take the information given to them by the companies and promote the product as their own engineered and manufactured. Apple doesn't build any of their components and you think their marketing material means they do?

                                                                        Eric, do you understand the difference between design, engineering and manufacturing?

                                                                         

                                                                        Try telling someone Apple or HP didn't design their flagship products. They'll tell you that you are very, very funny.

                                                                        • 34. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                          Tell me can you overclock an HP system yes or no.

                                                                           

                                                                          I completely know the difference between them and talk to the engineers as well as the ones in the East. They dont laugh at me either. Maybe you should talk to them.

                                                                           

                                                                          Eric

                                                                          ADK

                                                                          • 35. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            The PPBM Benchamrk actually tests systems and configurations in a real world workflow with todays codecs. Simulated benchmarks only test raw performance of a component. The PPBM5 tests the entire pipeline with Adobe's applications. That is why it's good for what it does and is important for editors to see why they have the performance they do with their systems.

                                                                             

                                                                            Eric

                                                                            ADK

                                                                            • 36. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                              Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                              Tell me can you overclock an HP system yes or no.

                                                                              You already know the answer. Why ask?

                                                                              I completely know the difference between them and talk to the engineers as well as the ones in the East. They dont laugh at me either. Maybe you should talk to them.

                                                                              Which HP engineer told you HP didn't have any input on the Z800 design?

                                                                              • 37. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                                Alex - DV411 Level 2

                                                                                The PPBM Benchamrk actually tests systems and configurations in a real world workflow with todays codecs. Simulated benchmarks only test raw performance of a component. The PPBM5 tests the entire pipeline with Adobe's applications. That is why it's good for what it does and is important for editors to see why they have the performance they do with their systems.

                                                                                I agree that PPBM5 is the best there is to test Adobe Premiere Pro performance although I have my reservations about its relevance to real-world workflows. No editing system runs PPBM5-like loads 24/7, and a major component of editing workflows (number of dropped frames in realtime playback; smoothness of scrubbing) is not tested for - even if for a good reason.  Quite a few editing systems need to have a 24/7 stability (rather than the absolute fastest performance) and have a standardized approach to setup, maintenance and support.

                                                                                 

                                                                                All that said, I don't see a Z820 on PPBM5 roster, and agree it'd be good to have it there.  When and if I get my hands on high-spec one, I will try to get a PPBM5 score on it.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                  Why doesn't HP offer overclocking on any of their systems? Even Dell now does through Alienware.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Did I state HP engineers specifically. I talk to engineers at some of the ODM's who also happen to sell hardware to HP as well. Funny how they happen to know how the raw manufacturing and logistics of this industry work. If you quit assuming and actually read my posts then you will see several of your assumptions are incorrect. I also never said that the OEM company engineers don't design and schematic some things like the case you mentioned. However the manufacturing engineering required for tooling lines and testing samples is often offloaded to the ODM's since they already have the infrastructure and personnel to do it. It's simply more efficient and cost effective for the companies that buy the manufactured components from the ODM's.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Eric

                                                                                  ADK

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Build Advice - Dell T7600
                                                                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                    Raid 10 works fine on onboard raid controllers with the long rebuild times after a drive failure as the only major drawback. Parity raids however do not work well on the onboard raid controllers and really require a dedicated raid card. The Parity verification on dedicated raid controllers and the vastly better rebuild times make dedicated raid cards the only real option. Also the problem of drives prematurely dropping out of raids during a repair process is far more likely on onboard raid controllers than dedicated ones even with enterprise drives. The dedicated raid controllers have timeout periods far more suitable for that problem.  The final consideration is performance with parity raids on dedicated raid cards. With the dedicated cache and better caching models, dedicated raid cards are far better than onboard raid controllers. I would avoid using software raids such as Dynamic Disk even if raid 0. The performance hit on caching multiple streams is not worth it when almost every board has onboard hardware raid controllers currently.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    USB3 has the same performance as E-Sata for individual drives if you have the certain USB3 controllers and certain firmware. However E-Sata raid units are faster right now with a little lower latency. You can use a raid 0 external but really there is no reason to. I would suggest exporting to the Raid 5 or Raid 10 and then Archive on an external USB3 or E-Sata unit.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Eric

                                                                                    ADK

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