33 Replies Latest reply: Dec 26, 2012 12:55 PM by Pijetro RSS

    Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray

    Wellsie33

      I shoot video with a Canon XF100 camcorder, MPEG2 1080 30p.

       

      When I go to import it into Premiere Pro CS6 I choose the appropriate codec, "Canon XF MPEG@ 1080 30p".  The original file I shoot, off the CF card, will often be 20 GB+ in size (and looks great on my PC), but, when I use Adobe Encoder to burn it to a Blu Ray disk (that's what my clients want) it compresesses it basically in half, no matter what I do with the settings in Adobe Encoder. I've mucked around all over the place with no success, I'm really frustrated, I need help.

       

      The blu ray disc stores 25 GB of data, I want to burn my original files 'uncompressed' (or at least minimally compressed), is there any way to do that? Basically, I want to retain the full 20GB off the original files as is, to get the best picture.

       

      Is this possible or do I just have to accept the fact that PP CS6 will throw out half my data in the name of compression? The blu ray DVD has the storage capacity, I have the time to encode in the name of quality, any thoughts on how to maximize it?

       

      Help!

       

      Thanks in advance.

       

      Note: I have the most up to date installs for all the CS6 Suites...

        • 1. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
          shooternz Community Member

          Give your clients the source  files on a data disk. 

           

          Do not encode it..which by definition compresses it and loses quality.

           

          My guess is that  your clients actually  have no idea why they are requesting Blu Ray disks.

           

          Give them what they need...not what they ask for. Thats your job.

          • 2. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
            Wellsie33 Community Member

            Thank you for your thoughts, perhaps I should expand on my workflow / client demands.

             

            I shoot hockey games that are typically 60 - 75 minutes long (18 - 25 GB in size). It is a very competitive market in terms of getting paying gigs, so part of my differentiation is to shoot high quality footage and burn to blu-ray, allowing the coach to review the video with the players in a top quality format, ensuring he maintains the focus of his athletes. That's what I do, it's not necessarily the best work flow but I want to be ahead of the curve. I have no doubt that a crystal clear image is more engaging than one that is not, otherwise I would just shoot SD crap.

             

            I burn many files to .mp4 1080 30p and that is a good codec, the files are nice if the coach is quasi-tech savvy, unfortunately, many are not. They simply have no clue.

             

            Most people, however, have now bought a blu-ray player and the quality is spectacular when done right.

             

            I know the blu ray disk can hold 25 GB of data, why do I have to have my original 20 GB file compressed in half, to 10 GB? Is there any way to maintain the original file quality?

             

            I am not handing off 32GB pro quality compact flash cards to coach's who have no idea what to do with the data, especially when they cost a bloody fortune to buy! lol  99.99% of them would have no clue how to edit anything, which is why I have an income source...:)

             

            Any advice is appreciated.

             

            Cheers.

            • 3. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
              the_wine_snob Community Member

              For a BD-Video (as opposed to a BD-Data), you have two options: the BD MPEG-2, and H.264/MPEG-4. The amount of compression for either, and hence the quality, will depend on the Bit-Rate for either. The higher that Bit-Rate, the higher the quality, but the larger the file.

               

              Many feel that the quality of the compression, at the same Bit-Rate, of the H.264/MPEG-4 is the better, but it might depend on the subject matter.

               

              Which CODEC are you using?

              What Bit-Rate are you choosing? Per the BD-spec.:

              BD Video movies have a maximum data transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 48 Mbit/s (for both audio and video data), and a maximum video bit rate of 40 Mbit/s. This compares to HD DVD movies, which have a maximum data transfer rate of 36 Mbit/s, a maximum AV bitrate of 30.24 Mbit/s, and a maximum video bitrate of 29.4 Mbit/s

              Up to the capability of BD players, you can probably raise your Bit-Rate, and improve things greatly.

               

              Good luck,

               

              Hunt

              • 4. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                Wellsie33 Community Member

                I was using everything at the max, I believe it was 40 Mbits/s. My camera records at 50 Mbits/s MPEG2 long GOP, yet there was about a 40% decrease in the size of teh blu-ray file burned to the DVD versus the raw data captured by the camera. I'm just wondering if there's any way, using a Blu Ray format (as opposed to just raw data files), to retain that original camera quality?

                 

                I have tried both the Mpeg-2 and H.264 setttings and it made no difference.

                 

                Thanks for your thoughts, the quality still looks good but I'm wondering if it could be even better...

                 

                Cheers.

                • 5. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                  J. Simon Community Member

                  I'm just wondering if there's any way, using a Blu Ray format to retain that original camera quality?

                   

                  With Adobe tools, probably not.  The original media will need to be transcoded to the Blu-ray specification, especially if any editing at all is involved, and most types of transcoding will involve some degree of quality loss.  This is the norm.

                   

                  However, the quality loss is likely to be fairly negligible, especially using the H.264 Blu-ray export preset.  The file may well be smaller, but that's not necessarily an indication of crappy quality, so don't worry too much about file size.  You're main concern with size will only be that it fits on disk.

                   

                  The larger issue is shooting at 30p, which can't go onto disk as is.  At 30 fps, you're only option is interlaced, and that's where you may be seeing the quality drop. If you want progressive on a Blu-ray, you'll need to shoot at 24p or 60p, with the latter being much more preferable for sports, however only available at 1280 x 720.

                   

                  So the best thing you can do there is either to shoot in 1080i/30, or 720p/60.  You'll have to compromise on interlacing, or resolution.

                  • 6. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                    Wellsie33 Community Member

                    Jim, thank you (and everyone else) for the explanantion.

                     

                    When I put the blu-ray on my 60" LED TV it looks pretty good, I really have no complaints, it is certainly way better than what I used to get with my Sony HDR-FX1 HDV camera. I'm quite certain that my clients will not notice the difference, I just want to offer the best quality possible.

                     

                    I have shot a lot of footage at 1280x720 60p and rendered them out as H.264 1280x720 30p files and they also look good, but a number of blu ray players my clients use will not play that format.

                     

                    Is there any way to upscale the 1280x720 60p to full 1920x1080 30p Mpeg2 or H.264 blu ray to burn to a blu ray?

                     

                    Given the motion while panning and zooming my camera at a hockey game I don't want to shoot interlaced if possible, I find it has the dreaded lines when the picture moves too fast.

                     

                    Cheers.

                    • 7. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                      J. Simon Community Member

                      a number of blu ray players my clients use will not play that format.

                       

                      In fact, none of them will.  Like I said, 30p can't go onto disk as is.  It'll get converted to 60p at 720 or 30i at 1080.  For your 720p/60 original, export it as 720p/60, which does go onto Blu-ray and can be played by all Blu-ray players.

                       

                      Basically what I'm saying is that where Blu-ray or DVD is involved, forget about 30p.  It's a nonexistent standard found only on some cameras.  Don't shoot, edit or export in that format, and you'll get better results.

                      • 8. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                        J. Simon Community Member
                        Given the motion while panning and zooming my camera at a hockey game I don't want to shoot interlaced if possible

                         

                        Actually it's because of all that panning, zooming and motion that you do want to shoot interlaced.  It'll look a lot better than 30p.

                         

                        Or, step down to 720 and shoot 60p.  That will also look a lot better.

                         

                         

                         

                        I find it has the dreaded lines when the picture moves too fast.

                         

                        Only if you mess something up in post.  Most of the professional sporting events you see on TV are shot at 1080i/30 and look quite good.

                        • 9. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                          the_wine_snob Community Member

                          For a chart of the supported formats for BD from Adobe Encore, see this FAQ Entry: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/421178?tstart=0

                           

                          Good luck,

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                            KrisHolder

                            Jim, I find it hard to believe that Premiere Pro CS6 can not preserve 1080 P at 30 fps source video using a BR export.   Given the display platforms we have today 1080p should be the default.

                            I used Avid first and now I am learning Premiere Pro.  It seems I am having way too many export issues pop up like Wellsie33.  Adobe customers should not expect their source to be degraded by the software.  The export presets should be the answer.  Each preset must have minimum source requirements attached.  I hope future releases can fix this soon.

                            • 11. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                              Jeff Bellune ACP

                              It's not Adobe's fault.  The Blu-ray spec doesn't allow 1080p30.  You'll need to get these people to change the spec to get what you want:

                               

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

                               

                              Jeff

                              • 12. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                cfg_2451 Community Member

                                Wellsie33 wrote:

                                 

                                When I go to import it into Premiere Pro CS6 I choose the appropriate codec, "Canon XF MPEG@ 1080 30p".  The original file I shoot, off the CF card, will often be 20 GB+ in size (and looks great on my PC), but, when I use Adobe Encoder to burn it to a Blu Ray disk (that's what my clients want) it compresesses it basically in half, no matter what I do with the settings in Adobe Encoder.

                                 

                                Two things. First, the Blu-ray spec. doesn't allow 1080p30. Second, it specifies, IIRC, 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, while your camera is giving you 4:2:2. If you transcode to 60i, you should see little change in file size just from that. If you transcode to 24p, you'll see the size reduction associated with 3:2 pulldown. But both of these will see a size reduction due to the loss of chroma information in going from 4:2:2 -> 4:2:0.

                                 

                                This isn't normally much of a problem when working in PPro, because PPro works with it's own internal data spec. You only take the compression hit at final output time when you transcode for output to blu-ray. So if you do all your editing, color correction, grading, etc. first, moving between applications via dynamic link, it's not a big deal to do the final transcode.

                                 

                                Where it hurts you, is doing intermediate transcodes, which is what your client is asking you for. So the thing to do might be to explain this (how blu-ray is a subset of what your camera can deliver) to your client. Offer them instead the original files on a BDROM disk. Or offer to give them finished edited output on a standard blu-ray disk. What they are asking you for, is the worst of both worlds.

                                • 13. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                  KrisHolder Community Member

                                  Jeff,

                                  I am a computer scientist and I am very familiar with the BR container format.   Granted there is always player support issues with any format.  But BR products have become quite stable and should be a focus of the Adobe Media Export function.  Evidently Adobe has some Export work to do.  Right now I am experimenting with Export settings trying to preserve 1080 P level source quality in an iPad3 export.  I am surprised to find I must experiment and that the CS6 iPad preset highest quality is 720 P!

                                   

                                  This is why Adobe will eventually be able to maintain the 1080P source quality in a BR Export.  BR selected a container format that has the audio & video multiplexed and based on the MPEG media stream.   Below is the BR supported Resolutions, Frame rates and Aspect ratios.

                                   

                                  1920×1080.    29.97-i16:9

                                  1920×1080.    25-i16:9

                                  1920×1080.    24-p16:9

                                  1920×1080.    23.976-p16:9

                                  1440×1080.    29.97-i4:3

                                  1440×1080.    25-i4:3

                                  1440×1080.    24-p4:3

                                  1440×1080.    23.976-p4:3

                                  1280×720.      59.94-p16:9

                                  1280×720.      50-p16:9

                                  1280×720.      24-p16:9

                                  1280×720.      23.976-p16:9

                                  720×480.         29.97-i4:3 or 16:9

                                  720×576.        25-i4:3 or 16:9

                                   

                                  So you see Jeff, there is no valid reason why Adobe could not keep the 1080 P source quality in a BR Export if Adobe so desired.

                                   

                                  Kris

                                         roundhouse@valp.net

                                  www.roundhouse-valp.com

                                  • 14. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                    Jeff Bellune ACP

                                    Sorry, Kris.  I don't understand your point.  The list you provided of supported BD formats doesn't include 1080p30, so I don't see why you think Adobe can make 1080p30 Blu-ray legal.

                                     

                                    The Blu-ray export format in Premiere Pro is designed to produce files that are Blu-ray legal and can be used in an Encore project to burn or create a spec-legal Blu-ray disc or image file or set of BD folders.

                                     

                                    If all you want are 1080p30 video files that are compressed with the H.264 codec, then you use the H.264 export format, *not* the H.264 Blu-ray export format.  Adobe already supports that export workflow.

                                     

                                    Jeff

                                    • 15. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                      KrisHolder Community Member

                                      Jeff,

                                        Yes, this is a complex topic and best discussed.  The point I am trying to make is this.

                                      BR is a great format for Wesslie33 to put his sports videos on.  It has great resolution and the BR players are ubiquitous.  What we need is a great GUI for users to select the right Media Export for this intended display method.

                                       

                                      A BR MPEG is a well defined and broadly used container format.  I cant create source data.  But if the source data is there to fill the best BR container format, I can write software to transcode any image into the best BR.  I may need to blend, interpolate, mensurate, whatever.  But give me the data and a BR video disc  can be made.

                                       

                                      The Adobe Media Export with dedicated presets is a great start.  But it is definitely a work in progress.  I look forward to the next update!

                                       

                                      Kris

                                             roundhouse@valp.net

                                      www.roundhouse-valp.com

                                      • 16. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                        J. Simon Community Member

                                          Yes, this is a complex topic

                                         

                                        I disagree.  It's fairly simple.  If you want to end up on DVD or Blu-ray, you don't shoot 30p.

                                        • 17. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                          KrisHolder Community Member

                                          Right, in a perfect world we would all record for a specific customer who has a single display platform.   The complexity arises because we dont always know in advance, plus we have material from over the years we want to use to its fullest quality and sometimes we dont even know what the source is.

                                           

                                          Jim has some good advice though, if BR then dont shoot 1080P.  I could use some more pearls like that.  Given CS6 PPro and the desire to have the highest quality video, does anyone know of a good source of recomendations on source formats and targeted display platforms?  For example which source format does PPro deal with the best in its internal format and lead to the most/best Media Exports? 

                                          • 18. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                            the_wine_snob Community Member

                                            Only just a beginning, but we all need to start somewhere, here is the list of formats, supported by Adobe Encore, for BD authoring: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/421178?tstart=0

                                             

                                            Others will likely have some links to lists, to cover more of your questions.

                                             

                                            Good luck,

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                              Pijetro

                                              I do it all the time...In fact, if you're exporting to the web in the future, this would be the preferred method...

                                              30P is the perfect intermediate between film and video...

                                               

                                              Not quite the interlaced look, not quite film. But something in between....

                                              The 30P footage gets flagged out the backend of the DVD/Bluray as interlaced anyways....

                                              • 20. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                KrisHolder Community Member

                                                Bill, Encore, thats perfect, thanks!

                                                  I bit the bullet and joined the Cloud in October when I started the Grandma Project in my recording studio.  I am really liking this.  I have been learning inDesign and Premiere Pro for the Project.   Encore looks perfect for the BR issues... Man, Adobe has the solutions... This sure is a lot of software to learn...

                                                • 21. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                  the_wine_snob Community Member

                                                  I completely understand - a suite of Adobe programs can be daunting to learn. Fortunately, there is great commonality between most of the programs, so it's not as bad, as it might seem.

                                                   

                                                  For PrPro, this is a great, and very helpful (IMHO) resource. For Encore, there is a separate, and very active forum: http://forums.adobe.com/community/encore/encore_general. You will see some familiar "faces" over there, but some others, who really know Encore, but do not use PrPro that much.

                                                   

                                                  Good luck with the Project,

                                                   

                                                  Hunt

                                                  • 22. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                    Wellsie33 Community Member

                                                    Thanks everyone, I appreciate the information and thoughts. I will try encoding a 720x60p onto blu ray and see how that works out, it might be best for themovement involved in what I shoot.

                                                     

                                                    Is it just me or is it kinda crazy that such a popular shooting format, 1280x1080 @ 30p, is NOT supported by blu-ray? Isn't that the main selling point (1920x1080p HD picture quality) of virtually every new LED, LCD and Plasma TV sold in the past several years? Yet it's not a native blu-ray format... seems crazy to me but what do I know?

                                                     

                                                    Cheers,

                                                     

                                                    Dave

                                                    • 23. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                      Pijetro Community Member

                                                      1920x1080@30F is supported on the DVD disc, but not on output...

                                                      The settop player takes the frames, and simply sends out an interlaced signal...In many cases, the televisions, or computer software playback engines, reweave and interpolate it back to a progressive frame...

                                                       

                                                      DVD formats, and BluRay formats were developed with interlaced playback in mind.

                                                      Progressive viewing screens were still in development..

                                                       

                                                      I shoot 1920x1080@30F, because it gets me usable screenshots, web uploads, and it's totally supported within the DVD/Bluray framework. The only difference is, upon export, make sure that you've got the correct format and preset selected.

                                                      The encoder simply takes your 30F, and encodes it as a 60i output...

                                                      • 24. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                        J. Simon Community Member

                                                        Jim has some good advice though, if BR then dont shoot 1080P.

                                                         

                                                        That's not quite what I said.  The advice was: If you're shooting for disk delivery, either DVD or Blu-ray, then don't shoot 30p.  I mentioned nothing about resolution.  1080p/24 is fine for both.

                                                        • 25. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                          J. Simon Community Member

                                                          30P is the perfect intermediate between film and video...

                                                           

                                                          Well, it's an intermediate, but far from perfect.  Yes, it does work fine for web delivery, but so does 24p, which works for everything, and it looks better for most things to boot.

                                                          • 26. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                            J. Simon Community Member

                                                            Is it just me or is it kinda crazy that such a popular shooting format, 1280x1080 @ 30p, is NOT supported by blu-ray?

                                                             

                                                            In professional environments, it's not at all popular.  30p has no place on DVD, Blu-ray or broadcast, the primary professional mediums of delivery.  It's a format found only on some cameras and came after the development of the standards.

                                                            • 27. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                              J. Simon Community Member

                                                              1920x1080@30F is supported on the DVD disc, but not on output...

                                                               

                                                              That's misinformation.  DVD takes only 720 x 480.  And it will only take 24p or 30i.  If you send it anything else, it will be converted before burning.  (Hell, even 24p get's stored on the disk as two interlaced fields.)

                                                               

                                                              DVD players that do allow Progressive output will take one interlaced field, and apply some type of line doubling to it.  It doesn't use the original 30p signal, so there can be some degradation, depending on how well the players deinterlaces.

                                                               

                                                              The short of it is: don't shoot 30p.

                                                              • 28. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                Pijetro Community Member

                                                                Since the original posting was referring to sports, and action, then 24p would be the last thing on my mind...

                                                                 

                                                                As far as sports go, i honestly think that shooting 1280x720@60p, or 1920x1080@60i would be the two only options..

                                                                Run some tests, and see what suits the customers best.

                                                                 

                                                                I personally shoot my wedding videos at 1920x1080@30P. Regardless of the fact that the encoder makes an interlaced signal.

                                                                 

                                                                @Jim.

                                                                What classifies as a professional environment anymore? 30P is fine for many people. I seriously don't see anybody shooting 60i for events anymore. We all know the 24FPS caveats...What else is left?


                                                                • 29. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                  J. Simon Community Member

                                                                  As far as sports go, i honestly think that shooting 1280x720@60p, or 1920x1080@30i would be the two only options..

                                                                   

                                                                  That's what I'm saying.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                    J. Simon Community Member

                                                                    30P is fine for many people.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'd argue only to those who don't know any better.  (And that may well include wedding clients.  But as a fellow wedding videographer, our job is to know better.)

                                                                    • 31. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                      J. Simon Community Member

                                                                      We all know the 24FPS caveats.

                                                                       

                                                                      You've piqued my curiosity.  Such as?

                                                                      • 32. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                        Pijetro Community Member

                                                                        I'd argue only to those who don't know any better.  (And that may well include wedding clients.  But as a fellow wedding videographer, our job is to know better.)

                                                                        Sorry, I DO know better, and that's why i film in 30P. Otherwise, your comment is a bit of an insult.

                                                                         

                                                                        And as for piquing your curiosity with the 24FPS issue, i don't have to tell you how fast a puck can travel, or a racecar moves, in where 24fps is not useful..Strobing has always been an issue for uncontrolled environments such as events or family fun time.

                                                                        When did you ever hear of a sports event being taped/filmed at 24fps??

                                                                         

                                                                        As for the original posters comments on halving the size of output from the original footage...It's a mystery. Unless a few screenshots could be produced, it sounds wrong to not be able to use the native bitrate and framerate for Bluray output, unless of course, the video is way out of spec..(which i doubt)...

                                                                        • 33. Re: Maintaining Maximum Resolution - Conversion to Blu Ray
                                                                          Pijetro Community Member

                                                                          That's misinformation.  DVD takes only 720 x 480.  And it will only take 24p or 30i.  If you send it anything else, it will be converted before burning.  (Hell, even 24p get's stored on the disk as two interlaced fields.)

                                                                          Jim...

                                                                           

                                                                          You've been a long time user on these forums...What the heck are you talking about????

                                                                          I've been a long time encoding enthusiast, before i got into videography and editing...

                                                                           

                                                                          DVD's definately have frames encoded as progressive..The only difference being, is they get output as interlaced through the backend.

                                                                          DVD's definately have full frame 24FPS images on the video stream..The internal flags of the MPEG stream determine the playback method. Wheter it's top field first, or bottom field first...It's called pulldown.

                                                                           

                                                                          Unfortunately, (correct me if i'm wrong) AME doesn't have a native 24FPS encoder, that simply adds the flag in the stream, but rather hard telecines the frame...

                                                                          It's a shame, because you're throwing away an extra 20% of information that didn't need to get encoded..