11 Replies Latest reply on Aug 31, 2017 2:24 PM by raeben3

    Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X

    miss forms

      I am having major problems re-ordering tags (text and form field) using the Order Panel. When I select a tag from the Order Panel and try to drag it from position #20 up to position #5 it does not work.

      In fact, my tag completely disappears???

       

      I've been working on tryin to get my text tags and my form field texts in the proper order for over a week now with no luck at all. I am also have several problems with 2 text tags merging into 1.

       

      If anyone knows how I can get the reading order to display correctly in the Order Panel that would be great. My docs are failing the accessibility standards set by our office for the province and i need the forms to be compliant with gov acts/legs.

        • 1. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
          CtDave Level 5

          Not a "solution" - just an observation.

          .

          The structure tree establishes "accessibility"; not the Order panel's content.

          Any manipulation of PDF tags/elements must occur by working in the structure tree from within the tags panel.

          .

          Be well...

          • 2. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
            raeben3 Level 3

            CT Dave is correct.  The structure tree is used as the reading order by screen readers.  The structure tree is defined in the Tags Panel.  As long as "use document structure" is selected in the Page Thumbnails/PagesPanel /Page  Properties / Tab order tab " your document should read properly. 

             

            As to whether it meets the legal standards in your jurisdiction... well some cllient requirements used to  include the "Content Panel" match but --  the "Order Panel"?  , I can think of none  that does.

             

            Are you referring to the form field "Tab Order" or the Order Panel?  Working with Form Fields the Tab Order should match the Tags Panel reading order and this can be a bear to work out sometimes.

             

            I know working within the Content Panel can cause unexpected changes in the appearance of the page. There is definitely a trick to it. It seems the Order panel is likewise "buggy" (at least from a user's perspective). I have had Tags occasionally "disappear" in the Tags Panel if they are inadvertently moved "on top of" instead of under or over another Tag. So it doesn't surprise me that this would happen in other panels.  You have to position them "just so". 

             

            I am in the States and not familiar with Provincial code--could you forward a URL or cite? Client standards may have requirements regarding elements or situations that may but do not necessarily affect accessibility. Perhaps they are  trying to cover as many bases as possible or may lack a full understanding of document accessibility. Government standards are usually more general.  Are there other accessibility workers in your Province that you can refer to for guidance on this?

             

            If matching the order panel to the reading order is  the standard then you will need to examine how your documents are being made, and under what circumstances the Order Panel is or is not correct.  Start with a simple document and work up from there. If you are creating documents in Word with text boxes, figures (Not to Mention Form Fields) you will likely have problem as Word does not always manage to arrange lists or Figures in the correct order in Acrobat's Tags Panel.   I would  be interested in seeing the document you are having problems with or a similar one.  

             

            Good luck!

            • 3. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
              liaisondesign

              Hi Raeban, I have just come across this problem today 4/11/12. We had a test file with forms, filling in boxes - disappearing behind boxes, images etc. So I created the boxes, images etc on another layer in the background within InDesign, so I kept all the text on one layer, and graphics on the other. So when exporting the tagged PDF with 'Create Acrobat Layers' selected it stopped the text from going behind objects (disappearing). and it worked for me

               

              Hope it helps for you

               

              Good Luck!

              • 4. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                raeben3 Level 3

                Thanks for the suggestion.  This sounds like a plan when using Indesign particularly for small documents. I wonder if it places the graphics in the correct reading order?  I often anchor graphics in the text flow in Indesign, which I think would preclude this.   So many people use Word for everything, I wonder though if using the Create Acrobat Layers would help in Word.  Definitely worth trying next time and thanks again for the suggestion. 

                • 5. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                  GuyLibido

                  If you adjust reading order and have dissappearing text, it can be corrected in the content panel; you need to move the artifacted container (the offending layer) ABOVE the element you can't see.

                  • 6. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                    liaisondesign Level 1

                    For me anyway, the reading order worked a treat, as I kept the text in running order within columns, and the graphics like images and tables flow within the text. I dont think it will read properly if images/graphics are placed in independently, so reading order within acrobat is essential.

                     

                    GuyLibido, is absolutly correct, that way works brilliant. So both ways will help you. (Right Click the panel on the left to bring up Content Panel).

                    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cLZNuob6oAoJ:acrobatusers.com/tutoria ls/editing-text-using-acrobats-content-pane+show+content+panel+in+acrobat&cd=1&hl=en&ct=cl nk&client=safari

                     

                    Word doesn't have the option for acrobat layers unfortunatly, so GuyLibido's way is the only option. As far as I know, InDesign has that option.

                    • 7. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                      smashkirk Level 1

                      Yes, but by moving the order in the content panel, it will also change the reading order again so you're back to where you started. Doesn't work.

                      • 8. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                        smashkirk Level 1

                        Sorry to be so negative, but this whole process of reordering elements is riddled with problems. It may work fine with simple documents, but with real-world layouts it is extremely cumbersome. Adobe should really put more time into fixing this. I've wasted so many hours trying to make a proper accessible PDF, it's truly a nightmare.

                        • 9. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                          Patryk with the Y Level 1

                          Yes, these elements like tags and order panel are very fragile. I'm working on 128 pages document, making pdf accessible. When i start working on page 120 i spotted that all my tags are gone but still there is hierarchy order in my Order panel. Is there any chance that document still can be accesible when my tags are gone? How i can establish the tags again?

                          • 10. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                            raeben3 Level 3

                            There are 3 panels to consider: The Tags Panel, the Content Panel and the Reading Order panel. 

                             

                            The Tags Panel defines the Structure of the document and, in current versions of Acrobat (XI or DC)  this is used by Assistive Technology such as screen readers to "read" the document.   (This is provided you have set the "Tab Order" to use Document Structure.)

                            So the Tags Panel is where things must be in the correct order, reading from top to bottom, for the document to be accessible.  The other panels, not so much. 

                             

                            Sometimes it is not possible to get things in the right order in the Content Panel and in the Tags Panel. For example, I have a document which places a Heading1 on top of a graphic.  If I place the Figure tag  in correct order in the Tags Panel and the Content Panel, it will always be before the Heading tag in the Order panel, even though the Heading must read first.  Therefore, I choose the one that matters most:  the Tags panel. 

                             

                            Test it with a screen reader and you will see if it reads properly.  Save as Accessible Text and you can also check the reading order.  If your files meets all other requirements of accessibility except for that, you should be good to go. Some older versions of screen readers had a problem with this but I see no problems in either NVDA or Jaws today, provided the Tag Panel is correct.

                            • 11. Re: Re-ordering tags using ORDER panel doesnt work in Acrobat X
                              raeben3 Level 3

                              Have done incremental backups?  When did you lose the tags? 

                               

                              I do not have tags drop out in the Acrobat XI, but I don't work  in the Content or Order Panels that much any more.  As part of my workflow, I convert all graphics to bitmaps (also called "flattening graphics") and sometimes eliminate FormX objects, if possible.  This helps ensure stability, but can be very time consuming. I rarely have to move things about in the Content and Order panels at all unless the document is exceedingly complex.

                               

                              Good luck!