19 Replies Latest reply on Nov 27, 2012 3:08 PM by rob day

    Importance of embedding ICC profiles

    Nina_Storm Level 1

      I have created a package of logos in different versions. 30 versions in all. However each logo weights around 1.2 mb. It contains nothing but a few vectors and colors, no blends no images.

      If I save as unchecking "Embed ICC profile" the weights falls to around 188 k

       

      Is it a bad idea unchecking the ICC profile?

      I suppose it has no effect If I export pdf’s using the "Convert to destination (Preseve Numbers)" setting? - As long as it only contains vectors?

       

      BR

      Nina Storm

        • 1. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          How important is color appearance to you? If you don't include profiles it will be impossible to color manage the color appearance on different devices.

           

          A simple example would be if you are spec'ing CMYK colors and your document CMYK profile is US SWOP and you send the file to me without a profile, the color will shift if my application's CMYK working space is something other than US SWOP. So if I place your PDF logo in my document that has US Sheetfed assigned the logo colors will likely appear darker because US Sheetfed allows for more dot gain than US SWOP.

           

          There are some cases where you can argue for not including a profile—say you value saturation over  appearance. You might want a logo with 100% cyan, or 50% yellow objects to never be converted—you simply want to print the brightest cyan possible whether it's on newsprint or gloss coat. In that case not including profiles make output conversions less likely, but it doesn't stop someone from forcing one down stream.

          • 2. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Nor is there a reason to include a profile if the logo is spot colors.

             

            I've taken to not embedding profiles in most logo work, but if it uses process colors I do include the colorspace as part of the file name and make new versions if required for other spaces. It has proved to be less of a problem this way than having the profiles embedded for things like solid black and one spot logos that were created in SWOP and convert to a four-color black and spot when they wind up in a sheet-fed profiled document.

             

            It helps, of course, that I control the entire process. When things go to other designers it gets trickier.

            • 3. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
              Nina_Storm Level 1

              Thank you Rob and Peter

               

              I’ll have no control down the line as it will be distributed to other designers.

               

              I am embarresed to admit that I thought logos would keep colors "by numbers" if only plain colors are used.

              I see now that keeping colors by numbers requires "no embeddes profiles". Otherwise the colors will be colormanged (change), as Rob describes, if opened in another color space.

               

              Thank you (though I am still in doubt what to do).

               

              :-)

              • 4. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                If you want the numbers preserved, even at the expense of a color shift on output, don't embed the profiles. If the logos use mixed process colors and will generate 4 plates anyway, then I would leave the profiles embedded in hopes the other user gets the management right and the appearance of the color is maintained.

                • 5. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                  Nina_Storm Level 1

                  I’ll keep the profile and accept the larger files.

                   

                  Thanks again

                  • 6. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Thank you (though I am still in doubt what to do).

                     

                    Why is file size a problem 30mb doesn't seem excessive even if you are delivering via the web.

                     

                    You might consider PDF/X-1a, which includes a Output Intent profile but not a profile. A PDF/X-1a file acts like a PDF without an embedded profile—if you place or print it the CMYK numbers remain unchanged—but if you open it in AcrobatPro it previews by default with the  output intent profile and lets someone downstream know what you expect the appearance to be. It does not solve your file size problem.

                    • 7. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                      Nina_Storm Level 1

                      Thank you Rob - I’ll have the option in mind, in this case I embed the profile.

                       

                      Size can be an issue if the package is mailed …

                       

                      Problem solved for today - Thanks

                      • 8. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        I use YouSendIt for transfering files too large for email. I have a paid account which gives me a dropbox others can use to send stuff to me and a few other bells and whistles, but they have free basic service, too, which allows transfer of a single file at a time up to 50 mb, which is probably sufficient if you compress your ID packages before sending.

                        • 9. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                          MW Design Level 4

                          And for a couple companies I beta test for, we use a simple service, wikisend. Main thing about that service is it is dead simple for the users involved. But there isn't the inbox/outbox structure of either dropbox or yousendit. Then again, someone sending files to you don't need an account, etc.

                           

                          Take care, Mike

                          • 10. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                            Nina_Storm Level 1

                            I have an additional question.

                             

                            Delivering a "logo-package" I make .ai files (not eps) and for office I make oversized .png and RGB .ai files if someone needs to do a specific websize.

                             

                            I have now been asked to deliver .eps and .jpg - I don’t understand why, I think it is "old-fashioned".

                             

                            What do you do?

                             

                            :-) Nina Storm

                            • 11. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              I think you can argue that eps is a dying format. Why not .pdf?

                              • 12. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                I get asked for jpeg and eps by one client, too. He still uses Pagemaker...

                                 

                                Usually for logos you can convince the cleint that jpeg is jut not an appropriate format. If they can't use .png, perhaps a .gif?

                                1 person found this helpful
                                • 13. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                  Nina_Storm Level 1

                                  Rob, I ser your point, though I can imagine people asking for the original in that case, but yes.

                                   

                                  Peter, do you know if PageMaker cannot use .ai files?

                                   

                                  Anyway - your answers make me confident that I am not wrong.

                                  Situations which calls for specific formats can show up - but ok - then they must be solved.

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    I just did a quick test in PM7 (no longer have an earlier version running), and I was able to import both .ai and PDF, though neither came in with a transparent background and I don't see a way to fix that.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                      MW Design Level 4

                                      PM6.5:

                                      .EPS

                                      .CDR files from CorelDraw versions 3.0-5.0

                                      AutoCad DXF files

                                      .GEM files

                                      HPGL files (such as those saved from CorelDraw or AutoCad)

                                      Macintosh PICT graphics

                                      Lotus PIC graphics

                                      WordPerfect Graphics versions 1 and 2

                                       

                                      Might have been one or two more. I don't know about PM7 as I never upgraded to it.

                                       

                                      Sometimes all it takes is a little education for the client(s) to accept we might know about file types. Sometimes their requests are valid for where they are located. I get asked for EPS files all the time when it is an Indian client and that is what their service bureau people require.

                                       

                                      In most any other country, PDFs are the flavor of file to send. It can be a touchy thing, the education of a client. And I usually know before I begin what/how they are going to use a file so there is time to walk them through the how to use what they ought to use.

                                       

                                      In the case of offices where Word is King, PNG is about the only thing they can reliably use--but then I am also usually the person making their style sheets so it isn't a big deal.

                                       

                                      Take care, Mike

                                      1 person found this helpful
                                      • 16. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                        Nina_Storm Level 1

                                        Thank you for testing :-)

                                        • 17. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                          Nina_Storm Level 1

                                          :-) thank you Mike, interesting - Some culturel aspects to consider as well.

                                          • 18. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                            Nina_Storm Level 1

                                            One more thing …

                                             

                                            Am I right that saving an Illustrator file as .eps makes it impossible to embed a color profile?

                                             

                                            If I want to do so, saving as .ai or .pdf is the only solution?

                                             

                                            And in a perfect world using .eps would point to creating logo versions for coated as well as uncoated profiles?

                                            • 19. Re: Importance of embedding ICC profiles
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Am I right that saving an Illustrator file as .eps makes it impossible to embed a color profile?

                                               

                                              Yes, you can't save an Illustrator eps with a profile so when it is placed it will be assigned the ID doc's profile.