30 Replies Latest reply on Dec 7, 2012 9:35 AM by Fuzzy Barsik

    `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!

    npags711

      First off, my system properties...

      quad core, 16GB RAM, GTX550Ti graphics card

      Premiere CS5.5

      ---------

      I'm editing multi-cam....

      Two camera's with diff properties -

      Cam #1) 29.97fps + 1.33 PAR + 1440X1080

      Cam #2) 23.97 fps + 1.0 PAR + 1920X1080 = (DSLR)

      The main problem I'm having has to do with the DSLR - cam #2...seems to be making premiere go a little haywire.

      The two big issues =

      A) When opening project, sometimes DSLR footage shows up in the project panel....sometimes it doesn't. It just says media pending. A couple times it's said "media offline".

      I have to quit premiere and start it back up and usually it pops back up...sometimes further opening/closing is required.

      Initially when I imported the files into the various projects (about 13 total proj's for the series I'm producing)....the DSLR footage did not import. It just froze premiere and had to open/close...try until it worked. Some proj's the footage imported right away. Same project settings.

      B) Currently, I'm rendering the video's and about 12 diff times so far, the exports either don't start when I start queue....or they do start but freeze at a given point (5%, 15%, 40% complete).

      I would think this has to do with the DSLR #2 cam but that's what I want your insight on. I then close the proj out + encoder, and reopen and repeat until it works. It's worked for all with exception of one video.

      Why is the DSLR giving such trouble - as listed above?

      Any solutions for this?

      The DSLR plays choppy as well, even when I match sequence exactly to video. But, my computer isn't taxed at all = low CPU/RAM.

      Don't understand it...

      All I know is it's a massive pain in the tush!

      Other details...

      I tried editing via the multicam monitor but the playback was so choppy I decided to just created a nested sequence and edit via timeline.

      The sequence that worked best = specs matching Cam #1 (listed above)...so I went with that.

      Is there a better way to setup the sequence for two diff camera's with diff properties?

      Maybe...right clicking the DSLR footage - interpreting footage - assume frame rate...and maybe other settings?

      Other issues that you may be able to help out with...

      When you create a nested sequence and enable multi-cam - the audio waveform disappears. I tried a few things and searched around for a way to get audio waveform to reappear. Ultimately, I rendered the audio and audio wave pops back up.

      But...

      If I have to close project, switch to another project or the proj crashes, etc.....the rendered audio waveform disappears and I need to re-render again. Is there a way to remedy this? I just need to see the waveform without having to re-render or render at all. I only need one audio track for the two camera's.

      Thanks for your help - really appreciate it.

      P.S. - don't know why it's highlighting my text w/white box...tried fixing but no dice.

        • 1. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          don't know why it's highlighting my text w/white box...tried fixing but no dice.

           

          Fixed.

          • 2. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
            Jim_Simon Level 8

            Is there a better way to setup the sequence for two diff camera's with diff properties?

             

            Honestly, the better way is to shoot using two of the same camera, or at least two cameras capable of the same settings.  Your DSLR footage is fine, your camera 1 footage is less than ideal.  Not much help now, but in the future, get a second DSLR for best results and skip camera 1.

            • 3. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
              npags711 Level 1

              Ok - thanks Jim...

               

              It's the client's camera's so not much to be done there...

               

              I have two more modules to complete and I will go insane if I have to deal with this same bull...

               

              Any insight or idea's towards a solution Jim or anyone (given the camera setup isn't going to change - modules are already shot)?

               

              Thanks

              • 4. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                npags711 Level 1

                and it doesn't have an option to edit my original post now...

                 

                all the text is scrunched together - makes it tougher to read...

                • 5. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  It's the client's camera's so not much to be done there...

                   

                  Convince them they're doing it wrong and the end product will not be as good.

                  • 6. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                    doesn't have an option to edit my original pos

                     

                    Once someone replies, you lose the ability to edit.

                    • 7. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                      Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                      Fix it in the old-fashioned way: transcode your Camera #1 footages with settings that match your Camera #2 ones.

                      • 8. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                        Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                        Theoretically there's no reason why mismatched footage can't be mixed this way, it is after all the headline selling point for Premiere Pro over the competition. Practically, some footage is nastier than others. Prosumer DSLR footage has some of the most complex compression (H.264/AAC) so it places a huge load on Pr when it's doing the internal upsampling and interpolation. If it's edited on a matching timeline  you generally don't see much of a drag thanks to the Mercury Playback Engine, but you're placing DSLR footage at 1:1 PAR onto a DV sequence at 1:1.33 (which in turn needs to be re-dimensioned again so Pr can display your monitors with square pixels). All in all, a huge bunch of pixel-pushing.

                         

                        I agree with Fuzzy - if your system can't cope with the dynamic matching, transcode your DV camera #1 clip into regular 1080p and use a matching sequence for the multicam. Beyond that, you could render proxies for everything.

                         

                        About the multicam audio waveform - sorry but that's how it is; you don't get to see the waveform in the nested timeline, though if you're using a separate audio track in the final edit you can just mute the MC track and drop another one onto the sequence.

                         

                        Your post indicates other issues though - choppy playback is a classic side effect of complex footage but not finding or importing the media at all suggests there's a problem with your storage. What's your disk setup?

                        • 9. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                          npags711 Level 1

                          Thanks Fuzzy and Dave...

                           

                          Dave - disk setup...

                           

                          Everything is on C drive when it comes to adobe files, media cache, etc...

                           

                          All the elements/media (video, images, etc..) for the project are on an external 500GB HDD.

                           

                          There's def. a reason why I'm running into all these problems namely, what's below, but just need to obviously pinpoint what the source of the problem actually is...asap...

                           

                          A) When opening project, sometimes DSLR footage shows up in the project panel....sometimes it doesn't. It just says media pending. A couple times it's said "media offline".

                          I have to quit premiere and start it back up and usually it pops back up...sometimes further opening/closing is required.

                          Initially when I imported the files into the various projects (about 13 total proj's for the series I'm producing)....the DSLR footage did not import. It just froze premiere and had to open/close...try until it worked. Some proj's the footage imported right away. Same project settings.

                           

                          B) Currently, I'm rendering the video's and about 12 diff times so far, the exports either don't start when I start queue....or they do start but freeze at a given point (5%, 15%, 40% complete).

                          I would think this has to do with the DSLR #2 cam but that's what I want your insight on. I then close the proj out + encoder, and reopen and repeat until it works. It's worked for all with exception of one video.

                           

                          Another thing I forgot to add to the above...

                           

                          I'm not able to add these video's the render queue. I need to render each one by one because of the same trouble - the next video in queue after previous is finished, usually doesn't even load to begin rendering. The encoder just gets stuck.

                           

                           

                          Regarding what you said Dave =

                           

                          I agree with Fuzzy - if your system can't cope with the dynamic matching, transcode your DV camera #1 clip into regular 1080p and use a matching sequence for the multicam. Beyond that, you could render proxies for everything.

                           

                          My system does seem to be able to handle it b/c as I said, I have low CPU/RAM usage and I'm GPU accelerated.

                           

                          In terms of playback, I get the same amount of "drag" with mixed footage in a sequence matching Cam #1 than when I match seq. to Cam #2 (DSLR). So more strangenosity! Again, my comp isn't taxed = low CPU/RAM.

                           

                          You guys rec transcoding. Interpreting footage and matching to DSLR wouldn't be effective?

                           

                          You think a mismatch in footage is causing all the problems I've listed? Doesn't seem to be the case.

                           

                          Maybe it's the disk setup as you suggested but I wouldn't think so. Seems to be just a standard setup I've got.

                           

                          Thank you - talk soon

                          • 10. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                            My system does seem to be able to handle it b/c as I said, I have low CPU/RAM usage and I'm GPU accelerated.

                             

                            All the more proof that the CPU/RAM is waiting for your disks to finish their disk activities.

                             

                            First question: How is the external connected? eSATA, FW800/400 or USB2/3?

                             

                            Second question: Given a certain amount of traffic, do you prefer to drive on a 4 lane highway or on a single lane road with traffic lights, allowing traffic from one direction only and stopping the traffic from the other direction? The second situation is what you are actually doing with everything on your C: drive.

                             

                            Media pending is nothing more than traffic waiting for the light to change.

                            • 11. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                              Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                              Tanscoding was proposed as a workaround so that you could finish the project.

                               

                              With some probability either your external HDD or its connection is a bottleneck.

                              However, as you suspect, there is also a chance of footages issue.

                               

                              Since you already presented some of your spec:

                               

                              CPU - i7 quad core;

                              RAM - 16 GB;

                              GPU - GTX550Ti;

                              HDD - ? OS drive; 500 GB ext. HDD;

                              PrPro CS5.5;

                               

                              what are your OS, external HDD speed and system drive spec?

                              Do you have all the applications and drivers updates installed?

                              Are you experiencing this issue when just those DSLR footages are in use or the same things happen with other media files as well?

                              Do you have some 3rd party software, codecs installed?

                              • 12. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                and it doesn't have an option to edit my original post now...

                                 

                                all the text is scrunched together - makes it tougher to read...

                                 

                                Jim has addressed the Edit function.

                                 

                                As for the second part, are you referring to the paragraph spacing, and lack of Line Breaks? If so, please send me a Personal Message (just click on my Profile, and in the upper-right of the page, click on Send Personal Message), and we will see if we can correct things, like Line Breaks.

                                 

                                Good luck,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                  npags711 Level 1

                                  Harm,

                                   

                                  USB.

                                   

                                  I prefer single lane vs. 4 lane highway...I like to take in the scenery but for workflow speed - 4 lane all the way

                                   

                                  This is your suggested setup Harm? = http://forums.adobe.com/thread/662972

                                   

                                  I'm not familiar with many things discussed in that thread but I'm sure I can manage distributing differently.

                                   

                                  I have a feeling that this is not the source of the problem though. I'm no Jedi Yoda when it comes to tech setup and understanding everything about software but that's just my intuition. Willing to test though.

                                   

                                  It hasn't only been media pending....

                                   

                                  As I said = rendering has been ridiculous....I'm not able to add to the render queue - the first render completes if I'm lucky and the next one just doesn't load.

                                   

                                  When I rendered video's one by one = the exports either don't start when I start queue....or they do start but freeze at a given point (5%, 15%, 40% complete).

                                   

                                  playback as well - choppy with DSLR.

                                   

                                  Now, I don't know if those things would be a side effect of the disk setup...

                                   

                                   

                                   


                                  • 14. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                    npags711 Level 1

                                    Meant to get back with you guys yesterday but was busy finishing the rendering...it was an absolute nightmare.

                                     

                                    Fuzzy,

                                     

                                    A couple of the video's got stuck at a certain point over and over. One of them got stuck repeatedly on transition to an image and another got stuck on an image. Others got stuck at given points - live video...not images.

                                     

                                    But the ones that got stuck on images - I had to export the video in two or three parts to get it to work.

                                     

                                    Going to start new module within a day or so...

                                     

                                    Spec:

                                     

                                    Windows 7 Professional

                                     

                                    HDD speed - don't know...do you need to download a software to find that?

                                     

                                    System Drive =

                                    disks.png

                                     

                                     

                                    Application updates - talking about premiere? Yes, everything's up to date with premiere.

                                     

                                    GTX = updated about month ago.

                                     

                                    Drive specs = updated about month ago as well.

                                     

                                    Only experiencing this bullcrap with DSLR - has never happened with any other media.

                                     

                                    No 3rd party installed.

                                     

                                    Thanks Fuzzy

                                    • 15. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                      Your 500 GB Verbatim disk, which I assume to be a USB2 external, is disastrous for performance. Even a new and empty USB2 disk will achieve transfer rates around 20 - 25 MB/s, depending on the number of USB devices attached, but when filled to around 80+%, that transfer rate will decrease even more and become a real bottleneck.

                                       

                                      DSLR material is heavily compressed and needs to be decompressed instantly for fluid playback, requiring lots of space, both memory and hard disk space and that may be where you have the problems.

                                      • 16. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                        Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                        Since Harm generally answered your question, just a couple of notes.

                                         

                                        So as to measure HDD speed you can either use some 3rd party utilities or run built-in winSAT under Command Prompt (important: run Command Prompt in Administrator mode so as to see winSAT test results inside Command Prompt window; otherwise it opens a new window that will be automatically closed on the test finish).

                                         

                                        If that's all Greek to you, just trust Harm.
                                        If your external HDD is heavily defragmented, things are even worse.
                                        Do not rely on Windows defrag utility. Rather exploit Auslogic Disk Defrag.

                                         

                                        Since you have some room on your system drive, as a temporary workaround move your footages on it (at least those DSLR ones).

                                         

                                        And for the long run rebuild your rig.

                                        So as to optimise your config for PrPro in general, check out PPBM website running by Harm.

                                        • 17. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                          npags711 Level 1

                                          Fella's, my apologies for not getting back sooner.

                                           

                                          I was swamped with production. I'm grateful you took the time to get back...don't take my delay in response as a lack of gratitude.

                                           

                                          so...

                                           

                                          Fuzzy you suggest putting footage on C: drive.

                                           

                                          I ran Harm's PPBM test - my scores (although I had chrome open and skype and explorer)

                                           

                                          MPE = "180","256","152","11"

                                           

                                          Software only = "180","256","152","187"


                                          Let me know if this gives any further insight.

                                           

                                          Other than that...if there's nothing else to do than place footage on C: ...then I'll just test that out.

                                          • 18. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                            npags711 Level 1

                                            Let me know when you get a chance on post above from few days ago...

                                             

                                            Thanks

                                            • 19. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                              Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                              Can't comment on your PPBM6 scores, if they are for your external USB drive.

                                              My ones (PPBM5 though) for quite slow (5400 RPM) internal 1TB WD Caviar Green look worser: "153","263","266","169" (software only), - but I haven't experienced any difficulties with editing various H.264 footages so far.

                                               

                                              Regard to temporarily moving footages onto your C: drive, you could have actually tested that so as to see if it gives any differences: copying about 100 GB takes around 30 min - that is much less than several days waiting a reply on the Forum...

                                              • 20. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                npags711 Level 1

                                                Fuzzy - I didn't have the new files for the new modules until today and was busy with other projects - so I'm testing it out this AM.

                                                 

                                                I said I was going to test it...not like I was waiting on you to get back until it was OK to do so...

                                                 

                                                I just commented if there's any other feedback/insight, let me know.

                                                • 21. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                  Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                                  I didn't intend to offend you in any case.

                                                  But actually you could have tested if there were any differences with your 'old' footages since you were experiencing issues with them. And that wouldn't definitely take long, whereas could contribute into nailing your issue down.

                                                  • 22. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                    npags711 Level 1

                                                    right - no worries.

                                                     

                                                    I could of...if I wasn't working around the clock on other proj's...as mentioned

                                                    • 23. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                      npags711 Level 1

                                                      Good news and not so good...

                                                       

                                                      Not getting the same hangups previously described when hosting original footage on C:

                                                       

                                                      The only hiccup that's happened when it comes to that is on rendering - sometimes the render doesn't start - so I close out encoder and shut down the other processes associated, reopen and it works after that.

                                                       

                                                      Not so good = transcoding the non-DSLR cam to match DSLR cams

                                                       

                                                      what do you guys recommend to transcode, in terms of software?

                                                       

                                                      I tested with premiere diff formats and settings and nothing is exporting to the quality that I need.

                                                       

                                                      Quicktime gives me diff information regarding the video settings.

                                                       

                                                      For instance, one of the DSLR cam's says this =

                                                       

                                                      qtime.png

                                                       

                                                      But premiere says this for same video =

                                                       

                                                      prem d.png

                                                       

                                                      Diff data rates, diff sizes/durations..

                                                       

                                                      More of a consideration when it comes to data rate.

                                                       

                                                      I'm now editing 3 camera's = two DSLR's with same settings and another cam (see premiere's properties below on it) =

                                                       

                                                      prem x.png

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      I've tried re-encoding with MPEG and H.264 - varying data rates, sizes, other specs...

                                                       

                                                      but everything degrades quality too substantially.

                                                       

                                                      Is that just the deal...or is there a way to transcode to the DSLR specs while maintaining original quality?

                                                       

                                                      Thanks let me know as soon as you can

                                                      • 24. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                        npags711 Level 1

                                                        Also...

                                                         

                                                        I first tried interpreting the footage to match DSLR cams...

                                                         

                                                        it worked well but the drawback and dealbreaker was that it slowed the audio and video. It extended the video length and made the audio sound like a ransom holder talking to negotiator (super low voice distortion)

                                                         

                                                        That's normal?

                                                         

                                                        Tried diff settings within interpret footage but nothing remedied the problem.

                                                         

                                                        If there's anyway to solve this...we'd be in business

                                                        • 25. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                          Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                                          Apart from the duration there is no a lot of deviations in what you can see in PrPro vs QuickTime. QuickTime displays a movie frame size in the Format field according to the player's current size. Actual frame size - 1920x1080 - is displayed in the Normal Size field.

                                                           

                                                          Bitrate in PrPro is shown in MBytes/sec, whereas in QuickTime in mbits/sec. 1 Byte = 8 bits.

                                                           

                                                          Regard to transcoding software, you can use either Adobe Prelude or Adobe Media Encoder.

                                                           

                                                          Regard to intermediate codecs, have a look at this thread in After Effects Forum so as to save me on some copying-pasting. Bear in mind that transcoding to a production codec requires some disk space, on which you're limited now.

                                                           

                                                          Regard to 'extending' clips length while interpreting your 29.97 fps footages as 23.976 fps ones, yes, that's normal behaviour, since you're telling PrPro, 'Please, palyback those footages at the speed of 23.976 frames per second'. And what should PrPro do with remaining roughly 6 frames?

                                                           

                                                          Actually, you shouldn't reinterpret your footages at all. Just create a sequence out of your DSLR clips, drop there your DV ones as well, and PrPro will try its best to mix them. Yes, if they were exactly the same camera angle, you would probably see some frame mismatch, but they are not. Try, and it may appear you don't need a transcoding at all.

                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                          • 26. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                            npags711 Level 1

                                                            Fuzzy,

                                                             

                                                            Thanks for the clarification on a few things...

                                                             

                                                            I did drop them into a sequence - it works fine (only thing is there's a little lag on playback) - especially when I drop the DSLR's into the DV/29.97fps sequence.

                                                             

                                                            the thing is - when I use a 23.976 sequence - matching DSLR's and export matching settings (and also tested a bunch of other settings in terms of fps/pixel ratio/field order, etc...) - the DV 29.97 cam angle comes out weird.

                                                             

                                                            It looks better in terms of final export when I drop everything in DV sequence - 29.97 etc...

                                                             

                                                            The DSLR's are only slightly affected...not really noticeable.

                                                             

                                                            The drawback with that is sluggish playback.

                                                             

                                                            So what do you suggest is best considering?

                                                             

                                                            Thanks

                                                            • 27. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                              npags711 Level 1

                                                              *side note on hosting video footage on C: for anyone who comes across this post in future and also if it leads to any further insight into the discussion in the present...

                                                               

                                                              When I was encountering all those problems with DSLR footage previously - I dloaded the files via ftp.

                                                               

                                                              This time around, jump drives were sent to me - so obtaining the files that way may be a contributing factor as to why it's acting differently now and barely giving any problems.

                                                               

                                                              C: may be the solution - just wanted to side note the file transfer difference.

                                                               

                                                              I'll prob. test at a later time with these files on the HDD as well.

                                                              • 28. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                                Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                                                It is not clear which sluggish playback your are talking about. Final exporting in your media player, playback in the Multicam Monitor or playback while previewing edited multicam sequence in the Program Monitor?

                                                                 

                                                                Regard to downloading footages via FTP, yes, you could end up with corrupted media files.

                                                                • 29. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                                  npags711 Level 1

                                                                  sluggish = program monitor in multicam seq.

                                                                   

                                                                  multicam monitor as well - but don't like editing with that b/c I've found it more efficient/effective to edit via timeline

                                                                   

                                                                  if I could fix that...it'd be good to go.

                                                                  • 30. Re: `~`* Multi-Cam = DSLR sending me to LOONEY BIN!!
                                                                    Fuzzy Barsik Level 4

                                                                    Nope.

                                                                    The only way I know for improving performance while you're in multicam is using proxies.